*****Official Match Thread v WBA*****

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

By Defender....I mean to put his head and body in the way on the line and clearing his lines both in the air and on the ground, putting his head in where in hurts....all the things he wouldve wanted somebody doing when condeding those 7 in 2 games vs forest and derby

....if youre talking playing the ball out from the back, thats a different matter

Ideally you'd want one of each

[hogesar 9,693]

6 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Thatll be the months off when he was injured?

He played start of the season and struggled.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

3 minutes ago, hogesar said:

He played start of the season and struggled.

He was carrying an injury into the season and then got injured again/recurrance of that injury in about the 4th or 5th game??

[nutty nigel 7,539]

7 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

By Defender....I mean to put his head and body in the way on the line and clearing his lines both in the air and on the ground, putting his head in where in hurts....all the things he wouldve wanted somebody doing when condeding those 7 in 2 games vs forest and derby

....if youre talking playing the ball out from the back, thats a different matter

Ideally you'd want one of each

So what happened in August when we conceded 7 in 2 games against WBA and Leeds?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

16 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Godfrey is a perfect centre back for the way we play. I have never seen him as effective in midfield as at the back. Thompson getting fit would give us another midfield option.

If anything happens to Tettey between now and the end of the season be it injury or suspension, I'd far rather see Godfrey covering our back 4 than Trybull again....

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

2 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

So what happened in August when we conceded 7 in 2 games against WBA and Leeds?

Theyre probably the 2 best teams in this league

[nutty nigel 7,539]

1 minute ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

If anything happens to Tettey between now and the end of the season be it injury or suspension, I'd far rather see Godfrey covering our back 4 than Trybull again....

We'll see. But that can only be on trust or imagination because I haven't seen him play there at this level.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

5 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

Theyre probably the 2 best teams in this league

Didn't concede 4 today...

Edited January 12, 2019 by nutty nigel

[westcoastcanary 173]

42 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

....so I'll ask again....who plays at CB if Zimmerman and Klose are fully fit?

...who is the midfield 3 behind Pukki if Buendia, Steipermann,and Hernandez are fully fit?

I've already answered those questions for you GJL.

 

[westcoastcanary 173]

34 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

By Defender....I mean to put his head and body in the way on the line and clearing his lines both in the air and on the ground, putting his head in where in hurts....all the things he wouldve wanted somebody doing when condeding those 7 in 2 games vs forest and derby

So exactly which of those 7 goals do you envisage Hanley would have prevented had he been playing? When we concede from set pieces, it is more often than not from the second ball. And, as I've said several times before, when it comes to open play defending, Zimmermann's legs have proved more valuable than Hanley's head. The idea that Hanley is some sort of clone of John Terry is ridiculously wide the mark.   

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

Godfrey is a modern centre back. As Rio Ferdinand might have said ‘what about all the headers and tackles I didn’t have to make...?’

This can be due due superior thinking, superior movement and anticipation or retaining possession so the opposition don’t have it to attack you with. Not defending is defending. 

Parma

 

 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

Godfrey is a modern centre back. As Rio Ferdinand might have said ‘what about all the headers and tackles I didn’t have to make...?’

This can be due due superior thinking, superior movement and anticipation or retaining possession so the opposition don’t have it to attack you with. Not defending is defending. 

Parma

 

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

1 minute ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Godfrey is a modern centre back. As Rio Ferdinand might have said ‘what about all the headers and tackles I didn’t have to make...?’

This can be due due superior thinking, superior movement and anticipation or retaining possession so the opposition don’t have it to attack you with. Not defending is defending. 

Parma

 

 

..any of those would have been nice for WBA's goal today?

[SwindonCanary 455]

It seems to me, that what ever team we put out, they always start off slowly !  Today it nearly cost us all points. We really have to start on the front foot instead of sitting back. 

[westcoastcanary 173]

59 minutes ago, GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary said:

..any of those would have been nice for WBA's goal today?

Our goal was pretty much a carbon copy. Both were made by the quality of the ball in and the quality of the scorer's run. In the case of our goal, too good for a very strong and experienced CB pairing (Dawson and Hegazy) and an equally experienced LB (Gibbs). Yet you think theirs was down to a mistake by Godfrey?

