Middle East, as predicted going to kick off next world war!

[Indy 3,352]

For me, I''d call a meeting with all nations, ask them to pull out of the Middle East, close all borders and let them fight it out!

I''m sick of the world regressing backwards, Russia now being looked at as a potential enemy again, why do we allow ourselves as so called civilised race such utterly futile fighting.

Let''s not get involved and let them sort it out without our intervention, ultimately ISIS are slowly getting other nations fighting each other with pretty serious consequences to us all.

It''s got the potential to blow out of all control with so many nations involved and not agreement or control.

This is so sad, so sad.

[morty 0]

Lets not over react though, just because a plane has been shot down.America shot down one of our Tornadoes during the Gulf war (amongst several other friendly fire incidents) and we managed to smooth that over.

[ricardo 7,447]

[quote user="morty"]Lets not over react though, just because a plane has been shot down.America shot down one of our Tornadoes during the Gulf war (amongst several other friendly fire incidents) and we managed to smooth that over.[/quote]Russian plane shot down by Turkey, both crew eject safely.This is just what ISIS are hoping for. They see this as the beginning of the end times.

[Indy 3,352]

Not over reacting Morty, for the past 30 years boundaries and barriers were removed throughout Europe, it''s been great trading with Russia, going to Baku with BP.

Just can''t see the next Turkey / Russia altercation ending without more shots fired now Turkey have taken direct action.

The difference to us and the Americans we were on the same side, Turkey will not back Assad in any way so they are not on the same side.

Just don''t want to see an escalation, it''s so bloody sad!

[morty 0]

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="morty"]Lets not over react though, just because a plane has been shot down.America shot down one of our Tornadoes during the Gulf war (amongst several other friendly fire incidents) and we managed to smooth that over.[/quote]Russian plane shot down by Turkey, both crew eject safely.This is just what ISIS are hoping for. They see this as the beginning of the end times.[/quote]This will be negotiated out, it doesn''t worry me.Turkey have always been pretty split on these issues, to be honest. When the Northern no fly zone was in place to protect the Kurds, NATO would patrol the skies flying protection ( from Turkish airbases) , then when we took a day off, each week, Turkey would be bombing the Kurds.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Indy"]Not over reacting Morty, for the past 30 years boundaries and barriers were removed throughout Europe, it''s been great trading with Russia, going to Baku with BP.

Just can''t see the next Turkey / Russia altercation ending without more shots fired now Turkey have taken direct action.

The difference to us and the Americans we were on the same side, Turkey will not back Assad in any way so they are not on the same side.

Just don''t want to see an escalation, it''s so bloody sad![/quote]Well, firstly, we can''t cut the middle east off, we need their oil.And secondly, if it really comes down to it, Turkey can go frig themselves. We have only really tolerated them as part of NATO because of their handy geographical location to the middle east. Turkey needs to get with the plan.

[Indy 3,352]

Fair point on the oil, but not as confident as you about Russian reaction, Russia has already been cut adrift by EU over Ukraine, so it will be interesting to see how this all pans out!

I bet the French jets straying into Turkeys airspace won''t be shot down! Yet they are fighting the same enemy as Russia!

Is this stupid ideology of a few weak minded fools really worth all this tension, killing and hatred?

[morty 0]

[quote user="Indy"]Fair point on the oil, but not as confident as you about Russian reaction, Russia has already been cut adrift by EU over Ukraine, so it will be interesting to see how this all pans out!

I bet the French jets straying into Turkeys airspace won''t be shot down! Yet they are fighting the same enemy as Russia!

Is this stupid ideology of a few weak minded fools really worth all this tension, killing and hatred?[/quote]The Turks are notoriously unpredictable, they have a large Muslim population that makes any action against Muslims, whether or not sanctioned by NATO, very difficult for them.The sooner we have a NATO resolution the better, and Turkey can choose what it wants to do. And hopefully remember the massive amounts of NATO funding that helped bolster its military.

[Prince of Darkness 0]

And the connection to Norwich City and football generally?

[wcorkcanary 4,355]

''''And the connection to Norwich City and football generally? '''' .......... Princey

Well, if this Middle east situation really does go ''''T1ts up'''', it could have quite a relevance to Football and NCFC, such as security becoming more important than sport, therefore leading to either playing with no crowd or suspension of such frivolities as professional football altogether. Lets not forget that within the Football league alone there are hundreds if not thousands of able bodied men that may be needed for more serious duties.

