How it is.

[lake district canary 4,546]

I guess my point, simply put, is stick with a manager you believe in and get rid of players who aren''t up to the task.  Might be painful in the short term, but long term might be just what we need.

[morty 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I guess my point, simply put, is stick with a manager you believe in and get rid of players who aren''t up to the task.  Might be painful in the short term, but long term might be just what we need.

[/quote]Do you think the players believe in him, right now?Is years of mediocrity in the Championship what we need then?

[Chemical Bro 0]

Keeping a manager long term is the way forward ldc, that i agree with.

Hopefully the next manager will be that one.

However when the manager loses the players like in this case it''s good night and god bless.

[lake district canary 4,546]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"]I guess my point, simply put, is stick with a manager you believe in and get rid of players who aren''t up to the task.  Might be painful in the short term, but long term might be just what we need.

[/quote]Do you think the players believe in him, right now? Is years of mediocrity in the Championship what we need then?[/quote]

So if they don''t  believe in him, whose fault would that be?  Is it the players or the manager?  That is the choice the club have to decide. My view - from outside - is that the players are letting the manager down.  When 3-1 up at Newcastle, presumably because the players were playing well for theselves and the manager, was it the players or manager who let in the soft goals  at the end?  And on Saturday was it the manager who failed to deal with the throw in or was it Bassong and Olsson''s fault?   As for years in the championship, that is not something I would dread, far from it. Promotion takes however long it takes.  The years we had in the championship  between 2004 and 2009 were pretty awful largely because we were in huge debt.  That debt will not happen again because we are a healthy club with good finances and with some good youngsters on the books.  If we can''t get promotion thise season using the senior players, we have a good set up for rebuilding from within.

[morty 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"]I guess my point, simply put, is stick with a manager you believe in and get rid of players who aren''t up to the task.  Might be painful in the short term, but long term might be just what we need.

[/quote]Do you think the players believe in him, right now? Is years of mediocrity in the Championship what we need then?[/quote]

So if they don''t  believe in him, whose fault would that be?  Is it the players or the manager?  That is the choice the club have to decide. My view - from outside - is that the players are letting the manager down.  When 3-1 up at Newcastle, presumably because the players were playing well for theselves and the manager, was it the players or manager who let in the soft goals  at the end?  And on Saturday was it the manager who failed to deal with the throw in or was it Bassong and Olsson''s fault?   As for years in the championship, that is not something I would dread, far from it. Promotion takes however long it takes.  The years we had in the championship  between 2004 and 2009 were pretty awful largely because we were in huge debt.  That debt will not happen again because we are a healthy club with good finances and with some good youngsters on the books.  If we can''t get promotion thise season using the senior players, we have a good set up for rebuilding from within.

[/quote]A change has to be made, and we can''t sack the players. It doesn''t matter whose fault it is.You''re living in cloud cuckoo land if you think we can just choose to get promoted when we fancy it.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

[quote user="lake district canary"]The point about sustainablity is that having got ourselves into a good financial position - is that we can keep it like that, if we are sensible.  Swapping managers every time things get difficult does not make sense.  I understand all the points that have been put and I do understand the issues of how things must seem, given the performances and issues this season - but the overall point is one of faith.  I had faith in Hughton largely because I thought that given long enough, he would turn it round and be the manager we can see he is today.  But he ran out of rope in the end and there was an inevitabity in the end that he would get sacked.  But I stll think that if the board had held firm and kept him on, he would have been a good manager for us at this level - it was never going to happen, of course. As for AN, I see a manager who has lost some of his focus, lost a bit of confidence in his players and who is having to deal with some strong willed players who maybe aren''t as focussed as they should be. We are in the championship, not at the bottom of the premier league and if he can get the senior players to perform as they should, all is good, but if not, we can rebuild, using the less pressurised situation that the championship presents. Fans want it all and they want it now - nothing wrong with that in itself, but the reality is that there is more to it than just being at the top of the league.  The issues surrounding success and the long term well being of the club are much deeper.

[/quote]

No we can''t, unless we get back in the premier league in the next 18 months because our current "debt free" breaking even status is all built on that TV money.

