“That was the boss… Google her”

[Ray 111]

Out of interest, what are ' northern monkess' must be some sort of ist surely!

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

1 minute ago, lake district canary said:

I've never understood how it is ok for a black person to use the N word to another black person, or a Pakistani to use the P word to another of the same country. If it is a no go word for some it should be a no go word for everyone. 

Surely you must be able to see the difference? Why someone on the ‘inside’ can use a phrase or word, but it is unacceptable to you for someone on the ‘outside’ to use it. 

It isn’t words that are the problem, but the meaning and connotations attached to them and how people from different places and backgrounds have attached different meanings to words. 

[Nuff Said 5,140]

21 minutes ago, Ray said:

I'm a bit lost on some of this, could someone explain if Frenchman or Dutchman are also offensive in today's world, if so then I've learnt something and thank you, if not could someone 'learn' me why Chinaman is, genuine question guys - thanks.

IMHO, it's racist because Chinese people (in this specific example at least, we could be talking about many ethnicities, religions, sexual preference...) frequently experience discriminatory behaviour based on their race/colour of their skin. This is not something most French or Dutch people have experienced, nor is there a long established history of it occurring. In other words, not all people are equal and those who are in a position of relative privilege cannot sensibly claim that they are being discriminated against on the grounds of that position of privilege.

 

I'm sure there some people reading this conversation want to make an argument along the lines of "I once went to France/India/Yorkshire/wherever and got treated badly because I was British/white/from Norfolk/whatever".  The point is that if you have benefited from being in a majority in the society you've grown up in and have not experienced discrimination, it's not really logical to suddenly claim you're in a disadvantaged minority. Although it might be educational. The discrimination needs to be sustained. After all, it might just be because you're a tw*t.

[Mello Yello 2,293]

1 minute ago, Ray said:

Out of interest, what are ' northern monkess' must be some sort of ist surely!

Monkess spelled incorrectist......

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

5 minutes ago, Orly said:

So who does?  Whoever identifies as a minority group?  

Well, here's the thing, everyone (even white people) will be able to claim some kind of minority identity if you divide people into 'groups' enough, or put them in different countries.

I'm not deriding your autonomy to be offended, which is your prerogative, but it wasn't a bit racist, it was a bit of a naff stereotype.  Racism is defined as : "prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior."   None of the above apply to the original comment imo.

I guess the ethnic group are more entitled to decide what is offensive. It is about many things, history, connotation, meaning etc. 

But largely, it is about power. Racial insult only really work when punching down.

My ‘bit racist’ was tonge in cheek and playing on the fact it is a phrase thrown around too often. I did not expect this long in depth thread. If I had known Keelan didn’t realise ‘Chinaman’ is an offensive term I would have made that clear. 

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

Αυτό είναι το αφεντικό, η Google της

 

[Mello Yello 2,293]

I do hope that our majority shareholder didn't whisper into Tim's ear and say "Well done, you clever clogs.".....

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

Sin an ceann, Google í

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

My ‘bit racist’ was tonge in cheek and playing on the fact it is a phrase thrown around too often. I did not expect this long in depth thread. If I had known Keelan didn’t realise ‘Chinaman’ is an offensive term I would have made that clear. 

Bethnal. I can assure you I meant no offence. I was merely highlighting previous posts on club topics regarding the wish for a Chinese consortium to be our owners instead of the lady, who regarding the OP, shows her undoubted love for the club and probably embodies what mos tNCFC feel about the club.

Once again accept my apology if I offended you.

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

Esse é o chefe, o Google dela

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

23 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

My ‘bit racist’ was tonge in cheek and playing on the fact it is a phrase thrown around too often. I did not expect this long in depth thread. If I had known Keelan didn’t realise ‘Chinaman’ is an offensive term I would have made that clear. 

Bethnal. I can assure you I meant no offence. I was merely highlighting previous posts on club topics regarding the wish for a Chinese consortium to be our owners instead of the lady, who regarding the OP, shows her undoubted love for the club and probably embodies what mos tNCFC feel about the club.

