The Positive Brexit Thread

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

1 minute ago, ricardo said:

I'm not blaming anyone merely pointing out the deal on offer to N.l. was claimed to be the kind of cherry picking that would never be allowed by the E.U.

Strange how things have suddenly changed.

Yeah, but it's a special case specifically for Northern Ireland. In fairness, it wasn't on offer to the wider UK and never will be.

But I still think we can finish up with something similar for the whole UK given that the UK and EU are heading in the same direction regarding building agreements in Asia.

[ricardo 7,396]

1 minute ago, benchwarmer said:

I think it has more to do with the fact that Rishi Sunak has replaced Boris Johnson. 

Johnson was the ERG's plaything, and Sunak isn't. To appease the ERG Johnson signed something he never intended to abide by and then tried to bypass it by Act of Parliament.  As a condition of the Windsor Framework, that route is now closed. 

It was Johnson who overplayed his hand.  I wonder what he's thinking now.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes that is also a big factor. Once trust is established it is in the interest of both parties to find a sensible compromise. 

 

[Yellow Fever 3,818]

1 minute ago, benchwarmer said:

I think it has more to do with the fact that Rishi Sunak has replaced Boris Johnson. 

Johnson was the ERG's plaything, and Sunak isn't. To appease the ERG Johnson signed something he never intended to abide by and then tried to bypass it by Act of Parliament.  As a condition of the Windsor Framework, that route is now closed. 

It was Johnson who overplayed his hand.  I wonder what he's thinking now.

 

 

 

 

 

Much nearer the truth BW.

Simply the rhetoric from the UK was not constructive - May was rational but a hostage of the ERG nutters, Johnson (least said the better but completely untrustworthy) and Truss (friend or foe?).

Sunak is the first grown up able to be constructive that the EU have had to negotiate with some seven years later.....

[Herman 9,820]

10 minutes ago, ricardo said:

I'm not blaming anyone merely pointing out the deal on offer to N.l. was claimed to be the kind of cherry picking that would never be allowed by the E.U.

Strange how things have suddenly changed. I guess they think they can get away with blurring the lines for a couple of million people without much kickback. Its certainly somthing very few expected.

Blimey mate. The GFA made sure that NI was treated differently. This was explained many years ago.

[ricardo 7,396]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yeah, but it's a special case specifically for Northern Ireland. In fairness, it wasn't on offer to the wider UK and never will be.

But I still think we can finish up with something similar for the whole UK given that the UK and EU are heading in the same direction regarding building agreements in Asia.

Yes, this is just a blurring of the lines to solve the immediate problem in N.I. 

A full trade agreement was always going to come once the bitterness of divorce had faded a bit. However those hoping for a remarriage are doomed to be disappointed. It won't stop them buying confetti though.

[Barbe bleu 832]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I think part of whats going on is the EU realising that they overplayed their hand and with a war on their eastern border they have other priorities with respect to their relationship with the UK.

If only the EU hadn't snubbed Cameron all those years ago we might have been in an entirely different place.

 

That's a very interesting question.  I wonder what would have happened had either Cameron had taken the negotiations more seriously or been taken more seriously. One for the historians maybe.

Good to see this agreement seemingly fall into place, I just hope it's the start of people on all sides moving forward.   Far too much upset and emotion has been caused already....

..And far more effort than is healthy has been spent with the arguments  and on what ricardo calls 'sessions' on here.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

16 minutes ago, Herman said:

Blimey mate. The GFA made sure that NI was treated differently. This was explained many years ago.

Yeah, but NI was not treated in good faith during the withdrawal process; the EU used it as a political lever and Barnier is recorded outlining this was the intent. An agreement proposed in bad faith that's agreed in bad faith isn't really worth much to anyone.

On the other hand, we have here a genuine good faith agreement on the subject, which is what was needed in the first place.

[Herman 9,820]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I think part of whats going on is the EU realising that they overplayed their hand and with a war on their eastern border they have other priorities with respect to their relationship with the UK.

If only the EU hadn't snubbed Cameron all those years ago we might have been in an entirely different place.

 

See, more rewriting of history. (This is precisely why the brexit debates got so lively and heated.)

