The Positive Brexit Thread

[sonyc 5,526]

3 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Brexit: A portmanteau meaning British Exit referring to Britain's withdrawal from the EU. Withdrawal from the EU is finished; the UK is no longer a member of the EU.

The notion that Brexit has only just begun is as ridiculous as suggesting that the process of quitting your job has only just begun once you've cleared your desk, handed over your security pass, and left the building; it's the process of continuing to survive that begins at that point.

 

I don't agree with your metaphor at all. That is absolutism. Like another absolute, death - does that mean a person is simply buried in some cold ground? You could argue that but it wouldn't really convince many. Their 'existence' is over by definition. But the effects, the feeling lasts years if not forever.

And it's  because the UK had and has a relationship with the EU. And relationships are dynamic.

I lost a very good friend years ago LYB and his memory and all the meaning of his life for me is as strong now, possibly stronger.

Talk of divorce is not inappropriate either. That is a deflection. To try and argue otherwise is in bad faith. In my opinion. That is why there are countless pages in just about every newspaper about Brexit, why millions of people remain at the very least interested if not outraged. The only people wanting to decry talk about Brexit ("don't you think it's time you moved on") are those that placed their X in the ballot box for it.

Posters know that not every issue is Brexit related. They are not sulking in their UK homes. Many posters are doing something to try and be constructive in local service, volunteering etc. Many have not given up on the UK. What folk do realise is that we have a rogue administration that has politicised Brexit so much. The same administration that wants asylum seekers deported to Rwanda. The same administration that has voted for water companies to keep polluting. Outrageous things you must admit? And immigration is running unchecked but EU nationals have left and Indian and Nigerian labour has replaced them mainly if you look at ONS reports. So what was Brexit for? As this thread states it was about a Positive Brexit.

The matter won't be going away. Brexiters will dwindle in number. The tide is already starting to turn and we ought to be forming better relations with the EU after 2024. We need to for security, for research, for science let alone as our closest trading bloc. I can't wait. And I want my sons to have their right of freedom of movement back too. And their offspring. Unlike Brexiters I want a better future for future generations and I see that as being part of a bigger world not a smaller one. That vote was made by some people being very, very selfish. I don't wish to apologise either for that statement because those values are very different to mine (on that matter, not on everything).

You may wish to carry on the argument on the fact that it is done. I'm sure you will. But it goes far deeper for me.

Edited February 23, 2023 by sonyc

[Erraticus 55]

Apologies for intruding, but if you are prepared to do a little browsing on the internet to find a broader perspective than simply jumping onto the sneering anti-brexit bandwagon you might develop a wider and more objective view. 

 

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/fruit-and-vegetable-shortage-due-to-poor-weather-in-spain-irish-retailers-say-1436373.html

 

Irish retailers have expressed concern about a shortage in availability of certain fruit and vegetables with salad items such as tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers proving harder to source due to poor weather conditions in Spain and North Africa.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

21 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I don't agree with your metaphor at all. That is absolutism. Like another absolute, death - does that mean a person is simply buried in some cold ground? You could argue that but it wouldn't really convince many. Their 'existence' is over by definition. But the effects, the feeling lasts years if not forever.

And it's  because the UK had and has a relationship with the EU. And relationships are dynamic.

I lost a very good friend years ago LYB and his memory and all the meaning of his life for me is as strong now, possibly stronger.

Talk of divorce is not inappropriate either. That is a deflection. To try and argue otherwise is in bad faith. In my opinion. That is why there are countless pages in just about every newspaper about Brexit, why millions of people remain at the very least interested if not outraged. The only people wanting to decry talk about Brexit ("don't you think it's time you moved on") are those that placed their X in the ballot box for it.

Posters know that not every issue is Brexit related. They are not sulking in their UK homes. Many posters are doing something to try and be constructive in local service, volunteering etc. Many have not given up on the UK. What folk do realise is that we have a rogue administration that has politicised Brexit so much. The same administration that wants asylum seekers deported to Rwanda. The same administration that has voted for water companies to keep polluting. Outrageous things you must admit? And immigration is running unchecked but EU nationals have left and Indian and Nigerian labour has replaced them mainly if you look at ONS reports. So what was Brexit for? As this thread states it was about a Positive Brexit.

The matter won't be going away. Brexiters will dwindle in number. The tide is already starting to turn and we ought to be forming better relations with the EU after 2024. We need to for security, for research, for science let alone as our closest trading bloc. I can't wait. And I want my sons to have their right of freedom of movement back too. And their offspring. Unlike Brexiters I want a better future for future generations and I see that as being part of a bigger world not a smaller one. That vote was made by some people being very, very selfish. I don't wish to apologise either for that statement because those values are very different to mine (on that matter, not on everything).

You may wish to carry on the argument on the fact that it is done. I'm sure you will. But it goes far deeper for me.

The Brexit 'divorce'. This term was widely used throughout the media globally including on the continent. Why are you only disagreeing with the metaphor now?

Relationships are dynamic, but we and the EU are now formally and legally separated. We still have a relationship with them as third parties, but not as fellow members of the same bloc. Brexit is over; we have divorced; we have quit our job; we are no longer members of the EU. Dress it up how you want, philosophise about it as much as you like, rake over the coals as much as you want, it's done.

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[benchwarmer 625]

1 hour ago, Erraticus said:

Apologies for intruding, but if you are prepared to do a little browsing on the internet to find a broader perspective than simply jumping onto the sneering anti-brexit bandwagon you might develop a wider and more objective view. 

 

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/fruit-and-vegetable-shortage-due-to-poor-weather-in-spain-irish-retailers-say-1436373.html

 

Irish retailers have expressed concern about a shortage in availability of certain fruit and vegetables with salad items such as tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers proving harder to source due to poor weather conditions in Spain and North Africa.

No one disputes that adverse weather conditions are the root cause of the shortage.  Ask Irish retailers and that's exactly what you would expect them to say.  The reasons why some countries are affected more than others are not their concern.  Ask Irish economists and you might get a more nuanced response.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2023 by benchwarmer

[benchwarmer 625]

20 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

The Brexit 'divorce'. This term was widely used throughout the media globally including on the continent. Why are you only disagreeing with the metaphor now?

Relationships are dynamic, but we and the EU are now formally and legally separated. We still have a relationship with them as third parties, but not as fellow members of the same bloc. Brexit is over; we have divorced; we have quite our job; we are no longer members of the EU. Dress it up how you want, philosophise about it as much as you like, rake over the coals as much as you want, it's done.

 

It's not unknown for divorced people to remarry.

Edited February 23, 2023 by benchwarmer

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

Just now, benchwarmer said:

No one disputes that adverse weather conditions are the root cause of the shortage.  Ask Irish retailers and that's exactly what you would expect them to say.  The reasons why some countries are affected more than others is not their concern.  Ask Irish economists and you might get a more nuanced response.

 

 

That's a bit of fudge answer. If it's mostly about Brexit in the UK, it shouldn't be happening in our geographically similarly situated neighbour that's still in the EU.

[Herman 9,777]

11 minutes ago, Erraticus said:

Apologies for intruding, but if you are prepared to do a little browsing on the internet to find a broader perspective than simply jumping onto the sneering anti-brexit bandwagon you might develop a wider and more objective view. 

 

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/fruit-and-vegetable-shortage-due-to-poor-weather-in-spain-irish-retailers-say-1436373.html

 

Irish retailers have expressed concern about a shortage in availability of certain fruit and vegetables with salad items such as tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers proving harder to source due to poor weather conditions in Spain and North Africa.

Yes, we know. It is also logistics, market costs and brexit paperwork. You messed about with free, unhindered trade and these are the knock on effects. 

[benchwarmer 625]

43 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That's a bit of fudge answer. If it's mostly about Brexit in the UK, it shouldn't be happening in our geographically similarly situated neighbour that's still in the EU.

According to the Irish Maritime Development Office, pre-Brexit only 16% of imports from continental Europe reached Ireland direct; the rest came via the UK.  By the end of 2021 this had increased to over 30% via new ferry routes between Ireland and France, but there's still a way to go before Irish trade is fully integrated. 

Your assumption that "being in the EU" means that Ireland shouldn't be affected says it all about the Brexit mentality.  Ireland is not an island except in the geographical sense, and nor is the UK.

Edited February 23, 2023 by benchwarmer

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

39 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I don't agree with your metaphor at all. That is absolutism. Like another absolute, death - does that mean a person is simply buried in some cold ground? You could argue that but it wouldn't really convince many. Their 'existence' is over by definition. But the effects, the feeling lasts years if not forever.

And it's  because the UK had and has a relationship with the EU. And relationships are dynamic.

I lost a very good friend years ago LYB and his memory and all the meaning of his life for me is as strong now, possibly stronger.