Once again accept my apology if I offended you.

I know were only making a joke Keelan, and I should have take a second and not posted ‘bit racist’ and explained why I would find it offensive - so sorry for that. 

[A Load of Squit 5,162]

This link for the people who find reading a bit tiresome,

 

[king canary 7,606]

34 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

My ‘bit racist’ was tonge in cheek and playing on the fact it is a phrase thrown around too often. I did not expect this long in depth thread. If I had known Keelan didn’t realise ‘Chinaman’ is an offensive term I would have made that clear. 

Bethnal. I can assure you I meant no offence. I was merely highlighting previous posts on club topics regarding the wish for a Chinese consortium to be our owners instead of the lady, who regarding the OP, shows her undoubted love for the club and probably embodies what mos tNCFC feel about the club.

Once again accept my apology if I offended you.

👍

[Drazen Muzinic 1,445]

1 hour ago, Bethnal Yellow and Green said:

Surely you must be able to see the difference? Why someone on the ‘inside’ can use a phrase or word, but it is unacceptable to you for someone on the ‘outside’ to use it. 

It isn’t words that are the problem, but the meaning and connotations attached to them and how people from different places and backgrounds have attached different meanings to words. 

It's very much this LDC. Certain colloquial terms have a more 'sinister' (for the want of a better word) history than others and their use as part of oppressive regimes or periods of history. Now we live in a more enlightened, post-modern time, we can see how those terms should not be used to generalise ethnicity (race is a social construct) and the connotations they hold for those they are directed at.

Lazy stereotyping and mass-media ideology drove most of the pre-conceived ideas previous generations hold about other ethnic groups. e.g.my mum thinks anybody with epicanthic folds in their upper eyelids are all Chinese and is always grumbling about not being able to get on the bus (she is on the University route) because it is full of 'chinks' despite the fact they are no more likely to be from China than she is.

To her, anybody non-Caucasian, be they Indian, Maghrebi African etc are all 'Pakis' and they all run corner shops and work all the hours (their) God sends. Clearly nonsense but I am battling against 80 years of ingrained hegemony and will now never change it.

One final example on a similar vein, I recently overheard my mother-in-law state '"there are now more gays on television than normal people''. Born before the second world war, long before 1967, she still singles out homosexuality as different.

You would hope that, as time moves on, generations will learn but the real sadness is there are still those being socialised into believing some of the right-wing views that are out there without weighing up the objective evidence available.

The personal parts have been hard to share but, reading this thread, I can see (and hopefully understand) the points of view on here and how the way we refer to others is still subliminally influenced by the generations we have lived through. This, coupled with the ever moving feast of what is or isn't acceptable, means we will get it 'wrong' sometimes.

 

 

PS - Squit, thank you for the original post - brilliant. I love Krul more and more each week.

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by Drazen Muzinic
Spelling and to get down from my high horse.

[lake district canary 4,531]

I understand and agree that certain words are verboten, but groups taking ownership and using certain words and saying no-one else can use them is just a form of peverse censorship - as in "I can use the word but you can't".  

If the N word is derogatory and insulting (which it is) then no-one should be using it in any context imo.

 

[Drazen Muzinic 1,445]

5 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I understand and agree that certain words are verboten, but groups taking ownership and using certain words and saying no-one else can use them is just a form of peverse censorship - as in "I can use the word but you can't".  

If the N word is derogatory and insulting (which it is) then no-one should be using it in any context imo.

 

https://theundefeated.com/features/if-you-truly-knew-what-the-n-word-meant-to-our-ancestors-youd-never-use-it/

 

[Bethnal Yellow and Green 1,557]

2 minutes ago, lake district canary said:

I understand and agree that certain words are verboten, but groups taking ownership and using certain words and saying no-one else can use them is just a form of peverse censorship - as in "I can use the word but you can't".  

If the N word is derogatory and insulting (which it is) then no-one should be using it in any context imo.