Anyway, here are the facts of Cameron's "snub". He got parts of what he wanted and compromised on others. Like a sensible politician.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

[sonyc 5,541]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

I think one thing we can all agree upon is that the discussion over the last couple of days has been much more stimulating than the usual remainer mutual masterbation sessions that have lately dominated this thread.

And I mean that in the best possible  way.😉

Sorry Dad.🤭 

Guess folk need an outlet at times.

 

[ricardo 7,396]

17 minutes ago, Herman said:

See, more rewriting of history. (This is precisely why the brexit debates got so lively and heated.)

Anyway, here are the facts of Cameron's "snub". He got parts of what he wanted and compromised on others. Like a sensible politician.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35622105

Obviously not enough else the vote wouldn't have gone the way it did.

[ricardo 7,396]

Just now, sonyc said:

Sorry Dad.🤭 

Guess folk need an outlet at times.

 

As long as you haven't gone blind😉

[benchwarmer 625]

22 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yeah, but NI was not treated in good faith during the withdrawal process; the EU used it as a political lever

 

I wouldn't put it like that.  It was inevitable that the EU's position would be conditioned to some extent by the fact that the Irish Republic was a signatory to the GFA and also an EU member state. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

10 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

I wouldn't put it like that.  It was inevitable that the EU's position would be conditioned to some extent by the fact that the Irish Republic was a signatory to the GFA and also an EU member state. 

The Republc of Ireland's only interest was seeing no border on the Island of Ireland. The EU exploited that by making the requirements for the Irish sea border so difficult as to never be realistically acceptable to the unionists for wider political motives.

You only have to look at the enormous contrast between this agreement and the first agreement to see that any claims that what was originally agreed was good faith best efforts on the EU's part is laughable.

Under the circumstances, that's compltetely forgivable and understandable, but let's call a spade a spade.

Edited February 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,541]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

You only have to look at the enormous contrast between this agreement and the first agreement to see that any claims that what was originally agreed was good faith best efforts on the EU's part is laughable.

Then why did Johnson tell us all it was a fantastic deal then?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

Then why did Johnson tell us all it was a fantastic deal then?

Oh Jesus Christ, not you as well.

[ricardo 7,396]

Its almost as though those on the remain side are unhappy to see a much better deal on offer from the E.U.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

11 minutes ago, sonyc said:

Then why did Johnson tell us all it was a fantastic deal then?

Actually, I'll tell you why. The government knew full well that the EU was fully intent on using NI as a lever to prevent the UK leaving and there was no way we'd get any sort of withdrawal agreement without accepting the EU's terms for the most part. So that meant it was accepted in bad faith in the interests of securing the rest of the agreement with a view to renegotiating later.

That renegotiation has now happened and the content of the renegotiation shows that there was not even a hint of the EU making efforts for the best interests of Northern Ireland the first time around.

Edit: That's not to take away from the wonderful news that the EU and UK are on good enough terms to work together like this again.

Edited February 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,541]

6 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Its almost as though those on the remain side are unhappy to see a much better deal on offer from the E.U.

You've not been reading then. I have repeatedly said so and even started that topic off. At no stage have I not welcomed this.

It's clear you think those that voted remain are idiots and wan*ers. I suppose you have stated the latter so at least you're being honest. 

I'm off from this thread for a while. Imagine having a feeling or an opinion on something that you share with other like-minded posters but be thought of so poorly.

 

 

[Herman 9,820]

8 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Its almost as though those on the remain side are unhappy to see a much better deal on offer from the E.U.

Wake up and small the coffee. (It's Camp Coffee now only, thanks to brexit.)

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

11 minutes ago, sonyc said:

You've not been reading then. I have repeatedly said so and even started that topic off. At no stage have I not welcomed this.

It's clear you think those that voted remain are idiots and wan*ers. I suppose you have stated the latter so at least you're being honest. 

I'm off from this thread for a while. Imagine having a feeling or an opinion on something that you share with other like-minded posters but be thought of so poorly.

 

 

What, like being a narrow-minded racist bigot based on how you voted, you mean?

Ricardo's not directing it at you personally; it's just a reflection of the sort of condescending remarks leave voters have been on the brunt of for so many of you for so long.

I didn't even vote to leave the EU, but I'm still treated with contempt on here for daring to point out, on the 'positive Brexit thread' no less, how things could potentially work out positively; none of you want to hear it though, because you all know better.

