The Positive Brexit Thread

[Fen Canary 1,358]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

One for @Fen Canary

80% of going rate, and look at the size of the occupation list. Under EU law this was illegal. Under brexit law it's more than fine. "Ever get the feeling you've been had?"

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations/skilled-worker-visa-shortage-occupations

I’m not happy with the current levels of immigration and I’m not going to pretend otherwise. If a party promises to reduce it at the next election they’ll probably get my vote (although the winning parties have been promising to reduce it for around 15 years now and it’s been steadily climbing).

However the point is that the elected government now has total control over who comes and in and how many. They’re no longer hamstrung by freedom of movement laws and can reduce it tomorrow if they wished. The fact they haven’t done so means they’re likely to be punished for it at the next election 

[NFN FC 1,142]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I’m not happy with the current levels of immigration and I’m not going to pretend otherwise. If a party promises to reduce it at the next election they’ll probably get my vote (although the winning parties have been promising to reduce it for around 15 years now and it’s been steadily climbing).

However the point is that the elected government now has total control over who comes and in and how many. They’re no longer hamstrung by freedom of movement laws and can reduce it tomorrow if they wished. The fact they haven’t done so means they’re likely to be punished for it at the next election 

There were pretty much as many EU immigrants coming to the UK in the last year as in 2014. 

There's many more non-EU, mainly 210,000 from Ukraine and a 43% increase in students (government scheme to pay for our universities).

Personally I couldn't care less on the numbers coming in. I care about the numbers that contribute (which is the vast majority). 

[Fen Canary 1,358]

13 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

There were pretty much as many EU immigrants coming to the UK in the last year as in 2014. 

There's many more non-EU, mainly 210,000 from Ukraine and a 43% increase in students (government scheme to pay for our universities).

Personally I couldn't care less on the numbers coming in. I care about the numbers that contribute (which is the vast majority). 

They contribute that much that Britains GDP per capita is less than it was in 2008

[NFN FC 1,142]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

They contribute that much that Britains GDP per capita is less than it was in 2008

You can't link that to immigration. 

[Fen Canary 1,358]

33 minutes ago, NFN FC said:

You can't link that to immigration. 

That’s convenient isn’t it!

How about the fact the government statistics indicate that immigration between 1991 and 2016 caused house prices in England to rise by more than 20%?

Or that more than 1.6 million pupils in state schools have English as a second language, with only 36% of these deemed to be fluent which puts considerable extra work and costs onto schools and teachers?

Or that almost half of social housing in London is now occupied by somebody born abroad?

Or that between 2010 and 2020 there were nearly 7 million new registrations for GPs, despite the country already having a shortage? Since 2010, 350k UK based applicants were refused a place at nursing college, while we import nurses from abroad who then require housing and public services.

Notice how every one of these negatively affects the poorer sections of society? Those who have seen their wages suppressed, public services on which they rely become overwhelmed, housing become more expensive and their children’s education disrupted? Yet every time they call for immigration to be reduced (60% believe immigration has been too high over the last decade, while only 9% say it’s been too low) they’re labelled as right wing racists by those with the financial means to avoid all these issues, either by moving to wealthier areas, bypassing the public health system or sending their children to better schools.

[A Load of Squit 6,035]

8 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s convenient isn’t it!

How about the fact the government statistics indicate that immigration between 1991 and 2016 caused house prices in England to rise by more than 20%?

Or that more than 1.6 million pupils in state schools have English as a second language, with only 36% of these deemed to be fluent which puts considerable extra work and costs onto schools and teachers?

Or that almost half of social housing in London is now occupied by somebody born abroad?

Or that between 2010 and 2020 there were nearly 7 million new registrations for GPs, despite the country already having a shortage? Since 2010, 350k UK based applicants were refused a place at nursing college, while we import nurses from abroad who then require housing and public services.

Notice how every one of these negatively affects the poorer sections of society? Those who have seen their wages suppressed, public services on which they rely become overwhelmed, housing become more expensive and their children’s education disrupted? Yet every time they call for immigration to be reduced (60% believe immigration has been too high over the last decade, while only 9% say it’s been too low) they’re labelled as right wing racists by those with the financial means to avoid all these issues, either by moving to wealthier areas, bypassing the public health system or sending their children to better schools.

I don't have those 'financial means' but I still think you're a RWNJ.

Your use of statistics is woeful.

As someone who was born abroad I think you should stop blaming people for the problems they haven't caused.

[Herman 10,936]

3 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

I don't have those 'financial means' but I still think you're a RWNJ.

