Ricardo's report v Bolton

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Thanks Ricardo. I do trust your reports if not always agreeing with MOTM. But I didn't see the game so take your word for it.

I do think part of our improvement this season comes from the defence. The ability of the two young full backs to support the attack and still be able to defend. The extra security has allowed the CB's, particularly Klose, to move into midfield more and our midfield players push on and support the lone striker. Hence we are scoring more. The fact that we also do concede is something we all would like to see eradicated but to be fair, you can't have it both ways.

Surely no-one wants to see a return to last season's style just to try and stop the opposition. Hanley is an able deputy and I see no reason that he couldn't come on when the opposition brings on a great lump up front.

For us to have Klose and Leitner missing at the same time is tough at this level. Taking out arguably your two best players gives hope to the opposition as well.

But while the results are still coming, however they are attained, means everything and the confidence the players must have is part of the reason we are top right now.

[canarydan23 4,060]

14 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

Although if he scores and it's a bad game, what can we expect when he's playing well?

I think it's great he can score after a bad game, not knocking the chap at all, he's a total legend. I just happen to think the goal aside, he was pretty awful on Saturday. And I also felt that if you took Vrancic's goal away and his key pass, he'd have had a solid 5/10 match.

As it was, two players who I felt were poor actually won us the game. Funny old game.

You'd be surprised about the Celtic thing, by the way. I'm of Irish, Catholic stock, so it was put on me from a young age. Years back before I was lumbered with children, you'd get a sizeable crowd at the Temple Bar for any televised Celtic game, several of whom would answer "Norwich" if asked who they supported.

[Ian 1,129]

Well yes, Canarydan, if you take out all the good things a player does like, I don't know, scoring a goal and providing an assist, then it's likely you would think they have a poor game...

[SwindonCanary 455]

Do you think other teams will look at how easy it was for Bolton to get back into the game ?  There was a change of tactics and it worked very well. 

[canarydan23 4,060]

30 minutes ago, Ian said:

Well yes, Canarydan, if you take out all the good things a player does like, I don't know, scoring a goal and providing an assist, then it's likely you would think they have a poor game...

Apologies, I always thought judging a player's performance on 90 minutes of football was de rigueur. Apparently not.

Vrancic justified his starting position with his crucial role in two of our three goals. I just don't think he played all that well beyond those two instances (and his decent first half effort that was saved). I'm not sure, but it looked like it was his failure to track Ameobi that allowed their first goal, but shhhhhh, he scored so don't mention anything else.

He was much better overall against Rotherham in my opinion. Apparently it's an opinion that twists some people's knickers. Hey ho. 

[Ian 1,129]

I don't disagree, but you're clearly not judging somebody on 90 minutes of play if you say "90 minutes take away the really important things they did that helped win us the match, and that good shot that forced a saved." By that token, any player is going to struggle to be seen as having a decent game unless they have a 9 or 10 out of 10 performance.

No twisted-knickers here, your comment actually raise a chuckle in the office. However, I always thought it was de rigeur to actually judge a player's performance in a match by, well, their overall performance in a match, not disregarding the things they did well. Of course there were things he might have done better on Saturday, along with everybody else, but it seems he gets held up to higher standards than other players in the squad.

It does seem to be a bit of a common theme regarding Vrancic with some of our fanbase; one of the knowledgeable chaps who sit behind me took a dislike to Mario from his very first performance. On Saturday, the same gent spent the first 20 minutes slagging him off (cue goal), the next 20 minutes saying "you can still **** this up Vrancic, even if you have scored" (cue assist), and then moved onto different targets (Cantwell and Pukki). I have my suspicions that it's probably due to the fact Mario has that slightly languid style, and doesn't seem to be "running around a lot", which never seems to be too popular at the Carra.

[lake district canary 4,531]

1 hour ago, canarydan23 said:

Apologies, I always thought judging a player's performance on 90 minutes of football was de rigueur. Apparently not.