Edited February 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

13 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Its almost as though those on the remain side are unhappy to see a much better deal on offer from the E.U.

No, it is as the Irish Times expert columnist Fintan O'Toole said today, frustration that this kind of better deal was available to the UK as far back as 2021. The EU was always willing to make changes to the protocol, including those it has agreed to. The impediment was entirely on the side of the UK government, the ERG and the DUP, with their imbecilic posturings and impossible demands. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

8 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

No, it is as the Irish Times expert columnist Fintan O'Toole said today, frustration that this kind of better deal was available to the UK as far back as 2021. The EU was always willing to make changes to the protocol, including those it has agreed to. The impediment was entirely on the side of the UK government, the ERG and the DUP, with their imbecilic posturings and impossible demands. 

Now who's rewriting history?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jun/10/macron-warns-johnson-nothing-is-negotiable-over-northern-ireland-protocol

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jul/22/von-der-leyen-rejects-boris-johnson-bid-to-renegotiate-irish-protocol

Edited February 28, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

50 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The Republc of Ireland's only interest was seeing no border on the Island of Ireland. The EU exploited that by making the requirements for the Irish sea border so difficult as to never be realistically acceptable to the unionists for wider political motives.

You only have to look at the enormous contrast between this agreement and the first agreement to see that any claims that what was originally agreed was good faith best efforts on the EU's part is laughable.

Under the circumstances, that's compltetely forgivable and understandable, but let's call a spade a spade.

Why should the EU be bothered about 1.5M Unionists being upset? Hardly exploitation. It was just looking after their own interests which surely is what the referendum as about for the UK?

I am fed up with the Unionists bleating on. Ireland for the Irish.

[Barbe bleu 832]

Personally I think everyone should take a break from this channel. Brexit has dominated some lives here  way too much and I think some could do with a bit of a rest and time to concentrate on other things.

It's good to talk and maybe there is some therapy value in it all but there's also fixation and obsession. 

[ricardo 7,396]

6 minutes ago, sonyc said:

You've not been reading then. I have repeatedly said so and even started that topic off. At no stage have I not welcomed this.

It's clear you think those that voted remain are idiots and wan*ers. I suppose you have stated the latter so at least you're being honest. 

I'm off from this thread for a while. Imagine having a feeling or an opinion on something that you share with other like-minded posters but be thought of so poorly.

 

 

No one thinks poorly of you SONYC, quite the opposite in fact. I am quite happy for those of remain or rejoin persuasion to hold and express their opinions and in no way do i reguard them as ****$ or idiots. They have an arguably valid view that its ok to pool a bit of sovereignty in pursuit of economic advantage, its just not one that i happen to agree with.

The E.U. have made it quite clear where their ultimate goal lies and again its not somewhere that any of us on this side of the fence want to go. I can't  speak for others but the referendum seemed to be the last opportunity I would get to stop this happening and I have no regrets on my vote.

In recent years contributions to this thread have been almost entirely dominated by one side who appear unable to move beyond E.U. good, U.K. bad mood plus Leavers are thick and racist. Those of us on the other side seldom bother to waste our time arguing with a brick wall or with people who think we are too old and uneducated to string a sentence together.

Finally we have some new developments that promise a way  out of the log jam, perhaps because enough time has passed for tempers to cool. Whatever the reason, whats on offer now wasn't on offer before and whats on offer to two million people in N.I. won't ever be on offer to sixty seven million people in the rest of the U.K. It is now my fervent hope that the thread can revert to rational argument where conflicting opinions are respected and not denigrated. 

I realise that hope often triumphs over expectations.

 

 

 

[sonyc 5,541]

25 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

What, like being a narrow-minded racist bigot based on how you voted, you mean?

Ricardo's not directing it at you personally; it's just a reflection of the sort of condescending remarks leave voters have been on the brunt of for so many of you for so long.

I didn't even vote to leave the EU, but I'm still treated with contempt on here for daring to point out, on the 'positive Brexit thread' no less, how things could potentially work out positively; none of you want to hear it though, because you all know better.

I have not been personal or directed any slight against any poster. I once posted  a comment "F****** Brexiters" and apologised in my next post.

