Two Days Before The AGM Who Would Have Guessed It ?

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]Unfortunately its about the decisions you make when you are in a position of strength as well as the decisions you make when things are going wrong. We make the latter decisions too late and we don;t make the former types of decisions at all.

When we were up in the premier league we should have been making forward thinking decisions geared towards establishing ourselves at that level and indeed making the club sustainable. Thats what clubs like Watford, Stoke, Bournemouth and indeed Burnley have done. Yes they needed to be bankrolled to get there but once in the prem they have taken full advantage. We never did because we were always preparing for failure/relegation. Even Man City are now run "sustainably" in the sense that they are making a profit after a few years of being heavily subsidised. That club could now operate sustainably for a decent period of time even if their owners left them.

This ownership and this board have always been entirely reactive and usually reactive too late which is a bad combination and sees us where we are today. They have made 2 or 3 genuinely successful decisions in 20 years and one of those was because the owners stepped back and admitted they didn''t know what they were doing so brought in McNally who then made the other one.[/quote]As always your "solution" is for the club to take a massive uncalculated gamble - one I am sure you would never take with your own finances - by spending money (to get to the Premier League and then again to stay there) it has never had and so risk disaster.

[Indy 3,301]

LDC what short memories others have, Chase took us down to this level after 9 seasons of top flight football, Europe and 3rd place in the top flight!

Delia took over from Wattling’s temporary incursion with a debt of around 6 million, selling our best players and in this league!

Where are we now 21 years later, upto this point there will no doubt be more of our gems sold to finance the club, Colney needing millions spent on it and the club restructuring to survive on a shoestring budget. Not sure how much the club has improved in 21 years?

[Jim Smith 2,322]

No my position has always been to take calculated gambles. The penny has alsio never dropped with this board that if its not working in the prem with a manager you change it early enough to still make a difference because staying up in those early years is absolutely paramount and what enables the club to eventually grow. We have always accepted the "fate" of relegation because there is an endemic attitude that we can;t really compete and its what happens to clubs like ours.

But rather than signing players i''m talking primarily here about investing in the structure of the club behind the scenes during times of strength. They have clearly not done that and that has cost us - that to me is the bigger sin than some poor signings but the two are ultimately linked. It has cost us because the scouting and recruitment has not been up to scratch which means we have wasted millions on players we didn;t need or who were not suitable for us. It has cost us because we have not invested properly in the academy and the training ground facilities at times when we could afford to do so and so now have to resort to asking fans to pay for it just months after the owers repaid themselves £1.5m in loans.

Its just such short sighted, poor decision making over a long period of time and it gives me zero faith that the future holds anything but long term mediocrity.

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

So if when we were in the prem the club had said they wouldn’t be buying a new player in January but we’re updating Colney you would have been happy with that ?

[Mello Yello 2,296]

Move the training facilities back to Trowse.....and it don''t cost anything to run up and down Mousehold Heath giving a piggy-back to a team mate......

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]No my position has always been to take calculated gambles. The penny has alsio never dropped with this board that if its not working in the prem with a manager you change it early enough to still make a difference because staying up in those early years is absolutely paramount and what enables the club to eventually grow. We have always accepted the "fate" of relegation because there is an endemic attitude that we can;t really compete and its what happens to clubs like ours.

But rather than signing players i''m talking primarily here about investing in the structure of the club behind the scenes during times of strength. They have clearly not done that and that has cost us - that to me is the bigger sin than some poor signings but the two are ultimately linked. It has cost us because the scouting and recruitment has not been up to scratch which means we have wasted millions on players we didn;t need or who were not suitable for us. It has cost us because we have not invested properly in the academy and the training ground facilities at times when we could afford to do so and so now have to resort to asking fans to pay for it just months after the owers repaid themselves £1.5m in loans.

Its just such short sighted, poor decision making over a long period of time and it gives me zero faith that the future holds anything but long term mediocrity.[/quote]As explained before your "calculated gamble" is nothing of the kind.  What you keep on advocating is an unjustified gamble that you would not take with your own finances.

