Deja Vu All Over Again: Martin and Darnborough?

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

I haven''t posted on this messageboard for a year now because the negativity does my head in, but for the first time since I''m angry enough to feel the need for a rant.

I''m normally one of the most positive Norwich fans there is. I hate the moaners and the negativity, and I''ve been called a ''happy clapper'' more than a once.

But even I have to admit that our transfer business over the past few weeks has been pathetic at best, and disgusting at worst, when you consider the money we have and the business our rivals have conducted.

Our rivals have signed all signed big money forwards this window and have a vast array of quality attackers. Who do we have? Only Jerome, Oliveira and Kyle fucking Lafferty.

That brings me on to my main point: Ricky Martin and Lee Darnborough have performed dreadfully for two summers in a row now and serious questions need to be asked. The main one being: are these two qualified to be in their respective positions? My answer is a resounding ''no''. Also, Jez Moxey has been in his job for a very short time but he''s playing catch up already after this debacle.

The man I feel sorry for though is Alex Neil. The people above him have completely sold him short for the second summer in a row and he''s the one who will get it in the neck when we fail to perform, even though the real culprits will escape criticism.

[ZLF 335]

This faceless duo do seem to be free from responsibility of blame and not having a viable third striker does need explaining.

Did AN really say no to that many options?

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

Our rivals have signed all signed big money forwards this window and have a vast array of quality attackers..[/quote]Are you saying that our only rivals are Villa, Newcastle and Cardiff?

You have inadvertantly raised an interesting point, we''ve probably never had the same people involved in any of the transfer windows and yet it always seems to end in a scramble on the last day, is it the people or the transfer window? Look at the situation with Everton yesterday, it seems that very few clubs get it 100% correct every time.

 

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

Our rivals have signed all signed big money forwards this window and have a vast array of quality attackers..[/quote]Are you saying that our only rivals are Villa, Newcastle and Cardiff?

You have inadvertantly raised an interesting point, we''ve probably never had the same people involved in any of the transfer windows and yet it always seems to end in a scramble on the last day, is it the people or the transfer window? Look at the situation with Everton yesterday, it seems that very few clubs get it 100% correct every time.

 [/quote]

I was including Derby and Sheffield Wednesday in that, and probably Brighton too.

A lot of clubs scramble madly on deadline day but most get what they need. For two years in a row now, we haven''t.

I remember when McNally and Lambert were running the show. Deadline day meant nothing to us as we had our business all sewn up by the end of July.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"][quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

Our rivals have signed all signed big money forwards this window and have a vast array of quality attackers..[/quote]Are you saying that our only rivals are Villa, Newcastle and Cardiff?

You have inadvertantly raised an interesting point, we''ve probably never had the same people involved in any of the transfer windows and yet it always seems to end in a scramble on the last day, is it the people or the transfer window? Look at the situation with Everton yesterday, it seems that very few clubs get it 100% correct every time.

 [/quote] 

I remember when McNally and Lambert were running the show. Deadline day meant nothing to us as we had our business all sewn up by the end of July.[/quote]That was one transfer window, it was the exception.We are not the only club who leave it to the last day/hour/minute, lots fail to land the player(s) that they want. I''ve no idea why they do this and I think if you asked them they would struggle to justify why it happens.

 

[CJ 1]

Please do not let AN off the blame here, read the statement about strikers he made a couple of days ago as deadline approached . He made it clear yes he would like another striker HOWEVER he did not say we must have another striker.

Personally I am fed up with these managers who will not just say the truth ie can not afford another unless someone goes or what we have is good enough etc.

We have too many players in the squad now who should be gone but will instead train all week knowing full well they will not be playing on Saturday!

[djc 0]

Moving into the final day of the window, we (speculation) wanted:

Mbokani - on loan. Hull offered Premier League, so we didnt get him or couldnt compete.

Rhodes - Alex Neil big admirer : Middlesborough either not selling or we didnt bid, or offer not suitable.

Jerome Sinclair - 6month loan deal fell through last night, approx 8pm (according to local radio news this morning).

yes, we left it all to the final day (again) and we missed out (again) blah blah blah....

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

What managers say and what managers think are two different things. Alex was probably more desperate than us for new strikers and he''d be tearing his hair our right now if he had any. He had to downplay it though just in case we ended up in this situation; he can now put a brave face on things and show a positive exterior.

