New Labour Leader

[Jools 584]

10 hours ago, Herman said:

You just don't want to see it. 

Well, Herminge, the same as Fen Canary, I see nothing Far-Right in the policies of the conservative Party...

They are in fact the most liberal I've ever witnessed in a conservative Party.

[horsefly 4,318]

19 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

According to many on here, and indeed numerous contributors to the Guardian, Britain is a racist, bigoted place, yet it appears that yet again the far right enjoys no support at all, and indeed haven’t as far back as I can remember. In fact we seem to be one of the few European nations where the far right fails at every election, compared to Le Pen in France, the AfD in Germany, Vox is Spain etc

I'm afraid you haven't paid the slightest attention to the different electoral systems at work in those countries. You coveniently forget to mention that left wing parties and the Greens get far more seats too; it's what happens when you have an electoral system that doesn't disregard the votes of millions of people as FPTP does. And as for far right policies of the Tories, they don't get much more right wing than the "hostile environment" policy that saw the wrongful deportation of many Windrush citizens.

[Icecream Snow 762]

9 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

It might help to give the wording of the Balfour Declaration, by the then British foreign secretary, which was used as justification for the Jewish people to move to Palestine:

'His Majesty’s Government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.'

There are three points to make about that. Supposedly Balfour almost immediately regretted the declaration, because he saw trouble ahead. Secondly, the declaration refers to  a 'national home' rather than a 'national state'. Thirdly, and presumably why Balfour foresaw trouble, whatever one thinks about the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine, it clearly has extremely prejudiced the rights of the non-Jews who were then and are now living there.

As my history teacher would say, we signed the McMahon letter supporting an Arab state, had the Balfour declaration to support the Jewish reformation of Israel, and signed the Sykes-Picot agreement with the French to ignore both of them and carve the resources up between the two countries.

Classic British diplomacy! 😛

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, Jools said:

Well, Herminge, the same as Fen Canary, I see nothing Far-Right in the policies of the conservative Party...

They are in fact the most liberal I've ever witnessed in a conservative Party.

But its the right wing followers like yourself that post on here that purportedly call us on the left extreme.

[Fen Canary 879]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

But its the right wing followers like yourself that post on here that purportedly call us on the left extreme.

I wouldn’t call you extreme, though in my opinion the likes of Momentum in Labour would be closer to the definition of far left than the likes of the ERG of the Tories to the far right.

I also believe that if Starmer is serious about turning Labour into an electoral force again he needs to essentially kick that wing out of the party. Whilst the BLM, trans rights, identity politics etc may be in vogue in a few middle class university areas, it simply doesn’t command anywhere near enough support anywhere else.

It’s not even the causes that turn people off, as you’d be hard pressed to find many people who believe that black lives don’t matter, or that trans people should be mistreated. It’s the attitudes of those that follow these causes almost religiously, with the threats, attempts to get people sacked for a slip of the tongue or a differing opinion, or the social media pile ons that cause ordinary people to push back. You simply have to witness posters on here such as Horsefly and Herman who regularly refer to anybody with a different opinion to themselves as bigots and Nazis.

Due to the exaggerated importance the media currently places on social media, that’s the perception that a lot of people currently have of the Labour Party and its supporters, and it’s something Starmer will have to change if he ever wants to make inroads into working class areas 

[Fen Canary 879]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

I'm afraid you haven't paid the slightest attention to the different electoral systems at work in those countries. You coveniently forget to mention that left wing parties and the Greens get far more seats too; it's what happens when you have an electoral system that doesn't disregard the votes of millions of people as FPTP does. And as for far right policies of the Tories, they don't get much more right wing than the "hostile environment" policy that saw the wrongful deportation of many Windrush citizens.

I agree the electoral system makes it harder for small parties to make inroads, though that didn’t stop UKIP getting around 10% a few years ago, it just didn’t translate into seats. However do you believe that if we switched to PR the likes of the BNP would start enjoying the same popularity as those parties I mentioned, because I personally don’t see it. Even during the race riots up north at the turn of the century and media circus around it the far right still didn’t crack 1% of the vote.