 

The n-word’s history is tied up with slavery, oppression and the barbaric treatment of black people in America by white people. So of course it has a different meaning when said by one back person to another compared to a white person saying it to a black person. 

There are no ‘forbidden’ words. There are just words that if you use them in the wrong context they will cause great offence. 

What you are expressing LDC, and it isn’t just you who says this, is a very white centric view. ‘If they can do it, why can’t I’. Well, for once, this is something a white person is excluded from. 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

It's absolutely ridiculous that folk can be attacked like this for words coming out of their mouths, obviously innocently, and offence taken largely on behalf of others who may or may not be offended. And yet what fuels racism, and indeed all hatred, is what's in the heart. And a hate-filled heart is often easy to spot on here when emotions run high and guards get dropped.

Is it racist to suggest racism is primarily a Western problem? TBH I'm not sure. How big does a group of people have to become before such comments become acceptable?

Here's something to think about from The Economist : -

THE annual “Spring Festival Gala”, broadcast on the eve of the lunar new year, is the most-watched television programme on Earth. It is also one of the most vetted by the authorities, for it is intended not merely to entertain its 800m-odd Chinese viewers. Less-than-subliminal messaging is designed to showcase how contented all Chinese are under a wise Communist leadership—and, in recent years, how gratefully the world welcomes China’s benign activities in it. So what could one make of an excruciatingly crass sketch in this year’s show that put racist stereotypes of Africans at the heart of the supposed jollity?

The skit’s topic was, for sure, a sketch-writer’s nightmare: celebration of a Chinese-built fast train in Kenya. And if the savannah backdrop and tribal dances with which the scene opened were the stuff of cliché, at least real Africans were used in the making of it. But then a Chinese actress appeared in blackface and African dress, with exaggerated fake buttocks and a bowl of fruit on her head. For no clear reason she had in tow a blackfaced Chinese man dressed as a monkey. The humorous highlight was meant to be when this woman’s daughter missed the prospect of a date with the show’s handsome Chinese host thanks to the unexpected arrival of his (Chinese) bride. Far from being upset for her daughter, the mother didn’t mind because, she exclaimed, “I love the Chinese people! I love China!” The audience were delighted.

 

Chinese officials often try to portray racism as primarily a Western problem. Yet there is a widespread tendency in China to look down on other races, especially black people. Two years ago a television ad for a laundry detergent showed a young Chinese woman luring a black man closer, triumphantly popping a detergent capsule into his mouth and stuffing him into a washing machine. At the end of the cycle, out came a fresh-faced Chinese man, over whom the woman swooned. Among the tens of thousands of Africans living in a neighbourhood of Guangzhou known as “Chocolate City”, many report racist slights.

The outraged response of many netizens in China to the African skit suggests a growing awareness at home that bigotry is a Chinese problem, too. It may be one that time will help alleviate. After all, America went from bans on inter-racial marriage to electing a black president in a mere four decades. And even those Chinese who acknowledge that China has a problem rightly observe that it is far from the worst offender. Myanmar burns Rohingya villages, Islamic State tried to wipe out the Yazidis, and Sudan until recently enslaved black Africans. Racism in China, by contrast, is seldom expressed violently.

But a problem it is, and one that is aggravated by the authorities’ efforts to suppress discussion of it (censors raced online to delete criticism of the TV sketch). The Communist Party fears that such debate may undermine its efforts to portray Chinese people as victims of Western racism during the 19th and early 20th centuries—a narrative of humiliation which the party regards as a crucial explanation of why it has the right to rule.

It does not help that long after scientific notions of race were demolished in the West, and social or behavioural classifications of race shown to be imagined constructs, race remains an accepted form of discourse in China—even in academic circles. Frank Dikötter of the University of Hong Kong argues that contemporary notions of race in China began to develop at the end of the 19th century among modernisers, who were inspired by Western intellectual fads such as social Darwinism. As the last imperial dynasty, the Qing, crumbled, the search was on to find a unifier for a sprawling empire, culturally and linguistically diverse, that encompassed Manchu rulers, Tibetan herders, Turkic caravan-drivers, Hunanese peasants, Shanghainese entrepreneurs and colonial subjects in Hong Kong. Neither religion nor language (no standard Chinese existed then) would serve.

Race, then, became the tool to forge an accidental nation out of empire—a project that absorbed Chinese nationalists for much of the 20th century. After the death of Mao Zedong, when academic life began to recover at universities, anthropology was rehabilitated. Its practitioners threw themselves into an orgy of cranial, serological and other tests—supposedly to prove that Tibetans, Uighurs and other officially defined “minority” peoples in China’s borderlands were closely related to a “Han” Chinese majority, and that all shared a common origin. The mythical Yellow Emperor enjoys an approved cult status in China as the progenitor of the Chinese race. Chinese academics remain curiously resistant to an “out of Africa” explanation of human origins.

An all-embracing device

This, says Mr Dikötter, is race put to an inclusionary use: preserving what in effect were China’s imperial borders. Of course, some groups are more equal than others. China’s 55 officially designated minorities are today still depicted in the state’s propaganda in terms remarkably like black people in the minstrel shows that were once popular in the West. They are cheerful, colourfully attired and prone to break into dance or song. Not usually harmful, they are nevertheless in need of raising to a less childlike plane of evolutionary development, the state suggests.

The same applies to Africans, and even other groups along China’s expanding “belt-and-road” network of investment in other countries’ infrastructure. It was Mao in the 1950s who first promoted the mantle of Chinese leadership in Africa—under the guise of class solidarity, but in reality with a whiff of racial tutelage. Today, the paternalism struggles to disguise itself, as in the recent variety show. But when the authorities signally fail to acknowledge China’s home-grown racism, they should not be surprised if their civilising mission goes underappreciated, either from ungrateful minorities in Xinjiang or Tibet, or from those who, in countries that face waves of state-led commercial involvement, complain of Chinese neocolonialism abroad.

This article appeared in the China section of the print edition under the headline "Mirror, mirror on the wall"

 

[king canary 7,606]

Oh yay, another chapter of 'Old White Guys Missing the Point.'

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Is that post meant to be ironic Kingo

[king canary 7,606]

1 minute ago, nutty nigel said:

Is that post meant to be ironic Kingo

No but I'm sure I'm in for some false equivalency about how me calling you an old white guy is racism.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

I didn't realise you were calling me an old white guy.

What point did I miss?

[Woodman 92]

1 more post for 40,000 Nutty...!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

I've retired.

Oh....

[king canary 7,606]

24 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

I didn't realise you were calling me an old white guy.

What point did I miss?

That nobody was suggesting racism is only a western problem. You're entire article saying 'Chinese people can be racist too!' is irrelevant. 

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Let's just say you missed the point then.

There are few differences between people. We all have far more in common than what divides us. Unfortunately many people highlight the divisions in order to create conflict. 

 

 

Edited February 5, 2019 by nutty nigel

[lappinitup 629]

44 minutes ago, king canary said:

Oh yay, another chapter of 'Old White Guys Missing the Point.'

Bit agist.

[CirclePoint 200]

Everyone is talking as though they’re going to change someone else’s perspective on the topic of racism.

If it’s not racism, it’s ageism. If not ageism it’s sexism. If not sexism is bigotry. If it’s it’s not bigotry then it’s some religious slur.

And if anyone believes they don’t have an ‘ism’ in them that creates a prejudice thought, then that person is truly ignorant.

Stop blaming how you feel on what other people say and you’ll find that taking responsibility for your own thoughts and feelings actually empowers you against the stupidity of ignorance.

[king canary 7,606]

3 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Let's just say you missed the point then.

There are few differences between people. We all have far more in common than what divides us. Unfortunately many people highlight the divisions in order to create conflict. 

 

 

Wow, it's like a motivational poster come to life...

The world is more complex than your meaningless feel good slogans.

[king canary 7,606]

3 minutes ago, lappinitup said:

Bit agist.

HOUSE