As for the McNally/Lambert combo getting things done early, it was actually both years they had a full summer in which everything was tied up by the start of the season.

I have no idea why clubs leave it late, I really don''t. They think they''re holding out for the best deal but prices generally get steeper and a lot of clubs refuse to sell because they can''t get replacements, even though they''re nearly all in the same boat anyway.

A lot of clubs do it and it baffles me. Why not just aggressively attack your targets early and even overpay if need be? Fees will rise anyway and there is plenty of time for selling clubs to get replacements.

We saw the silly games that Real Madrid and Man Utd played all last summer over De Gea and they were 27 minutes late in the end. I think both of those have learnt their lessons, so why didn''t we? This game of brinkmanship often blows up in clubs'' faces.

[norfolkngood 1,174]

i am also fed up how AN gets away with it every transfer window never his fault board or recruitment

Rubbish he has final say on all transfers

he draws up the short list from scouts

he decides the shape of the team and tactics

he says yes or no to players offered to club

we need a manager who attracts players to the club

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

[quote user="norfolkngood"]i am also fed up how AN gets away with it every transfer window never his fault board or recruitment

Rubbish he has final say on all transfers

he draws up the short list from scouts

he decides the shape of the team and tactics

he says yes or no to players offered to club

we need a manager who attracts players to the club[/quote]

I see it the other way round. Neil gets the criticism because a lot of people still have their heads in the 90s (not you, it is a general observation) where they see the manager as the man in charge of transfers. It doesn''t work like that any more. Neil will give his list of targets and the men above him have to make it happen, but they haven''t. I think Martin and Darnborough are more at fault than Neil.

[norfolkngood 1,174]

i do Know for a fact Neil has final say on Transfers

i know the CEO etc does the deals but if the maths add up and are within budget set by the board

i think one of the Reasons we miss out is AN is so worried about getting it wrong he over complicates it

i think he overthinks things and maybe does not trusts the scouts as much as he should

i know someone very close to the dealings i can not wait to hear what went on this summer but i think i am not wide of the mark

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

By ''final say'', all that means is that the board won''t sign a player unless Alex wants them. Alex gives his thumbs up to a player and then the men above are the ones in charge of getting it done.

Also, Alex Neil obviously isn''t going to turn down a proven, top class Championship striker. There were a few available at various times throughout the window, yet we haven''t signed one. Whose fault is that? Either the board for not releasing the funds or the recruitment for not getting it over the line.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

As for the McNally/Lambert combo getting things done early, it was actually both years they had a full summer in which everything was tied up by the start of the season.[/quote]

Signed Ayala after the season started and also arranged loans (Leon Barnett)  after the season had started.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

As for the McNally/Lambert combo getting things done early, it was actually both years they had a full summer in which everything was tied up by the start of the season.[/quote]

Signed Ayala after the season started and also arranged loans (Leon Barnett)  after the season had started.

[/quote]

The vast majority of business (and all important first XI business) was done before the season started.

[Tumbleweed 106]

We''ve known for pretty much two years that the CB positions needed strengthening and Klose comes in too late and then gets injured. Two years this lack of strength in depth in a critical position has been neglected!! the strikings ituation has been a mess- Grabban, Hooper, RvW, Bamford, MBokani, Lafferty, Morris and Loza not being developed, even going back to Becchio. It is indeed a bit of a shambles.

But even though I agree we''ve been left behind a bit I still think we should be able to challenge towards the top. Its the core management team I am more concerned about and I don''t think we have the experience necessary in young Alex, sadly.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"][quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

As for the McNally/Lambert combo getting things done early, it was actually both years they had a full summer in which everything was tied up by the start of the season.[/quote]

Signed Ayala after the season started and also arranged loans (Leon Barnett)  after the season had started.

[/quote]

The vast majority of business (and all important first XI business) was done before the season started.[/quote]

So not ''everything'' and not all ''sewn up by the end of July'', you took your time but I''m glad you agreed with my original point.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"][quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

As for the McNally/Lambert combo getting things done early, it was actually both years they had a full summer in which everything was tied up by the start of the season.[/quote]

Signed Ayala after the season started and also arranged loans (Leon Barnett)  after the season had started.