[Thirsty Lizard 3,187]

"For me, I''d call a meeting with all nations, ask them to pull out of the Middle East, close all borders and let them fight it out."

Probably a good job for us and the whole of Europe that the Americans didn''t adopt the same policy in WW11 eh Indy?

(And yes I know the Americans took a while to make up their mind and didn''t enter the war until they were attacked at Pearl Harbour. Nonetheless, without their help it might have all turned out very different in the end).

[kick it off 1,962]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="Indy"]Fair point on the oil, but not as confident as you about Russian reaction, Russia has already been cut adrift by EU over Ukraine, so it will be interesting to see how this all pans out!

I bet the French jets straying into Turkeys airspace won''t be shot down! Yet they are fighting the same enemy as Russia!

Is this stupid ideology of a few weak minded fools really worth all this tension, killing and hatred?[/quote]The Turks are notoriously unpredictable, they have a large Muslim population that makes any action against Muslims, whether or not sanctioned by NATO, very difficult for them.The sooner we have a NATO resolution the better, and Turkey can choose what it wants to do. And hopefully remember the massive amounts of NATO funding that helped bolster its military.[/quote]

Having lived in Turkey, I can say categorically that I agree they do find any military intervention against Muslim nations unpalatable. However, the Turks as a whole are incredibly moderate and are technically a secular country by constitution, although Erdogan is very conservative and has been pushing policies that are authoritarian and not progressive. Turks are absolutely opposed to ISIS, and will have no objection going to war with them.

This isn''t a simple issue about getting on everyone else''s page, Assad has been causing Turkey all sorts of problems by supporting the PKK to commit terrorist activities on Turkish soil (I''m not passing comment on the legitimacy of the Kurds to fight for their perceived homeland, but the PKK has been consistently murdering innocent Turks for decades). 

Turkey shares a huge geographical border with Syria, and Assad has been a longstanding problem, so don''t expect them to jump to any demands to fight ISIS first, and Assad later, they want rid of both evils immediately. Given the record of intervention from allied nations in Iraq, and Afghanistan, only then to walk away once the fighting is done and leave the countries to fend for themselves, and subsequently spawn greater evils than were defeated; with no plan for succession from Assad after defeating ISIS on the table, you can hardly blame the Turks for wanting this solved once and for all, rather than trusting that NATO has learned from it''s mistakes and won''t just defeat ISIS and then walk away from the Assad issue.

NATO can say what they like but the reality is that without being able to use Turkish bases, NATO''s ability to intervene in the region is pretty hamstrung.

What everybody also seems to be failing to consider is the military might of Turkey. OK, so they''re not as well armed as USA or Russia, but they have 2 years mandatory national service for all males, so every single able bodied man over the age of 21, in the nation has military training. To give you some context, that''s over 25 million people who are fully trained. They are also known to have caches of weapons/supplies stored throughout the country.

It is widely believed in Turkey (no idea if true or not, but I suspect it probably is) that Turkey could raise and fully equip an army of between four and ten million in a matter of months. It is law that any male under the age of 46 can be called back to the army without notice if the nation issues a declaration of war. This situation with Russia is no joke, this could get really ugly, really quickly. Russia also has 12 months conscription which leaves them with around 40 million who have military training - no idea whether they have a legal obligation to return to service if called by the state written in law though.

To give some context on the figures, and Turkey''s capabilities, the USA has a standing army of 1.4million. Russia has 760,000....In terms of tanks and other land based systems, Turkey have about 5000 tanks. Russia has 15000. USA 9000. Aircraft they have 1000, Russia 3000, USA 13000.

Like I said, don''t mistake this as a minor issue. The Assad issue will not go away, and Turkey will never support someone who has spent decades supporting terrorists to murder Turks. What is clear, is a unified strategy has to happen quickly but how you get Turkey and Russia on the same page here is anyone''s guess.

[Indy 3,352]

Different time different situation!

We are allowing ourselves to slip into a potential war for no other reason than curb terror! The more we allow each nation to take its own actions the worse it gets!

To pull out now and hold a council with all nations to agree a way forward would in my book be best practice right now!

[Thirsty Lizard 3,187]

"Different time, different situation!"

I see what you mean Indy! In WW11 it was us who needed the help.

Now it''s some other poor b*****s who need the help it''s time to close the borders and have nothing to do with it.

[lowlyfendweller 0]

I come on here for a bit of escapsim, and to pretend that NCFC is one of the most important things in the world. Thread titles about World Wars a surely for other sites that revel in that sort of thing. I prefer it when these two aspects of life don''t meet. But I did get some new info about the Turkish army.... Int it big!