There's tons of stuff to be getting on with than spend my 30 minutes a day here. Today I've come back several times because there was a debate going on so I was joining in. But now regretting it! 

My absence will at least be welcomed in some quarters so it's a plus all round. That's me finding a positive. I try and be positive as much as possible and even if annoyed I will sometimes try and find humour in it.

I don't find folk who think similarly annoying. I feel supported that there are like minded. I don't mind those that are anti Remainers either. But then a thread becomes more pointed and personal and as a fairly sensitive sort of chap I run for cover🙂 because I can't really be bothered to get into spats or personal arguments. It all feels rather meaningless.

I'm happy to leave it here and even I'm okay (if not happy) to be felt in the wrong and that my views are not so acceptable to some. I've never meant to be personal. 

I sometimes leave for a while anyway. Standard behaviour from me. Just become more of an observer and a hermit.

 

[ricardo 7,396]

30 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

. The EU was always willing to make changes to the protocol, including those it has agreed to. 

I know i shouldn't  have, but I nearly wee'd myself at this bit🤣

[littleyellowbirdie 2,586]

1 minute ago, sonyc said:

I have not been personal or directed any slight against any poster. I once posted  a comment "F****** Brexiters" and apologised in my next post.

There's tons of stuff to be getting on with than spend my 30 minutes a day here. Today I've come back several times because there was a debate going on so I was joining in. But now regretting it! 

My absence will at least be welcomed in some quarters so it's a plus all round. That's me finding a positive. I try and be positive as much as possible and even if annoyed I will sometimes try and find humour in it.

I don't find folk who think similarly annoying. I feel supported that there are like minded. I don't mind those that are anti Remainers either. But then a thread becomes more pointed and personal and as a fairly sensitive sort of chap I run for cover🙂 because I can't really be bothered to get into spats or personal arguments. It all feels rather meaningless.

I'm happy to leave it here and even I'm okay (if not happy) to be felt in the wrong and that my views are not so acceptable to some. I've never meant to be personal. 

I sometimes leave for a while anyway. Standard behaviour from me. Just become more of an observer and a hermit.

 

Sorry, you're the last person on here I want to be bickering with anyway. Probably sensible to walk away for a bit, but...

7 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Why should the EU be bothered about 1.5M Unionists being upset? Hardly exploitation. It was just looking after their own interests which surely is what the referendum as about for the UK?

I am fed up with the Unionists bleating on. Ireland for the Irish.

...sorry, but this is an absolutely bloody disgraceful comment. All of those unionists are Irish. Jeffrey Donaldson, leader of the DUP had two cousins murdered by the IRA. The Good Friday Agreement was all about taking the heat out of the situation for both sides to give people a chance to live in peace, which has been supported by both the UK and Irish government. How dare you blithely dismiss one side of it so callously?

[Herman 9,820]

As I have previously mentioned I joined in the brexit debate because of the misinformation, poor information and downright lies. It's disappointing to still see the same stuff being guffed out 7 years down the line and I will try and call it out, even if it is annoying some. 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

41 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Sorry, you're the last person on here I want to be bickering with anyway. Probably sensible to walk away for a bit, but...

...sorry, but this is an absolutely bloody disgraceful comment. All of those unionists are Irish. Jeffrey Donaldson, leader of the DUP had two cousins murdered by the IRA. The Good Friday Agreement was all about taking the heat out of the situation for both sides to give people a chance to live in peace, which has been supported by both the UK and Irish government. How dare you blithely dismiss one side of it so callously?

What do you mean disgraceful? You are a fine one to talk. You have alienated so many posters on here with your dogma. I was quite willing to respect your arguments but if you can't discuss without insults then forget it.

They are not Irish according to them, they are British. In what way would it harm them to become part of a united Ireland. Are you suggesting the Southern Irish Government would be any worse than the UK one? An Ireland that is part of the EU. The EU that the North voted to remain. A north that has a GDP of 0.7% higher than the UK by still remaining under much of the EU for the last three years.

Don't just pick out two of Donaldon's cousins. How about British military deaths?  How many civilians died because they wouldn't power share? I would suggest the majority of UK citizens would happily be rid of them as part of the UK.

And they are not one side of the argument. They are the only ones arguing.