[/quote]

The vast majority of business (and all important first XI business) was done before the season started.[/quote]

So not ''everything'' and not all ''sewn up by the end of July'', you took your time but I''m glad you agreed with my original point.

[/quote]

Let''s bring this back to the original point. I''ll ask you a question:

Which of these scenarios are preferable?

a) The Lambert/McNally approach of getting all essential transfer business completed by the start of the season, which generally meant we had a strong campaign with no obvious gaps in the squad.

b) The current approach for the last two years where we''ve left the most important business to deadline in an attempt to get the best possible deal but missed out completely and left ourselves threadbare in important areas (centre back last season, attack this season).

We both know the answer.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

 Let''s bring this back to the original point. I''ll ask you a question:

Which of these scenarios are preferable?

a) The Lambert/McNally approach of getting all essential transfer business completed by the start of the season, which generally meant we had a strong campaign with no obvious gaps in the squad.

b) The current approach for the last two years where we''ve left the most important business to deadline in an attempt to get the best possible deal but missed out completely and left ourselves threadbare in important areas (centre back last season, attack this season).

We both know the answer.[/quote]

There were gaps in the squad, that''s why they bought loans in.It also probably means that they might have even been trying to bring in players up to the transfer window deadline but failed like other clubs do.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

 Let''s bring this back to the original point. I''ll ask you a question:

Which of these scenarios are preferable?

a) The Lambert/McNally approach of getting all essential transfer business completed by the start of the season, which generally meant we had a strong campaign with no obvious gaps in the squad.

b) The current approach for the last two years where we''ve left the most important business to deadline in an attempt to get the best possible deal but missed out completely and left ourselves threadbare in important areas (centre back last season, attack this season).

We both know the answer.[/quote]

There were gaps in the squad, that''s why they bought loans in.It also probably means that they might have even been trying to bring in players up to the transfer window deadline but failed like other clubs do.

[/quote]

To be honest, I had the Premier League season in my head when I made that comment, but the fact a loan window existed means it was less of an issue. And it still doesn''t change the fact that, without wanting to sound like a broken record here, all important transfer business was completed before the season. Pacheco, Vokes and Lansbury just topped up the squad.

You still haven''t answered the question, by the way.

[Mason 47 1,923]

The way I see it, the main reason for all this aggro is simply because every man and his dog could identify that the main issue this year (after confirming Klose would stay) was that we needed strikers.

Deadwood was slowly shipped out, decks were cleared, rumours abound, and it seemed for all the world we were ready to welcome our new goalscorers. Then we get one ''could-be'' good signing, and are scrambling about for loan deals on deadline day because we still hadn''t got that job done.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"][quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]

 Let''s bring this back to the original point. I''ll ask you a question:

Which of these scenarios are preferable?

a) The Lambert/McNally approach of getting all essential transfer business completed by the start of the season, which generally meant we had a strong campaign with no obvious gaps in the squad.

b) The current approach for the last two years where we''ve left the most important business to deadline in an attempt to get the best possible deal but missed out completely and left ourselves threadbare in important areas (centre back last season, attack this season).

We both know the answer.[/quote]

There were gaps in the squad, that''s why they bought loans in.It also probably means that they might have even been trying to bring in players up to the transfer window deadline but failed like other clubs do.

[/quote]

To be honest, I had the Premier League season in my head when I made that comment, but the fact a loan window existed means it was less of an issue. And it still doesn''t change the fact that, without wanting to sound like a broken record here, all important transfer business was completed before the season. Pacheco, Vokes and Lansbury just topped up the squad.

You still haven''t answered the question, by the way.[/quote]I''m not sure that your reasoning is correct re the second scenario, were they waiting to the last minute to get a better deal or was it because they had no choice? Last season it was reported that they had deals agreed for players but they were reliant on other deals happening, the chain never linked up and the players never came. This season it has been reported that Naismith couldn''t agree terms with Sunderland, the offer for Ruddy wasn''t upped after the first bid was rejected and Cardiff weren''t prepared to meet Lafferty''s demands. As for the players we were linked with, some went to Premier League clubs and maybe the others were reliant on other deals happening. I think they were trying from day 1 to get the players in, why they didn''t manage to will only be explained at a later date.The tranfer window seems to be following the trend that players with a year left on their contracts go in the early part, the overpriced deals happen in the middle bit and the deals that have to ''forced'' take place at the end.I think everyone would prefer that clubs acted as soon as possible but that doesn''t seem to be the way it is, an agent on 5 Live last night said that he is working on deals before and all through the window but he could''nt explain why a lot happen at the last minute.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