Your use of statistics is woeful.

As someone who was born abroad I think you should stop blaming people for the problems they haven't caused.

A man that voted for the Tories all his life, watched and cheered as the industries were destroyed and sent abroad, supported a destructive austerity suck the life out of already impoverished parts of the country and desperate for a brexit that would knowingly cripple the economy is trying to blame it all on immigration and immigrants. Maybe Fen should look closer to home??

[NFN FC 1,142]

9 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

That’s convenient isn’t it!

How about the fact the government statistics indicate that immigration between 1991 and 2016 caused house prices in England to rise by more than 20%? just because 2 things have risen don't mean they are a function of one another.

Or that more than 1.6 million pupils in state schools have English as a second language, with only 36% of these deemed to be fluent which puts considerable extra work and costs onto schools and teachers? most kids aren't fluent in English, that's one of the reasons they're at school.

Or that almost half of social housing in London is now occupied by somebody born abroad? sounds like a government issue, they need to sort it out. Not the fault of immigrants.

Or that between 2010 and 2020 there were nearly 7 million new registrations for GPs, despite the country already having a shortage? Since 2010, 350k UK based applicants were refused a place at nursing college, while we import nurses from abroad who then require housing and public services. the Tories have underfunded and under supported the NHS for over a decade. 

Notice how every one of these negatively affects the poorer sections of society? Those who have seen their wages suppressed, public services on which they rely become overwhelmed, housing become more expensive and their children’s education disrupted? Yet every time they call for immigration to be reduced (60% believe immigration has been too high over the last decade, while only 9% say it’s been too low) they’re labelled as right wing racists by those with the financial means to avoid all these issues, either by moving to wealthier areas, bypassing the public health system or sending their children to better schools.

These problems are caused by government policy. 

[sonyc 6,058]

It has all been about creating a brand it seems! Weird, this populism thing and how far people are drawn in.

[Fen Canary 1,358]

11 hours ago, NFN FC said:

These problems are caused by government policy. 

You’re right they’re caused by government policy, and that policy is excessive immigration.

 

11 hours ago, NFN FC said:

That’s convenient isn’t it!

How about the fact the government statistics indicate that immigration between 1991 and 2016 caused house prices in England to rise by more than 20%? just because 2 things have risen don't mean they are a function of one another.
 

That’s a 20% rise on top of what they have risen, so house prices would still be higher today than 1991 due to our lack of housebuilding but immigration has made the situation worse.

 

Or that more than 1.6 million pupils in state schools have English as a second language, with only 36% of these deemed to be fluent which puts considerable extra work and costs onto schools and teachers? most kids aren't fluent in English, that's one of the reasons they're at school.

 

Most kids are fluent in English, which makes it much easier for the teacher to explain other subjects to them. If the teacher is spending extra time having to explain a subject multiple times due to problems in translation then that’s detrimental to the education of the other children, or an extra cost for the school in having to hire translators.

 

Or that almost half of social housing in London is now occupied by somebody born abroad? sounds like a government issue, they need to sort it out. Not the fault of immigrants.

 

If the government hadn’t imported so many people (who I thought all contributed immensely to society so I’m not sure why they need social housing) then there wouldn’t be such a shortage as demand would be much less.

 

Or that between 2010 and 2020 there were nearly 7 million new registrations for GPs, despite the country already having a shortage? Since 2010, 350k UK based applicants were refused a place at nursing college, while we import nurses from abroad who then require housing and public services. the Tories have underfunded and under supported the NHS for over a decade. 

In terms of % of GDP our healthcare spending is fairly similar to that of our peers, although I agree I’d like to see it increased. However 7 million extra patients obviously puts pressure on an already stretched service.

 

Notice how every one of these negatively affects the poorer sections of society? Those who have seen their wages suppressed, public services on which they rely become overwhelmed, housing become more expensive and their children’s education disrupted? Yet every time they call for immigration to be reduced (60% believe immigration has been too high over the last decade, while only 9% say it’s been too low) they’re labelled as right wing racists by those with the financial means to avoid all these issues, either by moving to wealthier areas, bypassing the public health system or sending their children to better schools.

 

[Fen Canary 1,358]

12 hours ago, Herman said:

A man that voted for the Tories all his life, watched and cheered as the industries were destroyed and sent abroad, supported a destructive austerity suck the life out of already impoverished parts of the country and desperate for a brexit that would knowingly cripple the economy is trying to blame it all on immigration and immigrants. Maybe Fen should look closer to home??

I certainly haven’t voted Tory all my life, my votes have largely switched between the two major parties.