Vrancic justified his starting position with his crucial role in two of our three goals. I just don't think he played all that well beyond those two instances (and his decent first half effort that was saved). I'm not sure, but it looked like it was his failure to track Ameobi that allowed their first goal, but shhhhhh, he scored so don't mention anything else.

He was much better overall against Rotherham in my opinion. Apparently it's an opinion that twists some people's knickers. Hey ho. 

It was less to do with Vrancic than with Lewis imo, who was ball watching a bit, unaware of the danger coming in from his left.  But most goals come from a mistake somewhere along the line, so no big deal and whoever's fault it was, can do nothing but try and be better next time.

[canarydan23 4,060]

I've got no agenda against Vrancic whatsoever, I've never been one of those fans who delights in the failure of people playing for the team I support, purely because I called them out as cr@p and don't want to be proven wrong. There's nothing I enjoy more than being proven wrong when I'm negative about NCFC. Literally 30 seconds before our winner I hit send on the following message to a WhatsApp group...

"Farke's gotta take responsibility for that. If I was Parkinson, I'd have spaffed my pants when I saw Emi and Stiepermann being taken off. No idea how Pukki is still on the pitch. F***ing dense."

So I'm no stranger to having egg on my face.

But I'll tell you what's on a par with those annoying fans who constantly have an axe to grind with one or two players and who seem to be actually p*ssed off when those players actually have a good game. It's fans who get all p*ssy when players they like get a little bit of criticism. They're annoying too.

I think Vrancic in the main has been great this season, unrecognisable from the player who last season was pretty poor for the majority of time he spent on the pitch. I just personally don't think he had a good game on Saturday, his goal and assist notwithstanding. And to compound the funny old game theme, I think the scorer of the winner was pretty poor most of the match too.

As for the fault for the goal, having now rewatched it a few times, I see your point about Lewis ballwatching LDC, but at the end of the day, the majority of his attention needs to be on the action. Vrancic went to block the cross and then almost literally stopped. He should have stayed on his toes and gotten close to Ameobi or if he was blowing out of his backside, bellowed a call to Lewis to get him to get closer to him as he was essentially marking no one at the time. For me, the bulk of the responsibility is on Vrancic there.

[ricardo 7,395]

There's always a scapegoat😀

[Woodman 92]

Vrancic had an OK game - on the plus side there was the goal and, given he's playing in the Leitner role, he did pretty well. Perhaps he should have been replaced by Trybull for the last 10 mins - he did look tired at the end.

We wobbled a bit with the physical bombardment of Bolton having 3 tall strikers on the pitch for the last 10 minutes.  If Klose and Hanley were available, I'm sure we would have dealt with it a bit better.  Zimmermann seemed to panic a little when in possession without the calming influence of Klose beside him.

However, a win is a win, and our good luck is continuing.  To paraphrase Gary Player; "the harder I work (practice), the luckier I get."

 

 

[Ian 1,129]

Canarydan, I fully respect your opinion that you don't think Vrancic had a good game, and that you're not one of these players who has an axe to grind. I don't think anyone's getting p***y either.

However, apart from a couple of loose passes I can't really remember Mario doing too much wrong? From my recollection he passed and moved the ball well, and put in a pretty good shift defensively. I would personally rate his performance as a decent 7.5 out of 10, as I believe he was one of our better players on the day given his overall contribution.

You obviously think he was better against Rotherham, and you could very well be right, but at the end of the day he was a big part of yet another home win against Bolton. To say things like "apart from the goal and assists, and that shot he wasn't very good" just seems a little bit silly in my opinion.

[westcoastcanary 173]

11 hours ago, Mason 47 said:

I might be in the minority with this but Im reluctant to see Hanley back in. He's a great defender at this level but his absence coincided with a continuing upturn and I think it isn't by accident. He isnt as comfortable on the ball as Timm + Zim which means he tends to clear long under pressure, which neither Rhodes nor Pukki is suited to and invites a lot more pressure on our defence. 

Luckily one of the best things about Norwich City right now is that I absolutely cant wait, and absolutely expect, to be proven wrong.

