Mark .Y. 352 Posted May 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, sonyc said: Thanks Monty...(I have no reactions left to give). Your last point is interesting. Brown bailed out the bank and sold lots of gold. It does beg the question though that borrowing your way out of a hole (we now know) has always been possible, even though all we would hear between about 2015 and 2018 was that there was no magic money tree. Sunak's measures (and even the pre pandemic budget) will borrow more than ever. Maynard Keynes returns! (Quick side story....My old lecturer going back a long time ...always believed we should build many beautiful buildings -that people would visit forever and spend money etc - and these buildings would take many hundreds of years to build using loads of labour. Government's would fund. A very simplistic view but he passionately believed it was part of what we should do as a country!). I think he may well have had a very good point. After all, some of the most visited places in the country are ancient castles, stately homes etc 🙂 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bill 1,788 Posted May 31, 2020 Just now, Van wink said: Your equating moderate people with the far right, is only further evidence of how extreme you are, and I repeat it’s people like you that made Labour an irrelevance in terms of a prospective governing party i have been a party member in the past and may well join again if clowns like you are put back where you belong, as an amusing but irrelevant side show. moderate ? do us a favour hand crank what is moderate about constantly posting vile abuse directed toward Diane Abbott and exposing your, and the Tory party, lies is not extreme, it is a necessary part of political discussion now run along, stop lying and bring back BB who coincidentally has 'disappeared' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Mark .Y. said: I think he may well have had a very good point. After all, some of the most visited places in the country are ancient castles, stately homes etc 🙂 Yes, he was a lovely eccentric. And his view was akin to going back to the middle ages if you think about it. Yet, I've always remembered his throwaway comment. I think his main point was building things of beauty and interest, working and developing all kinds of skills sets. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,354 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 13 hours ago, Mark .Y. said: Agreed, I expect him to be gone. Might be a "resign the position to spend more time with his family" but he will obviously have been pushed into it. Just one point there Marko, it'll be " spend more time with his Families". Just as Ryam Giggs retired to spend more time with his brothers family and jon Terry with his team mates family. So, three points then . Apologies, thought I'd posted that earlier. But yes, He will slink off. Edited May 31, 2020 by wcorkcanary 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Bill said: moderate ? do us a favour hand crank what is moderate about constantly posting vile abuse directed toward Diane Abbott and exposing your, and the Tory party, lies is not extreme, it is a necessary part of political discussion now run along, stop lying and bring back BB who coincidentally has 'disappeared' That’s just more evidence of what a nutter you are Bill, as I said an amusing side show but never offering the prospect of any serious political opposition and prospect of government. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Monty13 2,256 Posted May 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, sonyc said: Thanks Monty...(I have no reactions left to give). Your last point is interesting. Brown bailed out the bank and sold lots of gold. It does beg the question though that borrowing your way out of a hole (we now know) has always been possible, even though all we would hear between about 2015 and 2018 was that there was no magic money tree. Sunak's measures (and even the pre pandemic budget) will borrow more than ever. Maynard Keynes returns! (Quick side story....My old lecturer going back a long time ...always believed we should build many beautiful buildings -that people would visit forever and spend money etc - and these buildings would take many hundreds of years to build using loads of labour. Government's would fund. A very simplistic view but he passionately believed it was part of what we should do as a country!). The borrowing argument is largely ideological, that’s why I said I find it tired as I’ve basically seen people arguing ideology over austerity the majority of my adult life. Ultimately though you are right the option is there and given no choice it’s the route this Government has taken. My personal view on government borrowing is as long as it’s borrowing for Long term investment during normal times why wouldn’t we? Whereas while the argument of whether what’s been cut was correct is also often ideological, there’s some far more objective examples of right and wrong. As for the Gold, it was short term thinking, simple as that and one of the problems of our democracy. My main issue with the Blair/Brown years though from the financial perspective is there PFI use, saddling lots of authorities with long term debt. I suppose in some ways I’m philosophically aligned with your lecturer. If we are borrowing money to pay our citizens for something long term and useful to society I’d be all for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Van wink said: Happy to discuss the 2004 act and the Housing and Planning Act if you wish Not especially! Too much a busman's holiday. Yet, further examples of rolling back of the state. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 A 9 minutes ago, sonyc said: Not especially! Too much a busman's holiday. Yet, further examples of rolling back of the state. “Rolling back of the state” really? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, Monty13 said: The borrowing argument is largely ideological, that’s why I said I find it tired as I’ve basically seen people arguing ideology over austerity the majority of my adult life. Ultimately though you are right the option is there and given no choice it’s the route this Government has taken. My personal view on government borrowing is as long as it’s borrowing for Long term investment during normal times why wouldn’t we? Whereas while the argument of whether what’s been cut was correct is also often ideological, there’s some far more objective examples of right and wrong. As for the Gold, it was short term thinking, simple as that and one of the problems of our democracy. My main issue with the Blair/Brown years though from the financial perspective is there PFI use, saddling lots of authorities with long term debt. I suppose in some ways I’m philosophically aligned with your lecturer. If we are borrowing money to pay our citizens for something long term and useful to society I’d be all for it. Agree with this strongly M. The Blair/Brown era often felt to me as an extension to Thatcher's market economics too (with obvious tweaks). PFI and performance management regimes abounded. The latter bringing targets and KPI's that were poorly understood and were applied bluntly ...bringing with them the wrong behaviours. And yet we still have these meaningless targets now! Agree too about long term investment. But I won't stray further (or may get into Brexit territory). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,354 Posted May 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, sonyc said: Yes, he was a lovely eccentric. And his view was akin to going back to the middle ages if you think about it. Yet, I've always remembered his throwaway comment. I think his main point was building things of beauty and interest, working and developing all kinds of skills sets. Agree 100% Sonyco , this works from the bottom up and vice versa.At street level our local councils no longer employ the Valley boys, who would spend the year clearing all the drains and culverts on a country road, trimming hedges and various small pothole filling.In the year, all jobs were seen to.Things were kept pretty ship shape and the guys had a job for life , council rates ..decent money and a pension. As they reached 65 they were never replaced. Now , every few years some Contrator turns up and does a very rough job , huge culverts, roadside gulleys you could lose a wheel in, Potholes everywhere cos the drains are only cleared every few years and they charge a fortune due to traffic management regs and various other red tape. Likewise they are building very little of true worth and longevity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 2 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said: Agree 100% Sonyco , this works from the bottom up and vice versa.At street level our local councils no longer employ the Valley boys, who would spend the year clearing all the drains and culverts on a country road, trimming hedges and various small pothole filling.In the year, all jobs were seen to.Things were kept pretty ship shape and the guys had a job for life , council rates ..decent money and a pension. As they reached 65 they were never replaced. Now , every few years some Contrator turns up and does a very rough job , huge culverts, roadside gulleys you could lose a wheel in, Potholes everywhere cos the drains are only cleared every few years and they charge a fortune due to traffic management regs and various other red tape. Likewise they are building very little of true worth and longevity. There is some truth here I agree, the value of public service has indeed been lost Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 1 minute ago, Van wink said: A “Rolling back of the state” really? Right to Buy extensions? Length of tenancies? Short term tenancies? Yes, starter homes was more egalitarian yet if you see the thrust of policy of many Conservative administrations certainly (though not all) it aligns. Assuming we are talking 2016 in this instance btw. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 59 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said: Agree 100% Sonyco , this works from the bottom up and vice versa.At street level our local councils no longer employ the Valley boys, who would spend the year clearing all the drains and culverts on a country road, trimming hedges and various small pothole filling.In the year, all jobs were seen to.Things were kept pretty ship shape and the guys had a job for life , council rates ..decent money and a pension. As they reached 65 they were never replaced. Now , every few years some Contrator turns up and does a very rough job , huge culverts, roadside gulleys you could lose a wheel in, Potholes everywhere cos the drains are only cleared every few years and they charge a fortune due to traffic management regs and various other red tape. Likewise they are building very little of true worth and longevity. Absolutely. In my place they had two fellas who did all the horticultural tasks (and leave their equipment overnight in residents gardens). Just one example. As mentioned earlier it's sad what has been lost (but I'm now 60 and no doubt will be seen as an old fogey!). ...."yeah, right 'ol man" Ps. Will come back to this thread as I'm walking the dog in my avatar now (she is giving me the signs) Edited May 31, 2020 by sonyc had not has Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 5 minutes ago, sonyc said: Right to Buy extensions? Length of tenancies? Short term tenancies? Yes, starter homes was more egalitarian yet if you see the thrust of policy of many Conservative administrations certainly (though not all) it