[Mello Yello 2,296]

I took an unjustified/calculated gamble with my finances/disposable income, by choosing to support NCFC 3 decades ago......Never looked back......

[Baldyboy 0]

LDC, you mention fans have a short memory and bang on about the Prem years, but make absolutely no mention of 2009 when under this ownership we reached the lowest point in 50 years, something that is regularly forgotten it would appear as it gets very little mention but there is a possibility we could be back there soon if this so called project carries on down its current path!

It amazes me that people actually say it would be acceptable to get relegated again rather than an owner who’s not a true supporter! If it happens it will be interesting to see how people will actually feel!

[Jim Smith 2,322]

[quote user="FenwayFrank"]So if when we were in the prem the club had said they wouldn’t be buying a new player in January but we’re updating Colney you would have been happy with that ?[/quote]

Had we spent £7m on the training rgound instead of naismith yes I would have been happy with that and I don;t say that with the benefit of hindsight either. we never needed Naismith and it was a ridicuously bad signing. That said we still made a profit that season.

Had we not signed a CB in January because we were spending money on facilities then it would have been different but then we shouldn''t have left it to January to strengthen the defence we all knew needed strengthening in the summer.

Of course if you have wealthier owners then it takes some of these decisions away because the owners will often fund the infrastructure.

[Jim Smith 2,322]

@Purple

How would it have been a "unjustified gamble" to spend £7m on the training ground rather than Naismith?

How would it have been an unjustified gamble to sack Neil half way through the premier league season and replace him with an experienced manager with some tactical nous?

How would it have been an unjustified gamble to sack Neil last season early enough to actually attempt to reach the playoffs in a season where the teams that finished 4th, 5th and 6th were all rubbish and we had one of the top 3 squads in the division?

How would it have been an unjustified gamble to sack Hughton mid way though his second season when we could all see the writing was on the wall?

Its not that big a gamble to sign young, promising players when in the premier league because unless you are extremely unlucky then they will retain their re-sale value in a worst case scenario. however, we''ve not been able to do so because we did not have the correct people at the club to do so.

Its not an unjustified gamble for a football club such as ours to have a serviceable amount of external debt for a period of time in an effort to maximise prospects of returning to the top flight.

You continue to imply that i expect the clyb to spend millions of quid it doesn''t have. thats not the case at all.

[PurpleCanary 5,562]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]No my position has always been to take calculated gambles. The penny has alsio never dropped with this board that if its not working in the prem with a manager you change it early enough to still make a difference because staying up in those early years is absolutely paramount and what enables the club to eventually grow. We have always accepted the "fate" of relegation because there is an endemic attitude that we can;t really compete and its what happens to clubs like ours.

But rather than signing players i''m talking primarily here about investing in the structure of the club behind the scenes during times of strength. They have clearly not done that and that has cost us - that to me is the bigger sin than some poor signings but the two are ultimately linked. It has cost us because the scouting and recruitment has not been up to scratch which means we have wasted millions on players we didn;t need or who were not suitable for us. It has cost us because we have not invested properly in the academy and the training ground facilities at times when we could afford to do so and so now have to resort to asking fans to pay for it just months after the owers repaid themselves £1.5m in loans.

Its just such short sighted, poor decision making over a long period of time and it gives me zero faith that the future holds anything but long term mediocrity.[/quote]You are flailing around contradicting yourself, based on a fantasy view of our finances. We have not had financial "times of strength" when we could afford to take money away from the here and now playing side and spend it on the future in the shape of the academy and Colney. If staying in the Premier League is "absolutely paramount" that is where all the money has to go.It is simply not true that being in the PL has meant we have had millions sloshing around to spend long-term as well as short. Why do you think the club kicked stadium expansion into the long grass?I looked at this a couple of weeks ago, although I don''t have the figures to hand. But from memory the only times in the PL we have made a profit of - at best - more than a million or two  has been when we got relegated and so didn''t have to pay massive bonuses for staying up.

[Jim Smith 2,322]

In my opinion we could (and probably would) have stayed up in both recent relegation seasons without the need for further significant investment in players that season had the board taken proactive and obvious (to most certainly in the case of Hughton) decisions to replace the manager.

The club have ended up with the worst of all worlds. they''ve not spent any money on long term infrastructure needs when we had it available, they''ve wasted millions on sh*t players with no re-sale value (not to mention the likes of Moxey) and they have failed to compete at all for promotion in two seasons where we have had parachute payments and thus an advantage over many of our rivals. th decision making has been appalling.

Of course again if you have wealthier owners then you can get away with some poor decision making because not every penny has to count as it does with us (you can write off the odd poor signing or the owners themselves might hepp fund the training ground or ground expansion) but we are denied that privilege due to the intransigence of our owners which i''m afraid means our board have less slack to make poor decisions than some others.

[Mello Yello 2,296]

We didn''t have millions sloshing around, but had enough to repay the loans to the Majority shareholders and the Director.......Was it imperative the ''loanees'' were reimbursed when we were so called ''flush''?.....

[nutty nigel 7,539]

The utopia that people seem to expect our owners to give them doesn''t exist. And I doubt they''d really want it to. The strength of professional football in this country is the possibilities and dreams centred around getting to the Premier League. If Norwich had an owner that could secure a PL future for Norwich then at least 40 other clubs whose fans have the same demands would have it too. The reality is half the PL teams have been there six years or less. Six of them have been there three years or less. If they along with their ownership model establish themselves then what''s the future for all the other clubs who dream of getting to the promised land? 

Taking all that into consideration it would be fairer to judge our owners on the reality of what other clubs achieve rather than unrealistic dreams. That reality will show that they have performed well against what their peers have done. Yes a few clubs have done better. But many more have done worse. I read on social media that the club has gone stale. Really? compared to what? The very last thing that this club has been over the last ten years is stale.

[daly 504]

Not just the money this club has wasted on over the hill players and injury prone players but the Main Stand is Div1 the Dug Outs and Dressing Rooms are Conference at best.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

Compared to which clubs?

[City 2nd 191]

lake district canary wrote the following post at 2017-11-29 1:33 PM:

Hoola Han Solo wrote:

If we don’t go up this season, we’ll be back where we were 10 years ago - financially uncompetitive and with a poor quality squad. How on earth is that progress? Too many of you have no ambition and see us as “little old Norwich” - which is exactly how our owners probably see it too.

The owners'' aim all along - imo - was to have a long term policy that re-creates something we had in the 70''s and 80''s which as supporters of a certain age they will remember as something of a marvel. That successful time was built on continuity of personell - all from within the club. Stemmong from John Bond, Ken Brown through to Stringer and Walker. That lasted 22 years and ended with the money running out because of the way money took over football building up to the advent of the PL under Sky.

That wish for continuity was at the heart of trying Peter Grant as mananger - didn''t work, obviously. That wish was at the heart of getting Gunn, Deehan and Crook in - didn''t work, obviously. That wish was even at the heart of getting Hughton in to rebuild the club - a job that proved beyond him. Now we have the complete article - a new regime across the playing/coaching staff - a scheme that is supposed to have continuity built in.

Will it work this time? We will see, but to write it off at this stage and throw toys out of the pram would be just daft. It needs time, it needs patience and it needs support.

Woa woa woa LDC. Being rather selective there aren’t we. In one breath you state supporters have a short memory. You seem to have forgotten the days of Delia’s dream team of Rioch, Hamilton, Roeder et al. Wasn’t the dream team Delia’s and MWJ long term plan? Don’t just look back at the 70/80’s. And you talk of continuity and from within the club - didn’t Bond, Brown and Walker, Deehan, Crook, Grant all serve with other clubs prior to NCFC.

Don’t think supporters are throwing their teddy out of the prom - so many have seen it all before, which you seem to forget, only relating to the good years, and they are few!

