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CANARYKING

An arm away from losing

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Just to clarify west coast, if it doesn’t hit his leg I think a penalty although harsh could be justified 

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4 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Yes, by the rules. 

I know you could start an argument with a paper bag, but I am genuinely surprised you think there was any deliberate intent from Godfrey to block the shot with his hand.

If you consider the distance from the shot, the fact he clearly went in to block with his legs (hence the deflection), and that his arms were certainly not in an unnatural position, I cannot see how on the balance of probabilities it was considered a deliberate act.

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1 minute ago, Ian said:

I know you could start an argument with a paper bag, but I am genuinely surprised you think there was any deliberate intent from Godfrey to block the shot with his hand.

If you consider the distance from the shot, the fact he clearly went in to block with his legs (hence the deflection), and that his arms were certainly not in an unnatural position, I cannot see how on the balance of probabilities it was considered a deliberate act.

Baffling isn’t it!

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It doesn't matter, the ref gave it. I don't think after ten replays it was, but that's football.  On to Shef Wed. Great times after last two seasons.

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45 minutes ago, JF said:

How can anyone believe that Godfrey deliberately handled that ball. A ball hit from one metre away with venomous force that takes a deflection and changes trajectory onto his arm??

Exactly this - I've not been entirely convinced by VAR yet but this was a perfect example of where it would very quickly give the correct decision and prevent yet another refereeing mistake - one view of the replay was all that needed to clearly see that it wasn't a penalty.

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46 minutes ago, Ian said:

I know you could start an argument with a paper bag, but I am genuinely surprised you think there was any deliberate intent from Godfrey to block the shot with his hand.

 

Ian, it's not me "thinking" there was deliberate intent, it's about the meaning of "intentional" as applied in the rule. As I understand it, a player who deliberately sets out to block the shot is deemed to intend to do so with whatever part of his body actually intercepts the ball. If his body, head or legs intercept the ball, that's fine, but if his hand or arm intercepts the ball then it depends on the position of the arm, specifically whether, irrespective of any specific further intention on the player's part to use his hand or arm, his arm actually enlarges the area blocked off by the player beyond the area of his body. The rule recognises that players have arms, but they must be either behind the back or tucked in by the player's sides. What the arms can't be is outstretched to any degree, because then they serve to enlarge the player's body in the act of attempting to block the shot.

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Blah blah blah - whatever, the penalty was a poor decision.  I recall when we got our pen v Millwall some suggested it was fortunate, but in that case there was no deflection, the ball travelled a reasonable distance and the arm was raised - that was a pen.  This was utterly different and should not have been given.  The other decision, for offside, was clearly correct, too.

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5 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Blah blah blah - whatever, the penalty was a poor decision.  I recall when we got our pen v Millwall some suggested it was fortunate, but in that case there was no deflection, the ball travelled a reasonable distance and the arm was raised - that was a pen.  This was utterly different and should not have been given.  The other decision, for offside, was clearly correct, too.

Suppose a player dives in to block a shot, which hits his leg, ricochets against his head and hence is diverted to safety. The success of the block is due to both leg and head. In Godfrey's case, it was not head but outstretched arm. Decision correct.

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It wasnt a penalty and I'm sure with VAR next season there will be an example which proves the point.

The deflection from leg to arm is what changes it from being a pen to not being a pen.

The other point here is there is no deliberate attempt to handle the ball and nor are his arms in an unnatural position considering the player was 'diving in' so to speak.

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Sad fact is that Wigan were good value for their lead at half time however it arrived. We were that poor. No complaints.

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Wigan may have been playing a bit better than us in the first half, but we still created the better chances so they were not really “good value” for their lead - certainly not to a last minute bad penalty decision. Which it was, whatever westcoast says.

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It amazes me that so many people think they know better than the best qualified person on the pitch, not only best qualified but also ideally positioned.