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

wasnt it?

The fact is we have/are conceding goals with him in defence too, particularly at home....its a problem that needs adressing, the question is , which is the best personnel to do it?

[Thirsty Lizard 3,166]

1 hour ago, SwindonCanary said:

It seems to me, that what ever team we put out, they always start off slowly !  Today it nearly cost us all points. We really have to start on the front foot instead of sitting back. 

Know what you mean Swindon, but it's not always the case - we started like a train against Derby and were 2-0 up and in total control after 30 minutes - and we all know how that ended up. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

As a striker, the goal is the product of some clever movement. If you prefer more robust old-fashioned defenders to deal with such movement, we’ll agree to differ.

As a coach the defending was the result of poor or unclear communication. The balls breaks from their left and initially (watch the defending not the ball) Lewis has Gayle. He passes him on to Godfrey to allow him to move wider and cover the switch ball to their right side (perfectly ok). Godfrey sees the danger space (near post/ our left side of the penalty area) though Gayle has moved further away from the ball into Zimmermann’s zone, so he passes him on again to Zimmermann. 

Gayle is cute and chooses this (perfect) moment to break. Zimmermann does not track (we’d have to talk to the players to know if he felt the communication wasn’t clear / too late / or he realised Gayle had run out of his zone and back into Godfrey’s. Zimmermann appears not to shout in either case, though Godfrey clearly realises what is happening, but Gayle now clearly has the jump on him and scores.

I feel that Lewis was too tight in the first place and could have been a yard or two wider. He makes the right decision, though at 2 yards wider, Godfrey has Gayle earlier and perhaps passes him on more clearly. Godfrey and Zimmermann are a little tight and all three are a yard or two sucked over towards the original delivery of the switch ball (from their left). Zimmermann ends up not really contributing (other than in Gayle’s favour as a decoy ‘marker’ of him). 

Credit to Gayle. Imperfect positioning by all. Zimmermann some responsibility. Godfrey was the danger space, but never really filled it. 

Exactly the kind of cute movement, fine-line positioning goal concession, that modern-style defenders train for and are suited for. Perhaps better, earlier communication might have prevented the space developing, perhaps. Almost every goal has defensive flaws. 

Godfrey is a great modern centre back and is extremely well-suited to the patterns of play we are trying to create. It is important to note that one of our primary defensive weapons is constructive, circulatory possession. 

Parma

[nutty nigel 7,539]

Or, look who was the nearest player to the goal scorer and blame him...

😀

[ron obvious 1,512]

5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Or, look who was the nearest player to the goal scorer and blame him...

😀

I think I may have been guilty of that rush to judgement Nigel.

Damn, this modern football mullarkey is so complicated.

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,777]

Where was this magnificent defender we apparantly had under our noses all along , who didnt kick a ball between August - December?

[nutty nigel 7,539]

You must hate this new set up GJ. Thing is I don't remember you being happy before. Perhaps you never will be🙃

[nutty nigel 7,539]

1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

I think I may have been guilty of that rush to judgement Nigel.

Damn, this modern football mullarkey is so complicated.

 

Poor old Doc suffered greatly through this. Midfielders didn't track their runners, Doc would be floundering in the box trying to mark everyone and block everything. He did a great job under those circumstances but was often the nearest player to the goal scorer...

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

In further simpler terms, you might note Farke’s avowed strategic determination that Norwich be ‘the protagonists’ in their play. In this context Godfrey was quite central and active in the passage of play (despite the final outcome).

Contrary to the inference that ‘naivety’ played a part in the unclear communication (cheap and I don’t think it’s relevant), it is Zimmermann who is rather passive throughout, Godfrey engages repeatedly in the action.

Fans tend to watch the ball and judge on the moment the goal is scored. The majority of strategic and technical errors are committed away from this and long before it.

Key errors can be what isn’t done, movements that aren’t made. The responsibility for a goal can easily primarily rest with someone who is conversely nowhere near the final action.