If we are not back up by the end of the season after next then in the following season we will lose £30 million worth of income. We will either have to cut our wage bill by 60% or sell two or three players every season for decent money if we are to continue to run the type of wage bill we will probably need to remain competitive at championship level or alternatively we will need to start accumulating debt again. Delia and MWJ are not going to subsidise the wage bill. I don''t see Nephew Tom putting in millions from his photography business. But we will be up against 8 -10 clubs every season in the championship with rich owners who will be able to outpay and outbid us for players.

[lake district canary 4,546]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"]I guess my point, simply put, is stick with a manager you believe in and get rid of players who aren''t up to the task.  Might be painful in the short term, but long term might be just what we need. [/quote]Do you think the players believe in him, right now? Is years of mediocrity in the Championship what we need then?[/quote]

So if they don''t  believe in him, whose fault would that be?  Is it the players or the manager?  That is the choice the club have to decide. My view - from outside - is that the players are letting the manager down.  When 3-1 up at Newcastle, presumably because the players were playing well for theselves and the manager, was it the players or manager who let in the soft goals  at the end?  And on Saturday was it the manager who failed to deal with the throw in or was it Bassong and Olsson''s fault?   As for years in the championship, that is not something I would dread, far from it. Promotion takes however long it takes.  The years we had in the championship  between 2004 and 2009 were pretty awful largely because we were in huge debt.  That debt will not happen again because we are a healthy club with good finances and with some good youngsters on the books.  If we can''t get promotion thise season using the senior players, we have a good set up for rebuilding from within.

[/quote]A change has to be made, and we can''t sack the players. It doesn''t matter whose fault it is.You''re living in cloud cuckoo land if you think we can just choose to get promoted when we fancy it.[/quote]

Change can happen over a longer period of time than instantly - and players can be got rid of over time too.  And btw, I never said anything about choosing when to get promoted when we fancy it, merely that we should have long term strategies in place - ie development from within.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

[quote user="lake district canary"]I guess my point, simply put, is stick with a manager you believe in and get rid of players who aren''t up to the task.  Might be painful in the short term, but long term might be just what we need.

[/quote]

That might be all well and good if I had seen anything in Alex Neil''s management to make me believe in him. Even if I had then its a huge risk to take given the financial stakes.

As it is I would take issue with the claim he has demonstrated himself to be intelligent, certainly in terms of game management anyway. Talks a good game but I think he''s a massive bluffer and probably has been from the start.

[Lessingham Canary 99]

Swindon Canary;

"As they said on ''Monday night football'' when a goal is let in, the first thing to look at is accountability. At that point I thought what happens when it''s a different (Norwich) player for every goal let in ?"

In a word "organisation", or add 2 more "lack of", but the question LDC is asking (I guess) is that down to the players or the manager ? then we would have to say what work is going on at Colney, and who accepts responsibility or who blames who for not doing their jobs correctly (and not winning individual battles).

[Jim Smith 2,339]

[quote user="Lessingham Canary"]Swindon Canary;

"As they said on ''Monday night football'' when a goal is let in, the first thing to look at is accountability. At that point I thought what happens when it''s a different (Norwich) player for every goal let in ?"

In a word "organisation", or add 2 more "lack of", but the question LDC is asking (I guess) is that down to the players or the manager ? then we would have to say what work is going on at Colney, and who accepts responsibility or who blames who for not doing their jobs correctly (and not winning individual battles).[/quote]

Bit of both really. Individual mistakes and not following instructions is initially down to the players but when it happens consistently over more than 12 months then its down to the manager to change/replace the players and get players in who can defend if the existing players can''t/won''t do what is needed. the fact he keeps picking some of the worst culprits doesn''t speak volumes for his judgment. He even gave Whitaker a new contract this summer having dropped him from the squad entirely last season because he was a liability.

But also when its all of the defenders, and those defenders have all proven at one time or another in the past that they can mark and defend properly then surely you have to question the coaching and the management as well. Our marking from crosses and set pieces is appalling and has been throughout his reign. One way or another that has to come back to the manager and coaches.

[morty 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="morty"][quote user="lake district canary"]I guess my point, simply put, is stick with a manager you believe in and get rid of players who aren''t up to the task.  Might be painful in the short term, but long term might be just what we need. [/quote]Do you think the players believe in him, right now? Is years of mediocrity in the Championship what we need then?[/quote]

So if they don''t  believe in him, whose fault would that be?  Is it the players or the manager?  That is the choice the club have to decide. My view - from outside - is that the players are letting the manager down.  When 3-1 up at Newcastle, presumably because the players were playing well for theselves and the manager, was it the players or manager who let in the soft goals  at the end?  And on Saturday was it the manager who failed to deal with the throw in or was it Bassong and Olsson''s fault?   As for years in the championship, that is not something I would dread, far from it. Promotion takes however long it takes.  The years we had in the championship  between 2004 and 2009 were pretty awful largely because we were in huge debt.  That debt will not happen again because we are a healthy club with good finances and with some good youngsters on the books.  If we can''t get promotion thise season using the senior players, we have a good set up for rebuilding from within.

[/quote]A change has to be made, and we can''t sack the players. It doesn''t matter whose fault it is.You''re living in cloud cuckoo land if you think we can just choose to get promoted when we fancy it.[/quote]

Change can happen over a longer period of time than instantly - and players can be got rid of over time too.  And btw, I never said anything about choosing when to get promoted when we fancy it, merely that we should have long term strategies in place - ie development from within.

[/quote]If it was that exact a science why are Forest, Derby, Ipswich, Sheff Wed etc etc etc all languishing in the Championship?Our very best chance of promotion is this season. And I think you know that, but are just continuing the discussion rather than admit you are wrong.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

Your point about Hughton is irrelevant. ''...Become the manager we can see he is today'' ??????

He was already a successful and very competent championship manager, we all knew that. What he wasn''t and what he still isn''t, is a a manager who can cut it in the PL which is what we needed. How long did you expect us to wait to find that because 3 years later he still isn''t what we needed and it''s not a coincidence no PL club has taken a punt on him when needing a new manager.

Maybe he will make it, maybe with Brighton but that will be 4 years after we needed him to be a hell of a lot better for us. He had his chance and was terrible for us. Refusal to change and losing the fans all meant he had to go. Your failure to admit this blindingly obvious fact dents any argument you now have to keep AN.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

So in simple terms lakey would accept years of mid table mediocrity if it meant giving the manager a "chance". If we don''t go this season or next we''ll have to start selling andmaddiveky cut our budget which could mean years in this division. No thanks.

[Hoola Han Solo 448]

Although it does offer that weird paradox of City fans who say they prefer the Championship, then moan when we''re not look like we''re going to get promoted, out of the division that they say they enjoy more. Personally I''d settle for mid table mediocrity in the Premier League for several years.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

I haven''t turned yet and despite dodgy poles I''m not of the opinion the majority of regular fans have either. I don''t believe managers go into an inevitable terminal decline after a bad run, he and the players can turn this around

There don''t seem to be many on here sticking up for AN but I am prepared to say he will still be our manager at the end of the season and we will finish in the top six.

I can still remember Wembley and our great run to gain promotion, can you?

[Chesney Hawkes 0]

It''s like that

And that''s the way it is

Whuuuh!

[morty 0]

Classic.

[......and Smith must score. 1,360]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]I haven''t turned yet and despite dodgy poles I''m not of the opinion the majority of regular fans have either. I don''t believe managers go into an inevitable terminal decline after a bad run, he and the players can turn this around

There don''t seem to be many on here sticking up for AN but I am prepared to say he will still be our manager at the end of the season and we will finish in the top six.

I can still remember Wembley and our great run to gain promotion, can you?[/quote]Shouldn''t this be on the EU thread ? [;)]

[morty 0]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]I haven''t turned yet and despite dodgy poles I''m not of the opinion the majority of regular fans have either. I don''t believe managers go into an inevitable terminal decline after a bad run, he and the players can turn this around

There don''t seem to be many on here sticking up for AN but I am prepared to say he will still be our manager at the end of the season and we will finish in the top six.

I can still remember Wembley and our great run to gain promotion, can you?[/quote]I hope you''re right, and if I see the players fighting for Alex Neil on Saturday, I''ll be right behind him too[Y]

[Lessingham Canary 99]

Mr Jenkins wrote

"

I haven''t turned yet and despite dodgy poles I''m not of the opinion the majority of regular fans have either".

Since Brexit, the Eastern Europeans have been blamed for just about everything, think that is so wrong and unfair.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]I haven''t turned yet and despite dodgy poles I''m not of the opinion the majority of regular fans have either. I don''t believe managers go into an inevitable terminal decline after a bad run, he and the players can turn this around

There don''t seem to be many on here sticking up for AN but I am prepared to say he will still be our manager at the end of the season and we will finish in the top six.

I can still remember Wembley and our great run to gain promotion, can you?[/quote]

It''s not a bad run he''s just not a good manager, in my opinion. We must mix with a very different set of regular fans.

[STAN 29]

Don''t kid yourself Lessingham...

We all know the dodgy poles are the epicentre of this crisis.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Jim

"It''s not a bad run he''s just not a good manager, in my opinion. We must mix with a very different set of regular fans."

Do you mix with the handful that were booing after the Leeds game Jim?

[Mr Jenkins 0]

morty wrote the following post at 22/11/2016 5:47 PM:

Mr Jenkins wrote:

I haven''t turned yet and despite dodgy poles I''m not of the opinion the majority of regular fans have either. I don''t believe managers go into an inevitable terminal decline after a bad run, he and the players can turn this around There don''t seem to be many on here sticking up for AN but I am prepared to say he will still be our manager at the end of the season and we will finish in the top six. I can still remember Wembley and our great run to gain promotion, can you?

I hope you''re right, and if I see the players fighting for Alex Neil on Saturday, I''ll be right behind him tooYes [Y]

Did you see any fight in the players at QPR Morty

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Are the AN outers the same group as the Brexiteers Lessingham, or are they poles apart?😉

[morty 0]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]morty wrote the following post at 22/11/2016 5:47 PM:

Mr Jenkins wrote:

I haven''t turned yet and despite dodgy poles I''m not of the opinion the majority of regular fans have either. I don''t believe managers go into an inevitable terminal decline after a bad run, he and the players can turn this around There don''t seem to be many on here sticking up for AN but I am prepared to say he will still be our manager at the end of the season and we will finish in the top six. I can still remember Wembley and our great run to gain promotion, can you?

I hope you''re right, and if I see the players fighting for Alex Neil on Saturday, I''ll be right behind him tooYes [Y]

Did you see any fight in the players at QPR Morty[/quote]At times, yes.The whole thing was overshadowed by the early sending off too though, hence me still not being 100% sure.

[Mr Jenkins 0]

Absolutely, but since the QPR game lots of posters seem to have decided it''s the end for AN. Fair enough, but to me it doesn''t seem to be a fair game to be pushing people one way or the other really. I know AN lives or dies by results but blimey, a sending off the second minute away from home.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Mr Jenkins"]Absolutely, but since the QPR game lots of posters seem to have decided it''s the end for AN. Fair enough, but to me it doesn''t seem to be a fair game to be pushing people one way or the other really. I know AN lives or dies by results but blimey, a sending off the second minute away from home.[/quote]As I have stated, the tipping point, for me, is when the players give up.But you can''t ignore our plummet from the top of the league in the last month.Whatever happens, something needs to change, and quick.

[City 2nd 191]

Mr Jenkins wrote the following post at 2016-11-22 10:19 PM:

Absolutely, but since the QPR game lots of posters seem to have decided it''s the end for AN. Fair enough, but to me it doesn''t seem to be a fair game to be pushing people one way or the other really. I know AN lives or dies by results but blimey, a sending off the second minute away from home.

Sorry Mr J but I think it''s the results, or lack of them, that will see the demise of AN. And as I pointed out to LDC, the sending off wasn''t to blame for the defeat on Saturday, but the pi** poor defending that has blighted the reign of AN that led to the sending off, and the second goal. Were you there? It was very lucky it wasn''t three after the Liverpoolesque backpass made by the captain in the second half!

[king canary 7,679]

@Mr Jenkins

I remember that run.

I also remember the last five losses in a row.

I also remember throwing away four different two goal leads in 2016.

I also remember complete no shows in crucial games last season (Bournemouth and Palace away, Sunderland at home).

I also remember going down with a bit of a whimper last season.

So what''s more important?