The bulk of our industries were destroyed and moved abroad while we were members of the EU.

I think austerity has been the most stupid policy of my lifetime.

I don’t blame the immigrants themselves, I blame the government for allowing that many people in when a majority of the electorate has constantly voted for parties that promised to reduce immigration 

[Fen Canary 1,358]

12 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

I don't have those 'financial means' but I still think you're a RWNJ.

Your use of statistics is woeful.

As someone who was born abroad I think you should stop blaming people for the problems they haven't caused.

Which statistics do you disagree with? Do you believe that importing millions of people has no effect on house prices, or doesn’t create extra pressure on schools and public services? 

[A Load of Squit 6,035]

42 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Which statistics do you disagree with? Do you believe that importing millions of people has no effect on house prices, or doesn’t create extra pressure on schools and public services? 

Your ability to understand the English language is also woeful.

[Fen Canary 1,358]

1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

Your ability to understand the English language is also woeful.

Are you going to respond to the points I’ve made or lazily sit there attempting to insult me?

This is the problem with internet boards. If you’re having this conversation in the pub you actually have to listen to what is being said and then reply accordingly. If you just sat there ignoring what was being said and threw out childish insults in response you’d be rightly ignored.

What points do you disagree with? Why do you think importing the amount of people we currently are is a good thing, and which groups benefit from the current levels? 

Edited November 30, 2023 by Fen Canary

[NFN FC 1,142]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I certainly haven’t voted Tory all my life, my votes have largely switched between the two major parties.

The bulk of our industries were destroyed and moved abroad while we were members of the EU.

I think austerity has been the most stupid policy of my lifetime.

I don’t blame the immigrants themselves, I blame the government for allowing that many people in when a majority of the electorate has constantly voted for parties that promised to reduce immigration 

Our industry going abroad was Thatcherism. 

Agreed, austerity is stupid. 

The vast majority of immigrants contribute to the economy. If there are some that aren't and are draining the system, the benefits system is as fault.

The money from our taxes has been squandered and poorly used for years hense the issues with public services.

[Fen Canary 1,358]

6 hours ago, NFN FC said:

Our industry going abroad was Thatcherism. 

Agreed, austerity is stupid. 

The vast majority of immigrants contribute to the economy. If there are some that aren't and are draining the system, the benefits system is as fault.

The money from our taxes has been squandered and poorly used for years hense the issues with public services.

I largely agree with all those points, but I still believe that the negatives from importing almost a million people a year vastly outweigh any positives.

You can moan that public services SHOULD improve to accommodate the extra people, or we SHOULD be building more houses and infrastructure to cope with them but we haven’t, therefore letting in the numbers we currently are is causing more harm than good.

[dylanisabaddog 5,777]

2 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

I largely agree with all those points, but I still believe that the negatives from importing almost a million people a year vastly outweigh any positives.

You can moan that public services SHOULD improve to accommodate the extra people, or we SHOULD be building more houses and infrastructure to cope with them but we haven’t, therefore letting in the numbers we currently are is causing more harm than good.

I posted recently on another thread that the increase in single person households is responsible for the housing problem.. There were 1m in 1971 and 50 years later there are 7m.

The problem with public services has been caused by the Government's austerity program. It didn't work. 

There is of course a physical limit to the number of people that the UK can cope with and there is no long term plan as to how we deal with that issue. 

[TheGunnShow 7,079]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I posted recently on another thread that the increase in single person households is responsible for the housing problem.. There were 1m in 1971 and 50 years later there are 7m.

The problem with public services has been caused by the Government's austerity program. It didn't work. 

There is of course a physical limit to the number of people that the UK can cope with and there is no long term plan as to how we deal with that issue. 

The fundamental issue is that nowhere near enough social housing was built after Thatcher sold it off.

[Herman 10,936]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I posted recently on another thread that the increase in single person households is responsible for the housing problem.. There were 1m in 1971 and 50 years later there are 7m.

The problem with public services has been caused by the Government's austerity program. It didn't work. 

There is of course a physical limit to the number of people that the UK can cope with and there is no long term plan as to how we deal with that issue. 

Therein lies the problem. Short term fixes to cover up failures of policy and ideology.

The British public need to have a good think about what they want and to stop listening and voting for populists offering easy solutions. 

[Yellow Fever 4,311]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

I posted recently on another thread that the increase in single person households is responsible for the housing problem.. There were 1m in 1971 and 50 years later there are 7m.

The problem with public services has been caused by the Government's austerity program. It didn't work. 