[morty 0]

That was a really interesting read kick it off. Thanks.

Turkey is very much the crux of a lot of the issues here, ist importance shouldn''t be underestimated, but what I said above about the Kurds illustrates how complex a lot of the issues are.

[kick it off 1,962]

[quote user="kick it off"][quote user="morty"][quote user="Indy"]Fair point on the oil, but not as confident as you about Russian reaction, Russia has already been cut adrift by EU over Ukraine, so it will be interesting to see how this all pans out!

I bet the French jets straying into Turkeys airspace won''t be shot down! Yet they are fighting the same enemy as Russia!

Is this stupid ideology of a few weak minded fools really worth all this tension, killing and hatred?[/quote]The Turks are notoriously unpredictable, they have a large Muslim population that makes any action against Muslims, whether or not sanctioned by NATO, very difficult for them.The sooner we have a NATO resolution the better, and Turkey can choose what it wants to do. And hopefully remember the massive amounts of NATO funding that helped bolster its military.[/quote]

Having lived in Turkey, I can say categorically that I agree they do find any military intervention against Muslim nations unpalatable. However, the Turks as a whole are incredibly moderate and are technically a secular country by constitution, although Erdogan is very conservative and has been pushing policies that are authoritarian and not progressive. Turks are absolutely opposed to ISIS, and will have no objection going to war with them.

[/quote]

Just to clarify, when I say Turks are opposed to ISIS, I mean the general public (PEW research data has ISIS approval at 8% amongst the general population of Turks in Turkey), , not the government, who I suspect are more anti-Kurd than anti-ISIS. There''s no doubt that if Turkey stopped protecting the ISIS stronghold in Jarablus (Erdogan declared PKK and YPG troops going to fight ISIS there would be a "red-line" for him and he would bring the full military might of the Turkish army in against Kurdish troops if they were fighting right on the Turkish border) then the supply lines to Raqqa would have been cut and ISIS would be choked. 

Turkish media is very strictly controlled and censored by Ankara (Youtube was banned for several years because of two videos on the site that criticised Ataturk and referred to the Armenian genocide, Twitter is frequently taken offline etc), and the Kurdish issue is one which has been subject of decades of propaganda so you do find a lot of racism and xenophobia towards Kurds, but even despite that, there has been a real change in attitude amongst the younger generation of Turks, and the Kurdish party stopped Erdogan winning a majority in May, which is what a lot of Erdogan''s conservative, anti-kurdish agenda is tied up in.

Erdogan needs to get his head out of his arse and stop fighting the Kurds, and start fighting ISIS as he is currently the one who is allowing ISIS to exist due to his opposition to the Kurds, but by the same token, I don''t see that happening without a Turkish-sympathetic, Kurd-sceptic, Syrian leader being lined up to take Assad''s mantle.

[Indy 3,352]

[quote user="Thirsty Lizard"]"Different time, different situation!"

I see what you mean Indy! In WW11 it was us who needed the help.

Now it''s some other poor b*****s who need the help it''s time to close the borders and have nothing to do with it.[/quote]

What planet are you on, can I join you?

Can you tell me who are we supposed to be helping? The displaced refugees? How should we help them? Are we not already?

My point is that the Kurds, Turks, Assad followers, rebels, who are we fighting? At the moment it looks like Turkey and Russia might be next!

It''s all good you having some old fashioned view on history, I''m all for pulling out and having a united front and a way forward. KIck it off has posted some very interesting info. Just goes to show how complex things are and it''s not Allies v Axis powers aka WWII.

[Horse Renoir 1]

I wish I could get off this planet somehow

What have any of us or any average civilian around the world done to cause any of these issues? Nothing. It''s all the scumbags in elite positions of power running countries that have caused these issues over a number of decades, mostly to line their own pockets with oil money as well.

Hypothetically, these issues continue to worsen and eventually there''s a world war...Who get''s vaporized, shot in a firing line for refusing to fight or shot to death by some guy who just happened to be born in a different part of the world?...Us! and who get''s to hide in impenetrable bunkers? Yeah the people who actually caused the issues in the first place, the worlds hereditary ruling class.

We should''ve never gone anywhere near that part of the world. Religion is the single greatest evil humanity has ever invented and that place is a regressive hotbed of it. You can''t expect devout religious people to think rationally or have any respect for life because they believe dead people just float up to some sort of paradise in the clouds. That makes them extremely dangerous.