[City 2nd 191]

Mello Yello wrote the following post at 2017-11-29 2:13 PM:

Move the training facilities back to Trowse.....and it don''t cost anything to run up and down Mousehold Heath giving a piggy-back to a team mate......

Try and get that one past Health and Safety these days Mello, lol!

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]So City2nd, are you saying that the owners and management are making the same mistakes over and over so that we''ll have another day at Wembley and a repeat of those seasons under Lambert?[/quote]

The crucial error you have made here is that that success was engineered entirely by McNasty and had nothing to do with the Suffolk Socialists. Now that McNasty is long gone we are witnessing once again what the club is capable of when the Socialists are left to their own devices.

[Big Vince 318]

[quote user="lake district canary"]What short memories some of you have.  The club was a basket case when Delia and MJW stepped in. We were relegated, had no money for players, and yet managed to improve - with good football - up to promotion in 2003.  A roller coaster in the PL 2004 - some good football there too, even with our lack of resources, especially towards the end of the season.   So we had a rough four or five years trying to rebuild on no money, but we did it and got back to the PL with three fantastic seasons on the trot - with some brilliant football to boot.  So we struggled with Hughton, but still managed to see some brilliant football - especially during Hughton''s first season with a run of ten games undefeated.  The football in Adam''s and Neil''s promotion season was often excellent. So we''ve had a couple of years in the doldrums, but hey, that''s football.

  [/quote]

Hang on a minute! The club was a basket case when McNasty and Bowkett stepped in. It was on the brink of administration in the autumn of 2009.

[Donkey dangler 0]

Approx. £50 million poured down the drain........and its the fans fault.

Apparently, we the fans demanded NCFC waste money on Naismith and Jarvis.

You couldnt make it up!

When are the board going to take responsibility for the waste of money?

[Donkey dangler 0]

[quote user="Mello Yello"]Move the training facilities back to Trowse.....and it don''t cost anything to run up and down Mousehold Heath giving a piggy-back to a team mate......[/quote]

They were fit in those days.

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]@Purple

How would it have been a "unjustified gamble" to spend £7m on the training ground rather than Naismith?

How would it have been an unjustified gamble to sack Neil half way through the premier league season and replace him with an experienced manager with some tactical nous?

How would it have been an unjustified gamble to sack Neil last season early enough to actually attempt to reach the playoffs in a season where the teams that finished 4th, 5th and 6th were all rubbish and we had one of the top 3 squads in the division?

How would it have been an unjustified gamble to sack Hughton mid way though his second season when we could all see the writing was on the wall?

Its not that big a gamble to sign young, promising players when in the premier league because unless you are extremely unlucky then they will retain their re-sale value in a worst case scenario. however, we''ve not been able to do so because we did not have the correct people at the club to do so.

Its not an unjustified gamble for a football club such as ours to have a serviceable amount of external debt for a period of time in an effort to maximise prospects of returning to the top flight.

You continue to imply that i expect the clyb to spend millions of quid it doesn''t have. thats not the case at all.[/quote]Well said Jim [Y]

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

[quote user="Jim Smith"]In my opinion we could (and probably would) have stayed up in both recent relegation seasons without the need for further significant investment in players that season had the board taken proactive and obvious (to most certainly in the case of Hughton) decisions to replace the manager.

The club have ended up with the worst of all worlds. they''ve not spent any money on long term infrastructure needs when we had it available, they''ve wasted millions on sh*t players with no re-sale value (not to mention the likes of Moxey) and they have failed to compete at all for promotion in two seasons where we have had parachute payments and thus an advantage over many of our rivals. th decision making has been appalling.

Of course again if you have wealthier owners then you can get away with some poor decision making because not every penny has to count as it does with us (you can write off the odd poor signing or the owners themselves might hepp fund the training ground or ground expansion) but we are denied that privilege due to the intransigence of our owners which i''m afraid means our board have less slack to make poor decisions than some others.[/quote]And again, well said Jim [Y]