There is of course a physical limit to the number of people that the UK can cope with and there is no long term plan as to how we deal with that issue. 

Yes Dylan - A long time ago I think  I noted similar - and the facts that we are all living a lot longer (hence housing doesn't roll over as fast as before).

Simple truth is that demographic changes - a huge number of actually generally not so poor, but 'entitled', pensioners and a dwindling younger tax base (let alone labour) means that we need working immigrants else they'll be no one and no money to pay or care for the growing number pensioners.

A little bit of honesty is required. It's already becoming acute in Japan!

[horsefly 5,147]

On 29/11/2023 at 22:09, Fen Canary said:

That’s convenient isn’t it!

How about the fact the government statistics indicate that immigration between 1991 and 2016 caused house prices in England to rise by more than 20%?

Or that more than 1.6 million pupils in state schools have English as a second language, with only 36% of these deemed to be fluent which puts considerable extra work and costs onto schools and teachers?

Or that almost half of social housing in London is now occupied by somebody born abroad?

Or that between 2010 and 2020 there were nearly 7 million new registrations for GPs, despite the country already having a shortage? Since 2010, 350k UK based applicants were refused a place at nursing college, while we import nurses from abroad who then require housing and public services.

Notice how every one of these negatively affects the poorer sections of society? Those who have seen their wages suppressed, public services on which they rely become overwhelmed, housing become more expensive and their children’s education disrupted? Yet every time they call for immigration to be reduced (60% believe immigration has been too high over the last decade, while only 9% say it’s been too low) they’re labelled as right wing racists by those with the financial means to avoid all these issues, either by moving to wealthier areas, bypassing the public health system or sending their children to better schools.

Immigrants contribute more in tax than they remove in benefits. They do jobs that many others won't/can't do, and are responsible for keeping the NHS, social services, and food production still functioning. The money foreign students bring in enables Universities to survive and do important research that benefits our industries and economy. Perhaps put the blame for government failures where it belongs.

[TheGunnShow 7,079]

8 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Immigrants contribute more in tax than they remove in benefits. They do jobs that many others won't/can't do, and are responsible for keeping the NHS, social services, and food production still functioning. The money foreign students bring in enables Universities to survive and do important research that benefits our industries and economy. Perhaps put the blame for government failures where it belongs.

Exactly this. Prime example - fruit and vegetable picking.

[horsefly 5,147]

5 hours ago, Fen Canary said:

You can moan that public services SHOULD improve to accommodate the extra people, or we SHOULD be building more houses and infrastructure to cope with them but we haven’t, therefore letting in the numbers we currently are is causing more harm than good.

And there's the rub. Who is going to build those houses and infrastructure? Who is going to provide the medical care for the people building those houses and infrastructure? Who is going to look after the care needs of the relatives of those building the homes and infrastructure? Who is going to harvest the food to feed those building the houses and infrastructure? etc, etc, etc.

If you believe we can find those people from the pool of non-workers (the disabled, the intellectually incapable etc) then you really are living in an alternate reality. This government would love nothing more than to reduce immigration by a dramatic number, but industrial and economic reality has forced them to recognise this country simply could not survive without significant immigration.

[TheGunnShow 7,079]

Basically, either the retirement age is going to have to shoot up even further, or plenty of skilled immigration is needed. There's no squaring that circle otherwise. Making it harder for students within the EU to study here and pay our tuition fees (and let's face it, if they're willing to study in a different country, they're the kind of bi-lingual or multi-lingual, motivated sorts the UK really can use!) is a serious OG.

@dylanisabaddog is right that the increase in single-person households is a ground change in how people live, but almost seemed to make it sound bad although I very much doubt it was his intent, hence my statement that the underlying problem was to do with government not building anywhere near enough social housing. The trend was already very much evident well before Thatcher came into power, after all.

And no doubt the likes of the pathetic Miriam Cates or even IDS would try to segue this into some kind of "breakdown" of society when in reality it's a pleasing sign that people are realising traditional methods are not as universally applicable as previously thought.

[Indy 3,426]

9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And there's the rub. Who is going to build those houses and infrastructure? Who is going to provide the medical care for the people building those houses and infrastructure? Who is going to look after the care needs of the relatives of those building the homes and infrastructure? Who is going to harvest the food to feed those building the houses and infrastructure? etc, etc, etc.

If you believe we can find those people from the pool of non-workers (the disabled, the intellectually incapable etc) then you really are living in an alternate reality. This government would love nothing more than to reduce immigration by a dramatic number, but industrial and economic reality has forced them to recognise this country simply could not survive without significant immigration.