I agree with this, not just because Zimmerman is more comfortable on the ball, and more accurate with his longer balls than Hanley, but because, as I put it some time ago on another thread, when it comes to defending the penalty area/six yard box in open play, Zim's long legs are generally more valuable than Hanley's head. Yes, Hanley would have been useful as a replacement for Godfrey late on against Bolton, but I really don't think having him starting in place of Zimmerman would improve us. 

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

3 hours ago, SwindonCanary said:

Do you think other teams will look at how easy it was for Bolton to get back into the game ?  There was a change of tactics and it worked very well. 

I didn't see the game Saturday so I'd be interested to hear more about Bolton's change of tactics ?  Are we talking about high balls into the box or something different ?

[ron obvious 1,502]

21 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

I didn't see the game Saturday so I'd be interested to hear more about Bolton's change of tactics ?  Are we talking about high balls into the box or something different ?

Basically yes. It also looked as if they might have been targetting Ben/Jamal, as the high balls were going in that side.

 

[westcoastcanary 173]

On 08/12/2018 at 12:23, canarydan23 said:

Funny how you see things, I actually thought Vrancic was pretty poor today. Lost possession a good few times and failed to really impose himself on the midfield. He scored and played the key pass that led to goal two (don't know about number three, it's all a bit of a blur and I haven't seen the replays yet) but I think his all-round performance was better last week. Definitely straight back to the bench when Leitner is fully-fit (though I don't think there is a midfielder outside the Prem, and many in it, who could keep him out of a side at the moment).

I also think Pukki had his worse game for us in months, certainly his worst game since he started playing striker. Reminded me of his Celtic days.

Buendia was head and shoulders above everyone for me, MoM by a country mile and then some. What a player we have there.

I'm genuinely mystified as to how anyone can, in all seriousness, say that Vrancic was "pretty poor" on Saturday. I've yet to come across any set of player ratings for the match which would support such an assessment. On the contrary, every single one puts Vrancic among the best three or four performers on the day, and certainly not "head and shoulders" below Buendia.

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

Indeed.

You could almost say it's "funny how you see things".

[It's Character Forming 1,160]

2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Basically yes. It also looked as if they might have been targetting Ben/Jamal, as the high balls were going in that side.

 

Makes sense, Jamal still has some weaknesses but I suspect he’ll learn quickly how to deal with this and it’s asking a lot for Godfrey to step up , with Klose or Hanley we’d be much less vulnerable but it is still an area we need to work on in training I’d say.

[daly 501]

  The teams who have watched NCFC last few games at CR realise that you do not have to have any skill  to get a result, just pump high balls into the penalty area and we get into a real panic. Both fullbacks who I think are fantastic going forward but  struggle with defending, especially Lewis

This could be our downfall and needs to be addressed as Millwall and Bolton are hardly promotion material yet we were really fortunate to pick up 6 points when it could easily been nil pois

[Daz Sparks 1,154]

7 hours ago, Ian said:

Well yes, Canarydan, if you take out all the good things a player does like, I don't know, scoring a goal and providing an assist, then it's likely you would think they have a poor game...

 

6 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Apologies, I always thought judging a player's performance on 90 minutes of football was de rigueur. Apparently not.

Vrancic justified his starting position with his crucial role in two of our three goals. I just don't think he played all that well beyond those two instances (and his decent first half effort that was saved). I'm not sure, but it looked like it was his failure to track Ameobi that allowed their first goal, but shhhhhh, he scored so don't mention anything else.

He was much better overall against Rotherham in my opinion. Apparently it's an opinion that twists some people's knickers. Hey ho. 

Vrancic was most certainly not my MOM, granted, he scored and set up Steiperman, but for anyone that's interested, the following highlights are somewhat telling. (Vrancic only appears twice). 

For the record, I really rate Vrancic, and can see what he brings to the party, but Saturday Todd Cantwell was my MOM.