It''s an unfixable mess now and it will come to a head one day. But like I said sadly we''ll all pay the price whether it goes nuclear or not

[ricardo 7,447]

I wouldn''t get too excited about this. The downing of one Russian plane in controversial circumstances is not going to result in World War 3. I expect that Putin will have to do a bit of face saving but It won''t amount to much. Targeting ISIS brings Russia back into the main game of Global influence. They won''t jeopardise that over one incident.

[andgreen 0]

Ummmmmm wrong messageboard fool!!!

[Indy 3,352]

[quote user="ricardo"]I wouldn''t get too excited about this. The downing of one Russian plane in controversial circumstances is not going to result in World War 3. I expect that Putin will have to do a bit of face saving but It won''t amount to much. Targeting ISIS brings Russia back into the main game of Global influence. They won''t jeopardise that over one incident.[/quote]

That reminds me of Chamberlain when he gave up Czechoslovakia, Peace For Our Time...Ricardo 😉

[ricardo 7,447]

[quote user="Indy"][quote user="ricardo"]I wouldn''t get too excited about this. The downing of one Russian plane in controversial circumstances is not going to result in World War 3. I expect that Putin will have to do a bit of face saving but It won''t amount to much. Targeting ISIS brings Russia back into the main game of Global influence. They won''t jeopardise that over one incident.[/quote]

That reminds me of Chamberlain when he gave up Czechoslovakia, Peace For Our Time...Ricardo 😉[/quote]

Excuse me if I fail to see the parallel. This incident isn''t on a par with Hitler invading Poland or the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand. There will be some sort of quid pro quo to save face by Putin but this certainly isn''t the opening overs of World War 3.

[lowlyfendweller 0]

I dunno Ricardo there is often an apocalyptic vibe on this message board.

[Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd 0]

Wrong forum ,,,yes , but while on the matter , the Russian plane was given repeated warnings apparently before it was shot down ,,, the crew ejected safely ,, but were shot and killed by anti -Assad forces it''s now being reported .

So I think the argument swings back to Russia ,, who should have been bombing Isis ,, but were bombing Assads opponents ,, getting their come up pence as it were ?

[ricardo 7,447]

[quote user="lowlyfendweller"]I dunno Ricardo there is often an apocalyptic vibe on this message board.[/quote]Those of us old enough to remember 1956 know that there is always a chance of apocalyptic happenings at CR?

[ricardo 7,447]

[quote user="Barclay seats 48 49 the 3rd"]Wrong forum ,,,yes , but while on the matter , the Russian plane was given repeated warnings apparently before it was shot down ,,, the crew ejected safely ,, but were shot and killed by anti -Assad forces it''s now being reported .

So I think the argument swings back to Russia ,, who should have been bombing Isis ,, but were bombing Assads opponents ,, getting their come up pence as it were ?[/quote]However those anti Assad rebels appear to be Turkmen forces who are actively supported by Turkey, so we have a bit of a double game going on here. Putin made it clear that he was targeting all anti Assad groups not just ISIS. Turkey seem to have got their retaliation in first. Film of Turkmen rebels shooting Russian pilots will not go down well on Russian TV. There will be a price to pay.

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="Prince of Darkness "]And the connection to Norwich City and football generally?[/quote]

Lafferty has played there so must have kids there.

[Herman 9,867]

Good. It''s about time the Russians got a punch in the hooter.

A question for Ricardo et Al. Was the Cuban missile crisis as worrying as it sounds, or has it been built up over the decades?

[PurpleCanary 5,607]

[quote user="Herman "]Good. It''s about time the Russians got a punch in the hooter.

A question for Ricardo et Al. Was the Cuban missile crisis as worrying as it sounds, or has it been built up over the decades?[/quote]Ricardo will have his own answer. As for mine, yes, it was a touch worrying at the time! But, and I think this is highly significant, it was defused because of the way they the two leaders on either side behaved.Kennedy was publicly at least a believing Catholic and opponent of Communism, Kruschchev (also publicly) ia committed atheist Marxist. But in the confrontation, despite enormous pressures to act out those parts (which would have led to nuclear war) they behaved as rational 20th-century humanists. It is perhaps significant that both had been through world war two, with Kennedy in naval action and Kruschchev helping the defence of Stalingrad. They knew what war really meant.The practical difference with the current war, with humanists on one side and medieval truly-believing religious fanatics on the other, could not be clearer. Or more frightening.A fascinating book that covers the Cuban Missile Crisis, but much more besides, is Jonathan Glover''s Humanity: A moral history of the twentieth century.