There’s the nub of the issue right there, Brexit immigration restrictions has decimated our farming industry, it lead to Poland & other EU nations increasing their net yields of produce by 17% and those immigrants who were very productive here are now working there! As a result our food costs have increased.

We had the right of refusal to all immigrants while we were in the EU, we had the opportunity to encourage our own population which itself is a massive drain in benefit system as our own British population know how to claim maximum out of it with minimum input! Those who can work and claim benefits should be made to work in the industry needing a workforce, yet we don’t, we are happy as a nation to pay people 26k a year for sitting on their ****!

Before those who genuinely are claiming and want to work I don’t target you, but there are millions who don’t and screw our system, it’s not only some immigrants but our own who should be looked at!

[TheGunnShow 7,079]

2 minutes ago, Indy said:

There’s the nub of the issue right there, Brexit immigration restrictions has decimated our farming industry, it lead to Poland & other EU nations increasing their net yields of produce by 17% and those immigrants who were very productive here are now working there! As a result our food costs have increased.

We had the right of refusal to all immigrants while we were in the EU, we had the opportunity to encourage our own population which itself is a massive drain in benefit system as our own British population know how to claim maximum out of it with minimum input! Those who can work and claim benefits should be made to work in the industry needing a workforce, yet we don’t, we are happy as a nation to pay people 26k a year for sitting on their ****!

Before those who genuinely are claiming and want to work I don’t target you, but there are millions who don’t and screw our system, it’s not only some immigrants but our own who should be looked at!

Considering that more welfare tends to be paid to working poor than the unemployed, how many really "play" our system?

I mean, Bernie Ecclestone ended up lashing out £600m due to tax evasion. I'm sure he'd pay for a shedload of unemployed folk just on his own.

Edited December 1, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Indy 3,426]

Just now, TheGunnShow said:

Considering that more welfare tends to be paid to working poor than the unemployed, how many really "play" our system?

They deserve it, anyone who goes out to work is deserving of help! I don’t have the breakdown, but there’s a hell of a lot who have over the years played the system and I reckon we all know at least one family who do and have done if we’re honest! 

[TheGunnShow 7,079]

12 minutes ago, Indy said:

They deserve it, anyone who goes out to work is deserving of help! I don’t have the breakdown, but there’s a hell of a lot who have over the years played the system and I reckon we all know at least one family who do and have done if we’re honest! 

This is the thing though - I hear this a bit, but no-one's ever provided much in terms of stats. Do some exist? I don't doubt that at all, but the number of such and the cost of them has always seemed to defy classification. In contrast, we have a fine example in Ecclestone recently from just one tax evader.

But I really suspect, considering what we know about welfare payments and that unemployment benefits are only a small proportion of welfare spending, that there are far fewer than is surmised, especially in the absence of any strong evidence detailing otherwise.

Just another example of how the notion of a meritocracy, when applied at a macro level, is toxic (and indeed was noted as a dystopia when the word was coined by Sir Michael Young). Tax evaders cost the UK a hell of a lot more than people milking the benefits system. HMRC estimated this figure to be around £35bn, and Richard Murphy amongst others also consider that figure to be conservative.

Edited December 1, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[Indy 3,426]

3 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

This is the thing though - I hear this a bit, but no-one's ever provided much in terms of stats. Do some exist? I don't doubt that at all.

But I really suspect, considering what we know about welfare payments and that unemployment benefits are only a small proportion of welfare spending, that there are far fewer than is surmised, especially in the absence of any strong evidence detailing otherwise.

Just another example of how the notion of a meritocracy, when applied at a macro level, is toxic (and indeed was noted as a dystopia when the word was coined by Sir Michael Young). Tax evaders cost the UK a hell of a lot more than people milking the benefits system. HMRC estimated this figure to be around £35bn, and Richard Murphy amongst others also consider that figure to be conservative.

I’m with you on tax evasion, hell I’ve owned my own business for years and the government has been proactive in cutting off free dividends from 32k now heading to 1k a year. So some areas are tackled but big business and wealthy get far too much protection from loopholes which should be an area looked at quickly, yet both labour & Tory governments have never looked into this seriously because they’re being backed by those who are the main protagonists!

[Yellow Fever 4,311]

Just saw this poll as of the 29th

https://yougov.co.uk/politics/articles/47997-britons-support-rejoining-the-single-market-even-if-it-means-free-movement

57% of Britons would now support rejoining SM even with free movement.

Same as Norway I guess.

 

 

Edited December 1, 2023 by Yellow Fever