 

[vos 155]

Vrancic is a "luxury player" who can produce the odd defence splitting pass and his goal on Saturday was very well taken. He lacks mobility and is a bit one paced and when the going gets tough, for me in a defensive role, he is a bit lightweight. In these situations he does not provide enough support for his full back. Bolton's direct play towards the end gave us problems and I thought the main shortcoming was that  their attacks were not closed down quick enough because both Vrancic and Tettey had run out of steam. I would agree that our overall improvement this season is mainly due to the skill and pace of our young players. They are quickly on to the opponents and it is noticeable that they win the bulk of the 50/50 balls. They are always ready to drive forward and they are clearly giving the opposition all sorts of problems. Godfrey played well. I am beginning to think that the star man in our set up is the Academy Coach - whose name I do not know. But what do I know about football. I wrote off DF 12 months ago !!!!

[westcoastcanary 173]

41 minutes ago, Daz Sparks said:

Vrancic was most certainly not my MOM, granted, he scored and set up Steiperman, but for anyone that's interested, the following highlights are somewhat telling. (Vrancic only appears twice). 

The media's idea of "highlights" is ludicrously tunnel-visioned, nothing counting as a highlight apart from goals, near misses, and the few seconds of play leading up to them. The fact that Vrancic appears only twice in those highlights tells us nothing about his performance overall. To make the point, how many times does Buendia appear in them making any sort of meaningful contribution? 

[westcoastcanary 173]

14 minutes ago, vos said:

Vrancic is a "luxury player" who can produce the odd defence splitting pass and his goal on Saturday was very well taken. He lacks mobility and is a bit one paced and when the going gets tough, for me in a defensive role, he is a bit lightweight. In these situations he does not provide enough support for his full back. Bolton's direct play towards the end gave us problems and I thought the main shortcoming was that  their attacks were not closed down quick enough because both Vrancic and Tettey had run out of steam. I would agree that our overall improvement this season is mainly due to the skill and pace of our young players. They are quickly on to the opponents and it is noticeable that they win the bulk of the 50/50 balls. They are always ready to drive forward and they are clearly giving the opposition all sorts of problems. Godfrey played well. I am beginning to think that the star man in our set up is the Academy Coach - whose name I do not know. But what do I know about football. I wrote off DF 12 months ago !!!!

To describe Vrancic's performance on Saturday as that of a "luxury player" is such a travesty of the truth I'm, well, speechless.

[Daz Sparks 1,154]

22 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

The media's idea of "highlights" is ludicrously tunnel-visioned, nothing counting as a highlight apart from goals, near misses, and the few seconds of play leading up to them. The fact that Vrancic appears only twice in those highlights tells us nothing about his performance overall. To make the point, how many times does Buendia appear in them making any sort of meaningful contribution? 

You make a decent point about Buendia, but I stand by my assertion that Vrancic was far from MOM, his overall performance did not match last weeks, he wasn't passing as well and took the ball back many times. But as others have stated, it's merely individual opinion.

[westcoastcanary 173]

48 minutes ago, Daz Sparks said:

You make a decent point about Buendia, but I stand by my assertion that Vrancic was far from MOM, his overall performance did not match last weeks, he wasn't passing as well and took the ball back many times. But as others have stated, it's merely individual opinion.

Well Vrancic wasn't my Saturday MOM either Daz, it was Stiepermann. Nor would I disagree that Vrancic was a bit below his Rotherham level. But that doesn't mean that "pretty poor" is an accurate summary. I've been impressed by the way Vrancic, having been asked to deputise for Leitner in the run of games since Mo was injured, has adapted accordingly, in particular dropping back between the two split CBs to take possession much deeper than is normal for him. He isn't Leitner; I'd guess his average pass length in longer than Leitner's, and his passing success consequently more dependent on the intended recipient reading it, which makes it inevitable that he gives the ball away more frequently (compensated for by his ability to play a better penetrative through ball); he is less skilled at working triangles up the touchline, and less defensively aggressive. Even so, his style appearing languid against Leitner's busyness shouldn't be allowed to disguise what he actually contributes when given the Leitner role.