How about you guys asking yourselves why the referee gave it without hesitation. Could there actually be a completely rational explanation other than your knee jerk "it was a mistake"?

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1 minute ago, westcoastcanary said:

It amazes me that so many people think they know better than the best qualified person on the pitch, not only best qualified but also ideally positioned.

How about you guys asking yourselves why the referee gave it without hesitation. Could there actually be a completely rational explanation other than your knee jerk "it was a mistake"?

The referee did hesitate, if we're going to be pedantic about it.

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14 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Suppose a player dives in to block a shot, which hits his leg, ricochets against his head and hence is diverted to safety. The success of the block is due to both leg and head. In Godfrey's case, it was not head but outstretched arm. Decision correct.

I can't find anywhere the laws of the game refer to whether an on-target shot is blocked having any relevance to whether it is deliberate hand ball or not?

Happy to admit I'm wrong but I can't find any reference to it.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Not quibbling about semantics but their goal had been coming. 

It’s hardly semantics - no one ‘deserves’ to be given a goal from a bad decision.  If you want a sport that awards points for performance, watch gymnastics or diving. The fact is, both sides were pretty crap in the first half and neither particularly ‘deserved’ a goal.

Edited by Branston Pickle

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we conceded too many goals between 42-45 min of first half.

its really unbelievable we always become very nervous and shaky just before ht .

 

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1 minute ago, Branston Pickle said:

It’s hardly semantics - no one ‘deserves’ to be given a goal, particularly from a bad decision.  If you want a sport that awards points for performance, watch gymnastics or diving. The fact is, both sides were pretty crap in the first half and neither deserved a goal.

But that's football - there are always dubious calls, an element of luck and taking your chances - the offside for instance. Some you win and some you lose. Yes the penalty was harsh but we were not 'robbed' of a good performance at that point but on balance Wigan were ahead. If in the second half we had gone on to win it, it might have been deserved given the substitutions but not before. 

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Wigan were ahead at 0-0? I’m not sure how that one works.  As for the offside, I’m at a total loss to see how a correct decision - which it was - was ‘lucky’ for us or dubious.

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Wigan fan          Its a penalty

Norwich fan      No way

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, daly said:

Wigan fan          Its a penalty

Norwich fan      No way

Experienced, knowledgeable and fully-briefed-on-the-rules referee    Penalty  

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5 minutes ago, Branston Pickle said:

Wigan were ahead at 0-0? I’m not sure how that one works.  As for the offside, I’m at a total loss to see how a correct decision - which it was - was ‘lucky’ for us or dubious.

All it is is that on balance I felt we could have no complaints at half time being 1 down. We weren't good enough. Sure they could have missed (or not been awarded) the penalty and qually the offside not given (goal stands). End result the same. We needed to improve. Frankly I'm not interested in endless pointless debate on the penalty - it wont change the result - but we need to wake up for Wednesday! 

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2 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Experienced, knowledgeable and fully-briefed-on-the-rules referee    Penalty  

Yes. It’s not as if referees have been known to make mistakes before is it...

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Just now, JF said:

Yes. It’s not as if referees have been known to make mistakes before is it...

They do, but nowhere near as often as fans like to think. 

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2 minutes ago, JF said:

Yes. It’s not as if referees have been known to make mistakes before is it...

It is interesting that I’ve not seen any reports today that haven’t said it was a “controversial” or “very harsh” decision, but westcoast seems to think it wasn’t....oh well.

Perhaps Daly needs to revise his thing to:

Norwich fan - not a penalty, unless you are westcoast (just because) or yellowfever (because they ‘were ahead’)

As they say in cricket: look in the scorebook - ie the decision’s been made, you’re not going to change it. But nor does it mean it won’t or shouldn’t grate. 

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Common opinion across the this board and neutrals is this one he did get wrong

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22 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Experienced, knowledgeable and fully-briefed-on-the-rules referee    Penalty  

Appeal to authority fallacy?

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