aligns. Assuming we are talking 2016 in this instance btw. I was taking about regulation of the private sector by LA, In the main by public health inspectors, or now EHO’s. That seemed to be the thrust of our discussion. Edited May 31, 2020 by Van wink Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Van wink said: I was taking about regulation of the private sector by LA, In the main by public health officers, or now EHO’s. That seemed to be the thrust of our discussion. Aha, should have qualified my area is the social housing side (associations for example but not on the new build side ... the social side, helping folk more disadvantaged). Like a lot of public services, housing was privatised largely in the late 90s and especially the early 2000s. The break meant that EHO's (who were once more close working colleagues - though working for councils) the relationship became much more separate / split / even adversarial. It was good in some ways, but arguably investment always needed to be governmental. Investment levels fell so much after the 1974 re-organisation especially that eventually it forced the privatisation agenda. But this is the wrong thread (C19) isn't it. Edited May 31, 2020 by sonyc Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Surfer 1,547 Posted May 31, 2020 Ah well, back on topic. A very encouraging report. I hope that there is more evidence of this. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-virus-idUSKBN2370OQ?taid=5ed3fd86710ac20001b0d575&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter ROME (Reuters) - The new coronavirus is losing its potency and has become much less lethal, a senior Italian doctor said on Sunday. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 12 minutes ago, sonyc said: Aha, should have qualified my area is the social housing side (associations for example but not on the new build side ... the social side, helping folk more disadvantaged). Like a lot of public services, housing was privatised largely in the late 90s and especially the early 2000s. The break meant that EHO's (who were once more close working colleagues - though working for councils) the relationship became much more separate / split / even adversarial. It was good in some ways, but arguably investment always needed to be governmental. Investment levels fell so much after the 1974 re-organisation especially that eventually it forced the privatisation agenda. But this is the wrong thread (C19) isn't it. Wrong thread indeed, was only trying to relate this to the role of EHO’s and funding. I suspect we may have rubbed shoulders in the past if you worked in Norfolk, not now of course as social distancing would be the norm.😀 Edited May 31, 2020 by Van wink Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wcorkcanary 4,354 Posted May 31, 2020 19 minutes ago, sonyc said: Absolutely. In my place they has two fellas who did all the horticultural tasks (and leave their equipment overnight in residents gardens). Just one example. As mentioned earlier it's sad what has been lost (but I'm now 60 and no doubt will be seen as an old fogey!). ...."yeah, right 'ol man" Ps. Will come back to this thread as I'm walking the dog in my avatar now (she is giving me the signs) She's a beaut Sonyco, we had a scruffy little wire haired fella till last November, our Spaniel misses him big time as do we. PS I admire you fellas with the energy to discuss your political views at length. Fair play to ye as I dont have the patience . Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 5 minutes ago, Surfer said: Ah well, back on topic. A very encouraging report. I hope that there is more evidence of this. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-virus-idUSKBN2370OQ?taid=5ed3fd86710ac20001b0d575&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter ROME (Reuters) - The new coronavirus is losing its potency and has become much less lethal, a senior Italian doctor said on Sunday. This stuff is fascinating surfer and far more interesting than the other nonsense. Having said that I do wonder if some of this stuff about the virus losing potency is politically motivated to get everyone back to work. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark .Y. 352 Posted May 31, 2020 25 minutes ago, wcorkcanary said: Agree 100% Sonyco , this works from the bottom up and vice versa.At street level our local councils no longer employ the Valley boys, who would spend the year clearing all the drains and culverts on a country road, trimming hedges and various small pothole filling.In the year, all jobs were seen to.Things were kept pretty ship shape and the guys had a job for life , council rates ..decent money and a pension. As they reached 65 they were never replaced. Now , every few years some Contrator turns up and does a very rough job , huge culverts, roadside gulleys you could lose a wheel in, Potholes everywhere cos the drains are only cleared every few years and they charge a fortune due to traffic management regs and various other red tape. Likewise they are building very little of true worth and longevity. Isn't it all a matter of costs though wcc. The Local Authority would simply not have the spare cash to employ those boys now. Even before the pandemic, I have had an uncomfortable feeling that, as a nation, we simply don't pay enough tax. Maybe if we want a better, fairer society - we have to pay for it. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said: Isn't it all a matter of costs though wcc. The Local Authority would simply not have the spare cash to employ those boys now. Even before the pandemic, I have had an uncomfortable feeling that, as a nation, we simply don't pay enough tax. Maybe if we want a better, fairer society - we have to pay for it. It’s a choice isn’t it. As for local services, I’m out of touch but suspect the council tax cap has been lifted, stand to be corrected if I’m wrong. But if that’s true it does give us the chance to vote for the level of local services we want which will relate to our Council Tax. Council Tax is ripe for review of course Edited May 31, 2020 by Van wink Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark .Y. 352 Posted May 31, 2020 11 minutes ago, Surfer said: Ah well, back on topic. A very encouraging report. I hope that there is more evidence of this. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-italy-virus-idUSKBN2370OQ?taid=5ed3fd86710ac20001b0d575&utm_campaign=trueAnthem%3A+Trending+Content&utm_medium=trueAnthem&utm_source=twitter ROME (Reuters) - The new coronavirus is losing its potency and has become much less lethal, a senior Italian doctor said on Sunday. Would be fantastic news if true. We had speculated on another thread about the possibility of the virus mutating and becoming weaker. Hopefully that is the case. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mark .Y. 352 Posted May 31, 2020 3 minutes ago, Van wink said: It’s a choice isn’t it. As for local services, I’m out of touch but suspect the council tax cap has been lifted, stand to be corrected if I’m wrong. But if that’s true it does give us the chance to vote for the level of local services we want which will relate to our Council Tax. Council Tax is ripe for review of course Yes, I guess at the local elections it would require each party to set out their plans and costings very clearly so that people could make a choice. Unfortunately, I think most people vote for the main party they support without really looking into local issues too much. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 10 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said: Yes, I guess at the local elections it would require each party to set out their plans and costings very clearly so that people could make a choice. Unfortunately, I think most people vote for the main party they support without really looking into local issues too much. That’s where we need to change, Things are far to centralised in the U.K. insofar as choice over local service provision.. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 32 minutes ago, Van wink said: Wrong thread indeed, was only trying to relate this to the role of EHO’s and funding. I suspect we may have rubbed shoulders in the past if you worked in Norfolk, not now of course as social distancing would be the norm.😀 All my work has been up north VW (two main roles alongside, 32 and 25 years respectively). Would have been great being back in Norfolk. May still move back there in the next year. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 32 minutes ago, Mark .Y. said: Isn't it all a matter of costs though wcc. The Local Authority would simply not have the spare cash to employ those boys now. Even before the pandemic, I have had an uncomfortable feeling that, as a nation, we simply don't pay enough tax. Maybe if we want a better, fairer society - we have to pay for it. I agree with higher taxes and yet ensuring you get brilliant local services to go with them. I like the idea of Sweden's system (but am no expert on the matter ... therefore the reality may not be what it cracks up to be). They pay high taxes yet with high wages comparatively alongside good public services. If anyone knows more then I'd like to know (alongside their C19 response, just to bring us back on topic 😉). 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BigFish 1,988 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Barbe bleu said: On that analysis the question is how much did the old system budget for contact tracing and how much did PHE budget for at the start of this. That would answer my question but let's not bother as neither of us can find out the answer eadily as it involves a lot of authorities. No, let's bother. Turns out that the Tories cut £1billion from the budgets for public health services from 2015 (by which time it had already been cut by 3.9% each year, on year). Health charities make urgent call for £1 billion a year to reverse cuts to public health funding Remember Tory cuts cost lives. Edited May 31, 2020 by BigFish Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Van wink 2,994 Posted May 31, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, BigFish said: No, let's bother. Turns out that the Tories cut £1billion from the budgets for public health services from 2015 (by which time it had already been cut by 3.9% each year, on year). Health charities make urgent call for £1 billion a year to reverse cuts to public health funding Remember Tory cuts cost lives. Which public health services BF, it’s a very wide field ranging from health promotion to infectious disease investigation? In my experience under governments of all colours public health is seen as a Cinderella service, easy to make cuts as there are no immediate obvious effects. Investment in Public health is a long term policy option which no government is keen to invest in because they don’t get the political benefit of immediate returns. This is one of the many reasons why Health should be lifted out of the political to and fro and funded properly with a long term strategic plan. Edited May 31, 2020 by Van wink 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sonyc 5,541 Posted May 31, 2020 Maybe the health service will be funded properly ahead given what has happened. A chance really for a re-set. Yet, somehow the cynic in me feels worried we go back to square one (or worse if those US sell off stories are true). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Trevor Hockey's Beard 528 Posted May 31, 2020 In a year's time there won't be enough money in the Government's coffers to buy a flat-white at Nero's. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites