Cantiaci Canary 609 Posted December 8, 2005 Having read the posts on this forum for a while now I am finally forced to contribute. I am utterly appalled at the ridiculous messages that have been put up for display over the past few weeks. As much as anyone else I am gutted about the abysmal performances this season (... the away game at MK Dons was truly the most depressing few hours I have ever spent at a football ground, being the first team to lose to Millwall away, losing horrifically to QPR, Stoke, Luton, Wolves, losing at home to Wednesday, having the most goals conceded away from home other than Crewe, the most away defeats in the League ...) seeing a team of such promise failing to show talent and, even worse, courage ... it is bleak bleak bleak. However, I feel that the comments that some people have made about Nigel Worthington have been way off the mark. How can people merely brush aside a playoff final defeat on pens, the signings of Huckerby, Crouch, McKenzie, Safri and Ashton, being one point away from Premiership safety with the huffy sneer "he has taken us as far as he can" "his time is up" etc? This is appalling. Yes there are major problems that need sorting, yes we all pay a lot of our hard earned cash travelling half the way round the country, yes we may even lose some dream players in the future windows but when I am standing there singing "Never Mind the Danger" I mean it. I love this club with unquestionable but not blind faith. This is Worthy''s team ... he''s not going ... get over it ... get back to your computer games, where your ''I know better than a successful qualified football manager belief stems from and win the Champions League with Eto''o in a canary shirt and Maldini alongside Fleming (even though you probably don''t even play as Norwich and opt for a team well accustomed to constant moaning like Spurs&Wolves) and let a man who has proved he can do it prove you wrong (probably again).Come on City ... three points against Crewe and a glimmer of pride revived. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0peteddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0 Posted December 8, 2005 Is this really a majority view, am I really the confused one ?Are you really satisfied with a glimmer of pride after a season in the Prem, certainly any ambitions we may have had preseason have evaporated. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rossi 0 Posted December 8, 2005 One of the reasons for not writing war and peace is that your valid point becomes missed in the sheer mass of your speach. One of the issues I have with those that unconditionally back the manager is that the points you raise happened either two or four season ago, with the exception of our failed prem mission last season. That i do not consider to be a ''success.''To be so far away from survival, and then nearly make it, only to be beaten 6-0 does major things to a team and it''s managers. In a sport where psychology seems to have a major part, I believe that the effect of that has long and dangerous consequences on all concerned. We look like a unit that doesn''t have the energy to go through it all again. Thats why we need fresh ideas and personnel all round. And thats why our season hasnt started yet. I maybe wrong but i believe that the avg points per game is worse than when Hamilton went. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DumbleDelia is Magic 0 Posted December 8, 2005 This is a message board and we, like all fans (including youself), are allowed to express our opinion. However, I would have to say I disagree with your backing of Worthington. Where to start? The player successes you talk of. For every success, I guarantee I could name 2 failures for you. In fact I did a couple of weeks ago with my thread on Worthington''s signings. Secondly, yes we have had good times under Worthington. However, he has done nothing in the last 18 months to warrant keeping his job. We got relegated in the easiest Premiership ever, his signings in the last 18 months have been embarrassing (Ashton, Saf and Dav apart) and he has shown tactical naivety on several occasions. Finally, our performances this season have been woeful and embarrassing. It''s December 8th, 22 games into the season. He has been given time and financial backing. We are much closer to the relegation zone than the play-offs and there is no sign whatsoever that Worthington will turn it around. It''s time for him to go Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Making Plans 953 Posted December 8, 2005 See this is all we ever get - a bloody history lesson followed by the words "hope" and "might".Football is not about history - it''s about NOW and the FUTURE.NOW is crap and the FUTURE is bleak.Something has to change and that change must be THE MANAGER becuase the buck stops with him. Sorry, but it goes with the job. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Northern Canary 0 Posted December 8, 2005 Promotion wasnt all down to Worthy you know. Perhaps he cant manage, or he needs the players on his side Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LinkNR9 0 Posted December 8, 2005 I am of the humble opinion that promotion was IN SPITE OF Worthy, not BECAUSE of him! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cantiaci Canary 609 Posted December 9, 2005 I do apologise if I have given a history lesson or written War and Peace but the reason for this is because I have been sitting still for weeks building up a frustration with how some people have leapt wildly and unfairly to the extreme. Most of the responses to my starter post are fantastic and reasonable posts. I have no problem with people having different opinions, I have no problems with anyone who wants to see the back of Worthy but what I do have a problem with is ridiculous and unfair rants. To say, for example, we were promoted ''in spite'' of Worthington is utterly way off the mark and I imagine/hope that you are saying that tongue in cheek.People have valid reasons to want Worthy out but in the whole scheme of things his successes far outweigh his failures and a dip in form (which most teams including Wolves, Leicester, Palace, Saints go through post Premiership fall) is not a strong enough reason to break the successful and long term Worthington era. What do you want and realistically expect from Norwich City ... European football in two years? Konstantin Pobedonostsev Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
First Wizard 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Yes, and why not?, ambition with prudence, now who said that?.Bye Ashton, Green and Hucks.Another ''strange'' newbie!. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Making Plans 953 Posted December 9, 2005 [quote user="Konstantin Pobedonostsev"]and a dip in form [/quote]A dip ?13 wins in 60 games is not a dip it''s a Canyon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sheded 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Being beaten by Fulham by such a large margin WOULD have an effect on the team Rossi but if I recall correctly ¬¬¬¬ it was the TEAM that played utter crap !! NOT Nigel ! Place the blame where its due ! This witchhunt against Worthy sucks Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
0peteddMMyyyy0Falseen-USTrue 0 Posted December 9, 2005 I suggest if your''e getting frustrated don''t read this message board. Therapy will not be writing diatribes of a foolish nature with dubious content.So your''e frustrated at anti Worthy comments, I would suggest most of us are frustrated at the laughing stock our beloved City have become and will continue to become. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Johnny Hill 0 Posted December 9, 2005 So whats you''re relationship to worthless?I''m glad your happy with wothless'' contribution this season. Obviously you want him to stay, when the players aren''t playing for him anymore, and watch us drop a division. I think you are on your own on this one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rudolph Hucker 0 Posted December 9, 2005 While I feel Worthy is due for replacement I cannot accept he was not a key element in our promotion for which he deserves historical credit.After a mediocre start he brought in three players who ignited the season.He led a charm offensive with Huckerby with player and board and got his man.He kept a team at the top from Christmas to end of season by keeping complacency out.He drove the team to finish as champions and ensured, incidentally, that some players received the only or major honour of their careers.He was fortunate with some early single goal wins, injuries, players of character in their prime and did have home games without away fans to motivate their team but this was a genuine success on his part which has been marred by his failure to keep the team spirit together and build the squad along with other failings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cantiaci Canary 609 Posted December 9, 2005 Thank God some of the people who want to see Worthy leave have a rational and fair argument RH, I completely understand your viewpoint and thank you for some sensible and accurate comments. Sadly ("so what''s you''re relationship to worthless", "don''t read this message board") not everyone on your side of the debate shares your sense. Flippancy is a key indicator to a weak and poorly supported argument. I have no hidden agenda to back Worthington other than a belief that he is the man capable of turning things around and finally as a City fan I can make my frustrations heard on this board and perhaps if you don''t like reading messages that put forward a counter argument to your own viewpoint then maybe you shouldn''t read a message board which displays the views of lots of people? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rieg77 0 Posted December 9, 2005 [quote user="Konstantin Pobedonostsev"]I do apologise if I have given a history lesson or written War and Peacebut the reason for this is because I have been sitting still forweeks building up a frustration with how some people have leaptwildly and unfairly to the extreme. Most of the responses to my starterpost are fantastic and reasonable posts. I have no problem withpeople having different opinions, I have no problems with anyone whowants to see the back of Worthy but what I do have a problem with isridiculous and unfair rants. To say, for example, we were promoted ''inspite'' of Worthington is utterly way off the mark and I imagine/hopethat you are saying that tongue in cheek.People have valid reasons to want Worthy out but in the wholescheme of things his successes far outweigh his failures and a dipin form (which most teams including Wolves,Leicester, Palace, Saints go through post Premiership fall) is nota strong enough reason to break the successful and long termWorthington era. What do you want and realistically expect from NorwichCity ... European football in two years? Konstantin Pobedonostsev[/quote]I''m afraid most of the ''outers'' are beyond reasonable comment thesedays. They''ve tasted blood, you see!My belief is that a lot of this overbloated witch hunt stems fromunreasonable expectations at the beginning of the season, which havesince translated into unreasonable disappointment when we failed to winevery match.How anyone can justify claiming that the team won promotion in spite ofits manager is beyond me. And you will note that they offer nothing injustification of this comment.As for Wiz and his ''strange'' newbie comment. I''d rather have reasoneddebate that I may or may not disagree with then the kind of ridiculousnotions you post, which are clearly designed for the greatest impactand have little to do with common sense and reasoned debate. Accordingto the Wiz we should all be cheering for Crewe on Saturday. Now thatsquality support! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
percyvarco 0 Posted December 9, 2005 The attitude of the KTF is such that every manager has a job for life provided that they achieve something of note in their early days. Wake up to how life is in all its aspects. Those in responsible positions carry the burden and enjoy the spoils. When they can no longer bring success with the tools they have it is time for a change.I am a season ticket holder and a new poster who has been tolerant for too long. Time for a fresh approach. Replace Worthy and his staff. My realistic suggestion - Mark Bowen, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Citizen Journalist Foghorn 0 Posted December 9, 2005 I am sorry but It just seems worthy has ''lost it'' complacency has set in. It has all gone Stale.His refusal to sign a creative winger or Center Midfielder has meant few goals and these journyman signings have not helped.He wasted the premiership money on players that were not up to scratch (bar Ashton) and in ashtons case he should be building a team around him, not forcing him to go to the wings the whole time. Look at the crewe team built around him - relegation players and a star striker in the play offs when he left then almost relegated.Ashton is class but we do not play to his strengths Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FilletTheFishWife . 0 Posted December 9, 2005 the truth of the matter is the management AND the players are responsible for the current predicament.for every failed signing read the congratulatory messages on this message board at the time! Similarly check out the divided opinions thereafter. I still maintain that Helveg and Jonson were major disappointments (irrespective of where and when NW played them). Even the greatest managers would struggle to satiate the contradictory views of the fans. Also is Worthington really responsible for Ashton''s profligacy in front of goal? His poor finishing is as much responsible for our situation as our pitiful defending.I''ve been to most of the games this season incl Luton and QPR but I disagree with making Worthy the scapegoat for all our woes. Some of those sacred cows on the pitch are just as culpable.People conveniently use stats to state the case and include the premier season but exclude the promotion season. True the former is more recent but please find a team whose loss ratio has improved after promotion!This vendetta is most unpleasant. From some who thrive on vitriol , controversy and the vanity of seeing their posts given puiblicity this is totally predicatable. To yearn for your team to lose to substantiate your opinions is truly deplorable and beneath contempt. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Making Plans 953 Posted December 9, 2005 [quote user="Rudolph Hucker"]While I feel Worthy is due for replacement I cannot accept he was not a key element in our promotion for which he deserves historical credit.After a mediocre start he brought in three players who ignited the season.He led a charm offensive with Huckerby with player and board and got his man.He kept a team at the top from Christmas to end of season by keeping complacency out.He drove the team to finish as champions and ensured, incidentally, that some players received the only or major honour of their careers.He was fortunate with some early single goal wins, injuries, players of character in their prime and did have home games without away fans to motivate their team but this was a genuine success on his part which has been marred by his failure to keep the team spirit together and build the squad along with other failings.[/quote]More history (yawn) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Paul Aldrich 0 Posted December 9, 2005 KBI respect your right to voice an opinion, and it is good to see posters on this board with a different point of view - I would be absolutely delighted if I am proved wrong and we go surging up the table. As I have stated before on this board I am a three year season ticket holder and I will be at Carrow Rd next season regardless of which league we are play in, but this does not mean I am happy with the garbage I have had to endure this season. Yes I agree that NW has done well in the past, but quite frankly Norwich City are becoming more like the Labour Party every day - spin, spin, spin and reacting badly to criticism, all we hear is "cannot fault the commitment", "we have turned the corner". Whatever NW or Norwich City say there is something fundementally wrong at the club I love, they are just no telling us what it is. You know things are bad when the manager has a pop at the players, I for one do not buy the "some players have still got their heads in the Premiership" rant - If you look at the team that lost at Derby there were few that played a significant number of games in the Prem (or were even on our books) last season and those that were have been performing OK this season (Green, Drury, Doc and Ashton), so who/what was NW talking about ?I will finish with my usual question - How bad do things have to get before you call for the NCFC Board to take the appropriate action ? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rudolph Hucker 0 Posted December 9, 2005 If we are to ignore history then does this also include Worthy''s recent track record? People who try to re-interpret the past have totalitarian attitudes. Some of us do not have one dimensional views and make decisions on a balance of judgements, we hopefully gain credibility for our views against a person or situation by acknowledging certain positives but weighing against them with considered arguement.As opposed to ''Uh! Worthy Out!'' or ''Back the manager.'' Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cantiaci Canary 609 Posted December 9, 2005 Not a particularly thoughtful and productive comment! History is important because it is only through looking at where we have come from, how we did it and why we are where we are that we can properly assess our position and think about better ways of improving and helping our team than simply screaming SACK THE MANAGER. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Oso Butch 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Hey! With a name like Konstantin Pobedonostsev, I don''t suppose you''re thinking of buying the club, are you??? [8-)] [;)] Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jerzy Krukowski 5 Posted December 9, 2005 [quote user="LinkNR9"]I am of the humble opinion that promotion was IN SPITE OF Worthy, not BECAUSE of him![/quote]That is absolutely ridiculous. You can''t have it both ways, he either is responsible for the team performances or he''s not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jerzy Krukowski 5 Posted December 9, 2005 [quote user="1st Wizard"]Yes, and why not?, ambition with prudence, now who said that?.Bye Ashton, Green and Hucks.Another ''strange'' newbie!.[/quote]He puts a well written argument that you disagree with. Better that than an overdramatic rant designed to get replies. Who is the stranger? Stop trying to put people off from posting because you don;t agree with them Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lucky green trainers 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Kons, making patronising comments like "get back to your computergames" concerning fans who have legitimate comments to make overthe position of the club won''t win you loadsa geeky mates. (hasmy missus been in touch with you, becuase if not its an incredibleguess re my maldini and fleming combination?)If we take 4 points from our next 5 games, (have you seen who we''replaying?) we''ll likely be in the relegation zone and have a poorbargaining position re the jan transfer window, we could lose greeno,deano and hucks for 6-8m and who would want to come here to replacethem?Regarding blind faith, do you believe delia and co aren''t consideringtheir options re worthy, they''d be negligent not too - they are runninga business after all? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Colourful Canary 0 Posted December 9, 2005 Konstantin! If your vacuumm cleaner stops working, do you keep on hoovering, hoping it will miraculously recover ?Your original post was rather agressive in its tone, which is why so many forum members have taken exception to it!I appreciate your frustration, but please don''t attack other genuinesupporters for having a view. We all care deeply about NCFC.Nigel Worthington has been good for us, has now run out of ideas, teamshave worked him out and he is unable to change as he is not a goodtactician. We have become very predictable and he should therefore nowbe replaced. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Morph 24 Posted December 9, 2005 [quote user="Konstantin Pobedonostsev"]History isimportant because it is only through looking at where we have comefrom, how we did it and why we are where we are that we can properlyassess our position and think about better ways of improving andhelping our team than simply screaming SACK THE MANAGER.[/quote]Can''t disagree with your first part about history being important onthe condition that lessons are learnt from what has gone before. Ithink that is where the arguments on history begin to fall down withthe current situation.You can browse this message board and find numerous posts from lessvociferous posters about how the current coaching team have not learntfrom past endeavours and how this continues to be so.You ask all supporters to find better ways of helping the team. I don''tthink you''ll find a single poster who comes on this message board anddoes not give his all for the club on matchday. That''s not to say theywill then blindly accept the performance on the field if it''s a poor.Every one of the supporters who post here want the club to progress.Doing nothing other than pledging our allegiance and having blind faithin the current situation is leaving many supporters frustrated.What other ways can the supporters help? Many don''t like what they see on the field at the moment. If a decorating business comes and does a crappy job on decorating yourhouse - do you complain? I bet you do. That decorating business eitherbrushes (pardon the pun) up it''s act or finds it''s out of business.Football clubs can get away with selling poor product because for themost part the fan keeps coming through the turnstiles. However, thosefans do manifest their discontent with the product in other ways. Ithink that''s what you''re seeing here.Let me ask who do you think is responsible for the poor product at the moment? And more importantly how does the club fix it?As someone else noted, if Delia''s restaurant is performing badly whodoes she speak to to sort it out? I bet you it''s the head man that istold to sort it out or he/she will be looking for alternativeemployment. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites