To all those who said they'd give AN 10 games

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Yes I''d agree with that to a degree westy. But 2002 to 2004 we also got it right. Then came the magnificent south stand which hugely impacted in a negative way. However that same stand has had a positive impact since 2009. Food for thought when discussing ground expansion. We had no choice last time.

[westcoastcanary 0]

@king canaryRedmond wasn''t the only young player; we''d already signed Dani Ayala and Hughton brought in Jacob Butterfield as well as Redmond. Those two signings didn''t work out as well in the end, but we still made them.

[westcoastcanary 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I''d agree with that to a degree westy. But 2002 to 2004 we also got it right. Then came the magnificent south stand which hugely impacted in a negative way. However that same stand has had a positive impact since 2009. Food for thought when discussing ground expansion. We had no choice last time.[/quote][Y] nutty. I did toy with the idea of putting "?" instead of "." at the end of that second sentence [:D]

[93vintage 16]

@HogesarI''d be happy with the young players that we''ve bought and I agree about players like the Murphy twins. But in a similar way to how we''ve stuck to investing in our youth academy, I think longer term we''d reap the benefits if we bought a few more players in their mid 20s like Brady, who had some experience and didn''t cost an arm and a leg.I don''t think we''ll compete effectively enough if we rely on trying to buy older players with PL experience as we''re going up against better financed sides who are doing the same thing. The trick is to pick out the Brady''s over the older equivalent; I get the impression that when we go for experience we struggle to afford real PL quality and end up with players who aren''t a huge amount better and aren''t as likely to improve.We''ve got to make more money when we sell, and buying younger is a prerequisite to this. Buying younger also helps lower our outlay because we don''t need to replace players as often. Even a shift down of our average buying age of say 1-2 years would have a positive impact and help us to compete better with the lower half of the PL.You''re probably too young to remember the late 80s and early 90s, but what I''ve described worked quite well back then because the financial benefit outweighed what was lost in terms of experience. There was a cycle of buying cheap and young, then selling for a decent fee. We often did quite well on the pitch and were still able to splash out on some good quality players (eg Fleck, Robins).

[93vintage 16]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I''d agree with that to a degree westy. But 2002 to 2004 we also got it right. Then came the magnificent south stand which hugely impacted in a negative way. However that same stand has had a positive impact since 2009. Food for thought when discussing ground expansion. We had no choice last time.[/quote]We often seem to have done well when we''ve not had much money to spend. It''s when we spend big money that it all goes wrong.Worthy in 2001 knocked together a reasonably decent team on a shoestring budget, ditto Lambert in 2009. Then Worthy circa 2006 and Hughton in 2012 spend a fair amount and it starts going wrong.

[morty 0]

[quote user="93vintage"][quote user="nutty nigel"]Yes I''d agree with that to a degree westy. But 2002 to 2004 we also got it right. Then came the magnificent south stand which hugely impacted in a negative way. However that same stand has had a positive impact since 2009. Food for thought when discussing ground expansion. We had no choice last time.[/quote]We often seem to have done well when we''ve not had much money to spend. It''s when we spend big money that it all goes wrong.Worthy in 2001 knocked together a reasonably decent team on a shoestring budget, ditto Lambert in 2009. Then Worthy circa 2006 and Hughton in 2012 spend a fair amount and it starts going wrong.[/quote]The thing is though, the money we spent, on those occasions, wasn''t a great deal of money in the wider football sense, but it was a great deal of money for Norwich City, which immediately raises fans'' expectations.Do you thing Man Utd fans would have been bothered if they had wasted 8 million on a striker that didn''t work out?

[Van wink 2,994]

Interesting point 93, we have certainly been driven towards a policy of substantial investment ( for us ) in young promising players. It seems to be working and that success will surely encourage more of he same both by the club and in terms of successfully encouraging other promising youngsters to come here.

It''s not a alternative to bringing in quality established players but it''s going to be a very big part of our future strategy IMO.

My big concern this season was not just the obvious desire for promotion but also developing a young hungry and confident squad who can hopefully continue to develop in the EPL.

[PurpleCanary 5,560]

There are two temptations being unresisted here. One is to see deliberate long-term plans and patterns of behaviour and to fit specific actions into those plans and patterns, when the reality has almost certainly been that most of those actions were forced by a combination of financial necessity or constraints and short- and medium term footballing needs. As Harold Macmillan supposedly said about what stopped him governing the country just as he would like: "Events, dear boy, events.'' The second unresisted temptation to to make comparisons across decades, and particularly to the pre-Premier League and mega-money era. By their nature, because of the vast changes since then, they are prone to be flawed.

[Tumbleweed 106]

I will freely admit that I have been sceptical about AN as being the right man for us after last season, but he has impressed me much more this time around and he is now doing very well. For me the biggest change is playing players in position and on a more regular basis- i.e. not so much tinkering and formational adjustment. I think this is starting to show through and that fluidity and the even more convincing performances will surely follow. the important thing has been to get back to winning ways, and while we have won a few scratchily that will bring confidence.

Re the players there have been few recently I have disagreed with (Jarvis is a prime example of a strange one, and Bamford on loan)- I thought Naismith was an exciting capture. It is strange how some work out and some don''t. I wonder whether the bigger the name the more they are likely to struggle to adjust to Norwich as a location and the club in general.

[Jim Smith 2,317]

I stand by my comments. Neil is doing ok this season, nothing more. The good thing is that "ok" may well be enough. Its a bit like Russell Martin. He does "ok" at centre back at this level and will probably do a good enough job to get us up but I don''t think he is the long term answer there.

With Neil he may be the long term answer, he may not and there is more scope (and time) for him to improve but personally I don''t think we sit top of the league due to managerial or coaching excellence over the summer and in the early part of this season. If we were sitting top and playing brilliantly my answer would be different. Yes he''s not making as many mistakes as last season but there have still been a few strange decisions and the substitutions still don''t really alter games. We haven''t really played particularly well in most of our games and the defence has looked distinctly iffy at times. We just have very good players at this level, a greater margin for error in games than last season and a manager who is not a complete idiot like many other football managers out there appear to be.

So there you go. He''s doing ok. I hope he continues but for me getting out of this league again with this squad (our last two champ squads and Newcastle''s last two) have arguably been the best ever 4 squads at this level) will not be proof that he has learnt from last season. That will only come if we get up and he keeps us up.

[morty 0]

Top of the league, and he is just doing "ok".Brilliant[:D]

[nutty nigel 7,534]

You''re a hard task master Jimbo. I hope you don''t keep a dog....

So if Neil does the impossible and finishes ahead of a CL winner or two will he still have it all to prove? 

[hogesar 9,671]

[quote user="morty"]Top of the league, and he is just doing "ok".Brilliant[:D][/quote]

Very strange post, isn''t it?

AN currently has us top, whilst clubs with managers with much more experience, and even much more financial clout, are below us.

That''s a bit better than OK, whichever side of the fence you sit.

[hogesar 9,671]

[quote user="Thecanaryfan"]

He seems to truly grasp Championship football. And I will back him all the way and back him again in the PL if we get back. Every manager faces the ten game rule when things are not going well. It is not a hate thing. It is his job.

[/quote]

I''m really annoyed you''ve practically taken SkankHunt42 before I''ve had a chance to.

[morty 0]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="morty"]Top of the league, and he is just doing "ok".Brilliant[:D][/quote]

Very strange post, isn''t it?

AN currently has us top, whilst clubs with managers with much more experience, and even much more financial clout, are below us.

That''s a bit better than OK, whichever side of the fence you sit.

[/quote]Maybe he''s saving his excitement for when we are ten points clear?

[TCCANARY 263]

I get the feeling that when given a present Jim likes to criticise the paper it was wrapped in.

[hogesar 9,671]

[quote user="morty"][quote user="hogesar"][quote user="morty"]Top of the league, and he is just doing "ok".Brilliant[:D][/quote]

Very strange post, isn''t it?

AN currently has us top, whilst clubs with managers with much more experience, and even much more financial clout, are below us.

That''s a bit better than OK, whichever side of the fence you sit.

[/quote]Maybe he''s saving his excitement for when we are ten points clear?[/quote]

Yeah right...

"Neil Lennon would ''av ''ad us 40 points clear by now"

[:D]

[morty 0]

[:D][Y]

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="hogesar"][quote user="morty"]Top of the league, and he is just doing "ok".Brilliant[:D][/quote]

Very strange post, isn''t it?

AN currently has us top, whilst clubs with managers with much more experience, and even much more financial clout, are below us.

That''s a bit better than OK, whichever side of the fence you sit.

[/quote]

Not at all. I''m just looking at why we are top of the league and undertaking an assessment of how he is doing based on he level of performance he is getting out of our players (i.e. not solely on results).

Just like when Chris Hughton had us sitting outside the relegation zone and most people thought he was doing a good job. We slip to 17th and suddenly he''s not. League position is not the sole criteria. You can look and watch and form a judgment as to how well a manager is doing certain things.

I''ve not said he''s performing badly but I think his performance in terms of how he is getting the team to play is about par so far this season (results good, performances patchy) and he and we can perform better (and will probably need to). Benitez and RDM have both underperformed so far but that''s not really relevant to how good a job I think Neil is doing to be honest.

[morty 0]

But, ultimately, Alex Neil is outperforming every single other Championship manager, so far.Yeah?

[Jim Smith 2,317]

[quote user="morty"]But, ultimately, Alex Neil is outperforming every single other Championship manager, so far.Yeah?[/quote]

Not necessarily no. Arguably Wagner, Rowett, Heckingbottom and whoever is Brentford manager now are performing better given the resources and players they have at their disposal.

[morty 0]

Brilliant[:D]So they''ll handicap the league, come the end of the season, depending on how many resources you have?

[nutty nigel 7,534]

We''ll now, if success is guaged by resources Delia is the best owner in the country...

[king canary 7,606]

@Westcoast

Butterfield and Ayala were both signed in different seasons to Redmond, not sure what you''re getting at?

[westcoastcanary 0]

[quote user="king canary"]@Westcoast

Butterfield and Ayala were both signed in different seasons to Redmond, not sure what you''re getting at?[/quote]Just pointing out that the imbalance of our signings age-wise wasn''t quite as bad as mentioning only Redmond seemed to imply. There was Ryan B of course too.

[C Goodenough 5]

[quote user="morty"]Brilliant[:D]So they''ll handicap the league, come the end of the season, depending on how many resources you have?[/quote]

That would be modernising the game

[a1canary 0]

One of AN''s mistakes last year I thought was the endlessly repeated emphasis on not conceding first. This was emphasised all the more because we seemed to only ever win in the games where we scored first. Thereby consolidating the point he was making.

But this meant the players heads were gone as soon as we conceded first because they almost felt like they could only win games when they score first.

I think one of the first things to click for us this year is that we have shed the shackles of that mentality and realised we can still step it up and win, even if we concede.

This also related to AN''s decision to stop playing an open attacking style (like Bournemouth) and switch to a containing style (like West Brom). This worked initially, emphasised by Bournemouth''s struggles early on. What made it all the more interesting was Eddie Howe''s refusal to change style and AN''s decision to change ours. We know how in the end that worked out for the respective teams.

Would love to know what AN thinks of those decisions he took now. That''s not to say I was castigating him and calling for his head on the basis that he ultimately, despite best intentions, made the wrong call.

I was never one to give him 10 games but it''s interesting to note that he has managed to rally the team, shed the relegation hangover, dealt with transfer window aggro (not getting who we wanted and dealing with wantaway players) and get them starting to play with the necessary confidence... all in the first 10 games. No question that he should stay, never was for me.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Great post a1 and great to see you posting[Y]

[king canary 7,606]

@westcoastcanary

I only mentioned Redmond as I was only talking about those transfer windows. Otherwise we might as well chuck in Phil Mulryne....

[westcoastcanary 173]

[quote user="king canary"]@westcoastcanary

I only mentioned Redmond as I was only talking about those transfer windows. Otherwise we might as well chuck in Phil Mulryne....[/quote][Y]  When you said the emphasis had indeed changed this summer but you otherwise agreed with 93vintage I took you, like him, to be referring to a longer period, not just Hughton''s final year and thereafter.