Talk of divorce is not inappropriate either. That is a deflection. To try and argue otherwise is in bad faith. In my opinion. That is why there are countless pages in just about every newspaper about Brexit, why millions of people remain at the very least interested if not outraged. The only people wanting to decry talk about Brexit ("don't you think it's time you moved on") are those that placed their X in the ballot box for it.

Posters know that not every issue is Brexit related. They are not sulking in their UK homes. Many posters are doing something to try and be constructive in local service, volunteering etc. Many have not given up on the UK. What folk do realise is that we have a rogue administration that has politicised Brexit so much. The same administration that wants asylum seekers deported to Rwanda. The same administration that has voted for water companies to keep polluting. Outrageous things you must admit? And immigration is running unchecked but EU nationals have left and Indian and Nigerian labour has replaced them mainly if you look at ONS reports. So what was Brexit for? As this thread states it was about a Positive Brexit.

The matter won't be going away. Brexiters will dwindle in number. The tide is already starting to turn and we ought to be forming better relations with the EU after 2024. We need to for security, for research, for science let alone as our closest trading bloc. I can't wait. And I want my sons to have their right of freedom of movement back too. And their offspring. Unlike Brexiters I want a better future for future generations and I see that as being part of a bigger world not a smaller one. That vote was made by some people being very, very selfish. I don't wish to apologise either for that statement because those values are very different to mine (on that matter, not on everything).

You may wish to carry on the argument on the fact that it is done. I'm sure you will. But it goes far deeper for me.

Also, nobody has a right to freedom of movement in the EU; if it was a right then you would still have that right. The EU removed our indvidual 'EU citizenship' as a consequence of the UK leaving the EU.

Edited February 23, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[sonyc 5,526]

31 minutes ago, Erraticus said:

Apologies for intruding, but if you are prepared to do a little browsing on the internet to find a broader perspective than simply jumping onto the sneering anti-brexit bandwagon you might develop a wider and more objective view. 

 

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/fruit-and-vegetable-shortage-due-to-poor-weather-in-spain-irish-retailers-say-1436373.html

 

Irish retailers have expressed concern about a shortage in availability of certain fruit and vegetables with salad items such as tomatoes, peppers and cucumbers proving harder to source due to poor weather conditions in Spain and North Africa.

Sorry to intrude too. A little bit more objectivity here for your superior mind.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/23/we-have-to-pay-more-for-food-britains-biggest-tomato-farmer-on-the-runaway-costs-of-growing?

Yours,

Sneering Anti-Brexit bandwagon brigade.

 

 

Edit... Wonder if the SABB is like the Anti Growth Coalition?

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

If you don't focus on history, how do you not repeat it?

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

27 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Also, nobody has a right to freedom of movement in the EU; if it was a right then you would still have that right. The EU removed our indvidual 'EU citizenship' as a consequence of the UK leaving the EU.

I'm curious as it if this is the reason why you seem so anti EU. Living in France because I guess you like it it there, with presumably settled status yet you have now lost your right of FOM as a consequence of Brexit - yet you blame the EU for this?

Your loss of FOM is a direct consequence of Brexit (or more precisely leaving the SM) and not caused by the EU. You are a simply a foreigner.

I don't blame the EU for that - or the individual countries that are just applying the rules. The same is true for Europeans now settled in the UK. The fault lies squarely with those who voted for insularity.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

For adverse weather condition read climate change,  so the growth for ever regardless of what it will do to the future brigade can go and suck eggs, if they can get some. brexit was a mistake and it has hit us more than anybody else. Food insecurity is to follow as our farmers rather grow sugar beet and rapeseed diversify ecologically to get Government subsidies, than re planting apple trees, grow veg. or grains that are currently imported at great cost.

We have lost a massive EU market and this un mandated furious Government must be held to account for their economic massaker.

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

Pretty definitive.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/23/uk--fresh-food-shortages-rationing-spanish-farmers-blame-brexit-import-rules

[Herman 9,777]

20 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Pretty definitive.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/23/uk--fresh-food-shortages-rationing-spanish-farmers-blame-brexit-import-rules

The brexiters still think we are lying to them, trying to deceive them. We are simply trying to bring facts into the open. 

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

Just now, Herman said:

The brexiters still think we are lying to them, trying to deceive them. We are simply trying to bring facts into the open. 

Yes Herman.

The simple truth is that Brexit simply makes any difficulty or problem worse - be that tomatoes, EVs, steel or indeed the sad politics of NI. 

I'm struggling to see any real positives at all - apart from demonstrating to the rest of the world what not to do. 

[Herman 9,777]

1 hour ago, nevermind, neoliberalism has had it said:

For adverse weather condition read climate change,  so the growth for ever regardless of what it will do to the future brigade can go and suck eggs, if they can get some. brexit was a mistake and it has hit us more than anybody else. Food insecurity is to follow as our farmers rather grow sugar beet and rapeseed diversify ecologically to get Government subsidies, than re planting apple trees, grow veg. or grains that are currently imported at great cost.

We have lost a massive EU market and this un mandated furious Government must be held to account for their economic massaker.

The brexiters are highly likely to be the same ones that think climate change is a hoax. I'm not sure how we can persuade them that both are going to hit us hard?! 

[A Load of Squit 5,170]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

If you don't focus on history, how do you not repeat it?

"The history book on the shelf,

Is always repeating it's self."

Benny & Bjorn, visionaries in shiny stage gear. 

 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

19 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

"The history book on the shelf,

Is always repeating it's self."

Benny & Bjorn, visionaries in shiny stage gear. 

 

Like Brad Whitaker in The Living Daylights, he met his Waterloo. 😉

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

The brexiters are highly likely to be the same ones that think climate change is a hoax. I'm not sure how we can persuade them that both are going to hit us hard?! 

What climate change they ask? I like it hotter they say. And I don't intend to spend time in the Arctic. And it doesn't bother me about food, mine is frozen from Iceland.

(Believe me I have heard that last phrase)

Edited February 23, 2023 by keelansgrandad

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

A ha - the Brexiteers are getting their way. Playing to their inner Baldrick's'

Theresa Coffey suggests people would be eating turnips right now under seasonal eating

Defra secretary of state Theresa Coffey has suggested that UK shoppers would be eating turnips this winter, not hoping to buy tomatoes, without overseas imports.

Coffey was asked by Conservative MP Selaine Saxby whether she agreed that supermarkets import “far too many” products, and the UK should be eating more seasonably to support British farmers.

[Aggy 755]

14 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

A ha - the Brexiteers are getting their way. Playing to their inner Baldrick's'

 

Can’t see her suggesting we reduce coffee imports and make do with the Baldrick substitute though

[sonyc 5,526]

18 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

A ha - the Brexiteers are getting their way. Playing to their inner Baldrick's'

Theresa Coffey suggests people would be eating turnips right now under seasonal eating

Defra secretary of state Theresa Coffey has suggested that UK shoppers would be eating turnips this winter, not hoping to buy tomatoes, without overseas imports.

Coffey was asked by Conservative MP Selaine Saxby whether she agreed that supermarkets import “far too many” products, and the UK should be eating more seasonably to support British farmers.

I think we may as well get back to good old British fare and forget all the foreign food we eat - put it at least on the top shelf (thinking ratatouille, that weird pasta stuff, any french delicacies, Spanish specialities and so on) and get back to boiling those turnips (a good half hour). In fact I came across this rather brilliant chart. Anything from those top tiers for me. 

[Aggy 755]

5 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I think we may as well get back to good old British fare and forget all the foreign food we eat - put it at least on the top shelf (thinking ratatouille, that weird pasta stuff, any french delicacies, Spanish specialities and so on) and get back to boiling those turnips (a good half hour). In fact I came across this rather brilliant chart. Anything from those top tiers for me. 

Are Yorkshire puddings the most overrated thing ever? Three tiers above a pork pie? Behave.

[Herman 9,777]

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

I think we may as well get back to good old British fare and forget all the foreign food we eat - put it at least on the top shelf (thinking ratatouille, that weird pasta stuff, any french delicacies, Spanish specialities and so on) and get back to boiling those turnips (a good half hour). In fact I came across this rather brilliant chart. Anything from those top tiers for me. 

So its a trade deal with the Swedes then

[Yellow Fever 3,792]

The truly mind boggling notion is that Coffey is so unworldly that she didn't see the Turnip / Baldrick jokes at her expense coming.

What political planet does she live on ?

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

45 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

The truly mind boggling notion is that Coffey is so unworldly that she didn't see the Turnip / Baldrick jokes at her expense coming.

What political planet does she live on ?

Planet Tory where money grows on trees but only they can shake the tree.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

20 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I'm curious as it if this is the reason why you seem so anti EU. Living in France because I guess you like it it there, with presumably settled status yet you have now lost your right of FOM as a consequence of Brexit - yet you blame the EU for this?

Your loss of FOM is a direct consequence of Brexit (or more precisely leaving the SM) and not caused by the EU. You are a simply a foreigner.

I don't blame the EU for that - or the individual countries that are just applying the rules. The same is true for Europeans now settled in the UK. The fault lies squarely with those who voted for insularity.

I am definitely not anti-EU; I am highly critical of the EU and have been since the early 2000s when the Euro was first put into circulation. I didn't believe there was any sense in having a single currency for different countries operating different fiscal policies. Did you know that Germany actually failed to adhere to the EU's rules for qualification for the Euro in the runup to its adoption? They went ahead anyway, and Germany has been a huge benefactor from the Euro while others have suffered massively because of it; the absence of a mechanism for wealthier parts of the Eurozone to give money to poorer parts in the sums necessary to make the economy cohesive is why the Euro should never have happened in my view. Beyond that, there are countless examples of EU rules being ignored at convenience, which put the UK at a a disadvantage give that our culture tends to favour gold plating all rules. A good example of this was the way it was put on the statutes in the UK to legally elevate EU law to overrule existing UK law automatically, which is a step not widely taken to my knowledge.

https://www.ft.com/content/dfb8adf7-7ca4-384c-a737-f28c0dc46924

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/17/germany-france-account-for-most-eu-state-aid-heres-why-its-a-concern

I haven't lost freedom of movement in practical terms. I can come and go between here and the UK as I please; I can go anywhere I want in the Schenghen zone whenever I want. What I can no longer do is work in any other EU country as I please and I can't vote in French local elections any more. These were consequences of my status as an EU citizen, which I no longer have.

Citizenship is a strong word. The Geneva convention makes it illegal in international law to make anybody stateless; that's how much citizenship is supposed to mean.Citizenship is supposed to mean that the state has responsibility for that person from the cradle to the grave.

In the recent case of Shamima Begum there has been much agitation at the fact the Home Secretary stripped her of British citizenship on the grounds she was a national security threat - and a traitor in the eyes of most of the British public - because citizenship is supposed to mean that the state has a responsibility to the individual concerned, no matter what they do. It was technically lawful because her right to citizenship elsewhere meant that technically she wasn't being rendered stateless. Nevertheless, many people are highly exercised on her behalf.

The EU created EU citizenship. EU citizenship, prior to Brexit, was treated in ECJ cases as something additional to national citizenship rather than a consequence of national citizenship; equally, supposedly EU citizenship is grants the EU citizen individual rights. It is the EU that upholds those rights of EU citizens.

On those grounds, while our right to EU citizenship was consequent of the UK signing EU treaties, we were made EU citizens by the EU; the EU made me an EU citizen in 1992, alongside most of the other people on this forum and the populations of every other EU state by the authority of the EU. As such, it was the EU's decision to revoke our EU citizenship as a consequence of the UK leaving the EU, in spite of the fact that they're supposed to be rights of the individual.

When you think about it, Shamima Begum's one case, as an actual traitor to her country, has caused much leaping about in her defence for what is seen as an abuse of individual rights; the EU stripped over 60,000,000 of its own citizens of their rights as EU citizens regardless of whether they wanted to stay in the EU or not. The ECJ was asked whether the EU had responsibility to uphold the rights of EU citizens and the ECJ said no.

Politically, I suspect the UK government was as happy to see us stripped of our EU citizenship as the EU was, since it inherently muddied the waters. Indeed, had the EU ruled the way I think it should have done, I think the UK government would have had a real headache about how it dealt with EU citizens in the UK. Personally, I think the UK would probably have finished up having to automatically grant EU citizens in the UK automatic UK citizenship or something along those lines although, but we won't know, because in the end the EU allowed politics to overrule law on the case of EU citizenship.

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Aggy 755]

1 hour ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

. A good example of this was the way it was put on the statutes in the UK to legally elevate EU law to overrule existing UK law automatically, which is a step not widely taken to my knowledge.

https://www.ft.com/content/dfb8adf7-7ca4-384c-a737-f28c0dc46924

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2023/01/17/germany-france-account-for-most-eu-state-aid-heres-why-its-a-concern

I

 

Most countries in the EU have established that EU law is supreme. There have been a handful of cases where some have tried to argue EU law can’t be supreme over domestic constitutional rights (it helps when you have an actual written constitution).

One reason why many didn’t have statutes expressly referring to EU law taking precedence is because their constitutions already say international treaties take precedence.