As for Windrush, that wasn’t a single policy that was designed to discriminate against elderly West Indians. It was more to do with the incompetence of the Home Office, which is a recurring theme in UK politics, than racism. A combination of a clampdown on illegal immigration, the previous government doing away with the landing cards from the 60’s and a lack of common sense from the immigration department (which is quite common with most immigration departments around the world I’ve had the misfortune of dealing with) led to those poor people being unable to prove they’d entered the country legally and incorrectly deported. It was disgusting and it shouldn’t have happened, but it’s not an example of a far right policy 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

16 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I wouldn’t call you extreme, though in my opinion the likes of Momentum in Labour would be closer to the definition of far left than the likes of the ERG of the Tories to the far right.

I also believe that if Starmer is serious about turning Labour into an electoral force again he needs to essentially kick that wing out of the party. Whilst the BLM, trans rights, identity politics etc may be in vogue in a few middle class university areas, it simply doesn’t command anywhere near enough support anywhere else.

It’s not even the causes that turn people off, as you’d be hard pressed to find many people who believe that black lives don’t matter, or that trans people should be mistreated. It’s the attitudes of those that follow these causes almost religiously, with the threats, attempts to get people sacked for a slip of the tongue or a differing opinion, or the social media pile ons that cause ordinary people to push back. You simply have to witness posters on here such as Horsefly and Herman who regularly refer to anybody with a different opinion to themselves as bigots and Nazis.

Due to the exaggerated importance the media currently places on social media, that’s the perception that a lot of people currently have of the Labour Party and its supporters, and it’s something Starmer will have to change if he ever wants to make inroads into working class areas 

Starmer may well want Labour electable at any cost. But so many members do not. We want Labour elected with what we consider the right policies.

Momentum we/are almost anarchic in their attitude. I believe some of them were genuine but it became a gathering for all kinds of protest groups and its rules meant you had to join Labour. And at its heart it wanted much more say by the members than Parliamentarians.

In the end it be came almost a paradox of What have the Romans ever done for us. It became a incubator for more extreme advocates of anti racism, anti Israel, pro united Ireland.

Most of us members while agreeing with the sentiment, wanted evolution not revolution. And believing that progress has been made we were accused of being against them because we weren't with them.

I disagree with those who say older Labour values have no place in today's society. Public ownership is not just a Marxist idea. Many countries, not Marxist, have industries in the public domain.

While energy, rail and communication are private, the shareholders will always come first. And the pandemic has shown that public ownership of the health system was essential.

[Fen Canary 879]

17 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Starmer may well want Labour electable at any cost. But so many members do not. We want Labour elected with what we consider the right policies.

Momentum we/are almost anarchic in their attitude. I believe some of them were genuine but it became a gathering for all kinds of protest groups and its rules meant you had to join Labour. And at its heart it wanted much more say by the members than Parliamentarians.

In the end it be came almost a paradox of What have the Romans ever done for us. It became a incubator for more extreme advocates of anti racism, anti Israel, pro united Ireland.

Most of us members while agreeing with the sentiment, wanted evolution not revolution. And believing that progress has been made we were accused of being against them because we weren't with them.

I disagree with those who say older Labour values have no place in today's society. Public ownership is not just a Marxist idea. Many countries, not Marxist, have industries in the public domain.

While energy, rail and communication are private, the shareholders will always come first. And the pandemic has shown that public ownership of the health system was essential.

I agree with large parts of what you say, economically I lean more to the left than the right, and I think a majority in the seats recently lost to the Tories do too. Paradoxically many of the seats Labour have gained have a much more globalist, free market attitude to finances than the rest of the country.

The Tories messaging has currently found the sweet spot of moving to the left economically with talk of levelling up and support in deprived areas whilst also appealing to small c conservative views, which is exactly the type of voters Labour traditionally called their own. Labour by contrast have swung massively leftward culturally which I’ve said previously enjoys little to no support nationally, whilst seemingly offering very little difference to the Tories economically.

Ultimately needs to choose a path to take. It can choose to listen to the concerns of those it needs to win back, and campaign on bread and butter issues such as law and order with more police, more doctors and nurses, less low skilled immigration and better pay and conditions for workers, or it can go the Momentum route and descend into a student protest movement.