Parma 

[lake district canary 4,537]

I think it is amazing we have four centre backs of such calibre.  Any of the four would walk into any team in the division imo, so to have such a choice of defenders is fantastic.  Added to that, a goalkeeper who shows his ability every week and you get results like yesterday - restricting a top of the table side to one goal and having the ability up front to get a draw out of it.  

Should help the confidence going into the next match and beyond - we fear no-one.

 

[splendidrush 700]

Agree with this ldc, although reading through the thread you'd think our confidence would be shot and be in fear of our next opponents. 

[ron obvious 1,512]

4 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

 

... Gayle is cute and chooses this (perfect) moment to break. Zimmermann does not track (we’d have to talk to the players to know if he felt the communication wasn’t clear / too late / or he realised Gayle had run out of his zone and back into Godfrey’s. Zimmermann appears not to shout in either case, though Godfrey clearly realises what is happening, but Gayle now clearly has the jump on him and scores. ...

 

 

Is this a problem with zonal marking Parma? Christoph is clearly worried about the WBA player coming in from his right, should Ben be looking to protect his left side of CB more rather than covering players on the RHS? Could Jamal have taken a better position? 

Communication is the secret to good CB partnerships, & I think Zimm/Timm had got an excellent understanding on when to cover for each other, but obviously injury & illness has interrupted that.

We do have a tendency to need a while to sort our defence out at the beginning of games; WBA were pretty good though & Gayle is an excellent poacher at this level, so keeping the score down to 1 was a good effort.

We need to be totally on-song for our game to work, touches have to quick & accurate, but we've been disrupted by injury lately. Personally I think we won't really  on it until about mid February; if we can hang on in to within 5 or 6 points of the top till then I reckon automatics are still likely.

 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

 No Ron, nothing to do with zonal marking in my view. Defending always incorporated elements of marking players and marking space; what were sweepers doing other than zonal marking? Or Beckanbauer as a libero?

In this particular case I think Zimmermann gets sucked in a bit and doesn’t really engage meaningfully in the action. When Godfrey hands him on to Zimmermann it isn’t clear that the Communication is robust, Zimmerman also then appears to not communicate at all as Gayle runs out of his zone (having only entered it briefly). 

I would certainly say that the danger space was clear, though the initial shape was a little far over and Gayle sits on Lewis, drifts away from the ball, passes through Godfrey’s space and into Zimmermann’s, then quickly out again, back into Godfrey’s area and drives at the near post. Very good movement. Testing for any partnership. 

Zonal marking vs man marking is in any case now a pointless argument. Teams play one up and often -  vid Liverpool and Man City - not even that. Who do you man mark? Players exchange spaces so some form of ‘zonal’ marking is inevitable. 

Defending is all about who you track, pass on, where you go and where you don’t. Old-school Championship defenders just don’t have that many Iwan Roberts’ to stand on their toes to mark anymore.  The game is won dominating possession in central midfield and thus this area is flooded with at least 1 extra player compared to years ago. The phrase ‘front three’ is misleading if you watch the runs, where they start and where they end. They are invariably low-to-high, outside-to-inside and nearly all focusing on the three-quarter spaces between the lines. 

Thus communication passing players, tracking runners and shutting spaces (the areas through which the opposition wants to play dangerous passes) become key. You cannot simply runaround after Firmino when he drops into the space between his own left-sided 3/4 player and his full back to link. 

One of the reasons to dominate possesssion is to avoid endlessly doing the above! So next time you moan about a circulatory passage of play that doesn’t result in a penetrating pass opportunity and switches out via the centre backs again, think about whether you’d prefer them to rush possession, hits the channels and have to face repeated defensive decision-making instead.

Parma

 

 

 

 

 

[splendidrush 700]

My brain hurts.....

[ron obvious 1,512]

 

So Parma, should Zimbo have been the one tracking Gayle? Having seen the replay I don't think so: 1) the LCB position is Ben's 2) Ben is pretty quick, much quicker than Christoph off the mark, so he would have been a better bet to stick to Gayle.

Christoph, as the far more experienced player should probably have warned Ben as to Gayle's movement. But these things happen in tenths of a second, & Dwight's ability to exploit those tiny margins is what makes him such a good striker. The cross in was pretty bloody excellent as well.

We go again ...