I personally hope for the former, as I wouldn’t want to live in a single party state, and as my views have traditionally straddled both parties I believe having both of them pushing each other is good for the country as a whole. Unfortunately I can see them heading more towards the second route into oblivion 

[TheGunnShow 6,029]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

I agree the electoral system makes it harder for small parties to make inroads, though that didn’t stop UKIP getting around 10% a few years ago, it just didn’t translate into seats. However do you believe that if we switched to PR the likes of the BNP would start enjoying the same popularity as those parties I mentioned, because I personally don’t see it. Even during the race riots up north at the turn of the century and media circus around it the far right still didn’t crack 1% of the vote.

As for Windrush, that wasn’t a single policy that was designed to discriminate against elderly West Indians. It was more to do with the incompetence of the Home Office, which is a recurring theme in UK politics, than racism. A combination of a clampdown on illegal immigration, the previous government doing away with the landing cards from the 60’s and a lack of common sense from the immigration department (which is quite common with most immigration departments around the world I’ve had the misfortune of dealing with) led to those poor people being unable to prove they’d entered the country legally and incorrectly deported. It was disgusting and it shouldn’t have happened, but it’s not an example of a far right policy 

The bit in bold is the whole point. Interestingly, re. the BNP, Nick Griffin did become a MEP - as they use the D'Hondt method of PR. He only lasted one term before being unceremoniously tossed though, which is exactly how democratic processes should work - they should accurately reflect the wishes of the populace at the time, and if he is useless, they should be able to chuck him straight back out.

That was exactly what happened with Griffin, and he's been a complete irrelevance ever since.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Tomorrows Queen's Speech is a chance for SKS to redeem himself or alternatively, could be one more nail.u

They may be better off with Emily Thornberry challenging Sunak.😂😂

[Fen Canary 879]

56 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Tomorrows Queen's Speech is a chance for SKS to redeem himself or alternatively, could be one more nail.u

They may be better off with Emily Thornberry challenging Sunak.😂😂

With Starmers political antennae I wouldn’t be surprised to see Thornberry and Diane Abbot as his front bench picks to reclaim the working class vote 

[Jools 584]

Labour sleaze:

[Jools 584]

https://vote-watch.com/2021/03/23/update-labour-councillor-appears-in-court-over-postal-vote-fraud-in-derby/

[horsefly 4,318]

Always happy to see fraudulent and criminal politicians held to account:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/tory-mps-investigated-for-lobbying-judges-before-elphicke-hearing/ar-BB1gBlE7?ocid=uxbndlbing

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

12 hours ago, Jools said:

Labour sleaze:

Kick her out if true. Fraud is fraud.

So its time you finally admitted your Avatar is the biggest of the lot.

[Jools 584]

Shadow Minister Kate Hollern has quit Starmer’s front bench following testimony made to the employment tribunal into former Hartlepool MP Mike Hill’s behaviour towards a staff member. Earlier this afternoon Andrew Bridgen accused Hollern of warning him not to get involved in the harassment case after the parliamentary staffer informed him of allegations of sexual impropriety.

In her witness statement the victim said:

“Andrew Bridgen called me to tell me that Kate Hollern had approached him in parliament and pulled him to one side. Mr Bridgen told me Ms Hollern tried to warn him off from helping me by using scare tactics. Ms Hollern said that many in the Labour Party were of the opinion that Mr Bridgen and I were having an affair and she advised him to keep away from me as it would be a shame if it got out in the papers as he had a lovely wife and new baby – Mr Bridgen told her she was talking nonsense and to go away.”

During a virtual hearing today, Mr Bridgen said he was aware of the allegations and was told not to get involved. Hollern threatened him that the Labour Party would smear him as having an affair with the victim. At the time Hollern was Corbyn’s PPS…

 

The continual daily SLEAZE of Labour is never ending...

How a party bereft of morals can call themselves 'Protectors of Values'.. They have none.

And you Lefties on here dare to talk of Tory sleaze 🤪

[horsefly 4,318]

10 hours ago, Jools said:

Shadow Minister Kate Hollern has quit Starmer’s front bench following testimony made to the employment tribunal into former Hartlepool MP Mike Hill’s behaviour towards a staff member. Earlier this afternoon Andrew Bridgen accused Hollern of warning him not to get involved in the harassment case after the parliamentary staffer informed him of allegations of sexual impropriety.

In her witness statement the victim said:

“Andrew Bridgen called me to tell me that Kate Hollern had approached him in parliament and pulled him to one side. Mr Bridgen told me Ms Hollern tried to warn him off from helping me by using scare tactics. Ms Hollern said that many in the Labour Party were of the opinion that Mr Bridgen and I were having an affair and she advised him to keep away from me as it would be a shame if it got out in the papers as he had a lovely wife and new baby – Mr Bridgen told her she was talking nonsense and to go away.”

During a virtual hearing today, Mr Bridgen said he was aware of the allegations and was told not to get involved. Hollern threatened him that the Labour Party would smear him as having an affair with the victim. At the time Hollern was Corbyn’s PPS…

 

The continual daily SLEAZE of Labour is never ending...

How a party bereft of morals can call themselves 'Protectors of Values'.. They have none.

And you Lefties on here dare to talk of Tory sleaze 🤪

You truly are an idiot if you think any "lefties" on here would condone this behaviour if the allegations are true. As a typical RWNJ you seem to think that there is a trade off between right-wing and left-wing sleaze that somehow cancels each other out. Sadly for you, some of us have a moral position such that we condemn all sleaze irrespective of the political party involved. We "dare" to talk of Tory sleaze because it is unashamedly rife as the number of tax-payer funded contracts given to Tory chums attests. It's a shame you can't find yourself incensed by this misappropriation of tax-payer's money. But then, we all know you're quite happy for the tax-payer to make up the wages of poverty pay businesses, like care homes for example.

[king canary 7,681]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

You truly are an idiot

Could have left it there to be honest.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Funny how Jools is never able to condemn Farage, Trump, Johnson, Robinson et al.

Those of us on the left are quite happy to dismiss or throw out ANYONE who steps over the line. Its part of the responsibility of public servants to be morally intact. There is no excuse for corruption, theft, lying or misleading.

Thats why so many of us dislike Blair. He leapt over the line and should have been sacked by the Party.

Jools knows what his avatar was up to and believes it is acceptable. And he is supposed to be for law and order. But according to his ilk, dipping your beak is acceptable.

[Well b back 3,285]

On 10/05/2021 at 13:13, Mello Yello said:

Burnham.....mmh.....Wonder if he's keen to be the next leader of the 'others'?......

Below the radar this may have moved a step closer today. Yesterday Burnham said vaccines need to be diverted to Bolton and given to the everybody over 16. Boris said no, however today it’s happening. Personally I don’t like Burnham, ( or Labour ) but this and other things seem to suggest he has more pull on Boris than Starmer. Maybe even a Boris ploy, he won’t be able to get Labour back, so we will help him become leader.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

58 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Below the radar this may have moved a step closer today. Yesterday Burnham said vaccines need to be diverted to Bolton and given to the everybody over 16. Boris said no, however today it’s happening. Personally I don’t like Burnham, ( or Labour ) but this and other things seem to suggest he has more pull on Boris than Starmer. Maybe even a Boris ploy, he won’t be able to get Labour back, so we will help him become leader.

That is crediting Boris with too much intelligence. Gove is the serpent.

[Jools 584]

I've found Horsefly's real identity  👇

[ricardo 7,416]

Posted without comment.

[Jools 584]

Just now, ricardo said:

Posted without comment.

👍

[horsefly 4,318]

50 minutes ago, Jools said:

I've found Horsefly's real identity  👇

 

Oh look! I found out where Jool's lives:

Edited May 14, 2021 by horsefly

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, Jools said:

I've found Horsefly's real identity  👇

Au contraire, Beckett, every bone in your body is racist --- You're an anti-Semitic Anglophobe...

That's why you, the Labour Party and its supporters will remain the minority ad infinitum 👍

[Well b back 3,285]

I don’t like the guy as I mentioned, but I see Boris does an immediate u-turn re vaccines to Bolton as soon as Burnham speaks.

[Herman 9,842]

Beckett is only suggesting what the Conservative Party are actually doing. I'm not sure why the gammon are getting all swivel eyed about. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Mate has just shown me the text of an interview with a voter in Hartlepool who said:

 "I voted Tory because under them Hartlepool has nine food banks but under Labour, we didn't have any"

😂😂😂😂

Anyone seen a Monkey?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

3 hours ago, Jools said:

👍

Is that the much vaunted Kraken like, upright, honest, Reform party losing deposits again😂😂😂😂