I still think the club should''ve been more proactive. We didn''t sign a player until well into July, and I think were one of the last (if not the last) clubs to make a signing. Why? We''re one of the richest clubs in the division after being in the Premier League so long. Newcastle were active and added quality early on, but we sat here twiddling our thumbs again.

Also, even if the club didn''t mean to leave it late, most clubs (not all) who did ended up with players. We didn''t. I don''t have much faith for next summer unless our recruitment team is restructured.

[TCCANARY 263]

[quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]I still think the club should''ve been more proactive. We didn''t sign a player until well into July, and I think were one of the last (if not the last) clubs to make a signing. Why? We''re one of the richest clubs in the division after being in the Premier League so long. Newcastle were active and added quality early on, but we sat here twiddling our thumbs again.

Also, even if the club didn''t mean to leave it late, most clubs (not all) who did ended up with players. We didn''t. I don''t have much faith for next summer unless our recruitment team is restructured.[/quote]

I don''t think it''s who is involved, it''s the transfer window itself that''s the problem. I can only go on what the people who are involved say about it but last night on 5Live the agent said it''s a stupid system which doesn''t work and I agree. He said that he will get calls from clubs throughout the year regarding players and they try to get ''agreements in principle'' but these don''t always work out. I fully expect every transfer window to be full of false dawns regarding signing players regardless of who we have in our recruitment team, who the manager is and who the CEO is. Even the clubs with the new ''investors'' (Everton, WBA, Palace etc.) lost out on getting players because they couldn''t ''force'' the deal through. 

[Mr Apples 1,407]

Is it possible to have deja vu all over again?

Apples

[Van wink 2,994]

"

That brings me on to my main point: Ricky Martin and Lee Darnborough have performed dreadfully for two summers in a row now and serious questions need to be asked. The main one being: are these two qualified to be in their respective positions? "

A question Wacky that a few of us have been posing for some considerable time.

[Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man 4,615]

[quote user="TCCANARY"][quote user="Wacky Waving Inflatable Arm Flailing Tube Man"]I still think the club should''ve been more proactive. We didn''t sign a player until well into July, and I think were one of the last (if not the last) clubs to make a signing. Why? We''re one of the richest clubs in the division after being in the Premier League so long. Newcastle were active and added quality early on, but we sat here twiddling our thumbs again.

Also, even if the club didn''t mean to leave it late, most clubs (not all) who did ended up with players. We didn''t. I don''t have much faith for next summer unless our recruitment team is restructured.[/quote]

I don''t think it''s who is involved, it''s the transfer window itself that''s the problem. I can only go on what the people who are involved say about it but last night on 5Live the agent said it''s a stupid system which doesn''t work and I agree. He said that he will get calls from clubs throughout the year regarding players and they try to get ''agreements in principle'' but these don''t always work out. I fully expect every transfer window to be full of false dawns regarding signing players regardless of who we have in our recruitment team, who the manager is and who the CEO is. Even the clubs with the new ''investors'' (Everton, WBA, Palace etc.) lost out on getting players because they couldn''t ''force'' the deal through. [/quote]

I see your point, but that is another debate for another day. The fact remains that the transfer window exists and we have to negotiate it, ideally better than our rivals. But we have failed miserably two years in a row because I don''t think the men in the positions are experienced (Martin) or good (Darnborough) enough.

[TCCANARY 263]

I have no idea whether we didn''t get all of the players we wanted is because of those two people, unfortunately we can''t run a parallel experiment to decide that.We''ve had people who have been in the process for several years (McNally for example) some have been productive and others have not. Jed Moxey has been through several transfer windows, even if he was just a spectator at this one (I don''t think that is the case as he said he was involved with the Pritchard signing) he would be able to judge whether we doing things in the correct way.If it were just us that failed to get players then I would agree that the people in place are not delivering but other clubs have the same issues.

[Nuff Said 5,960]

[quote user="CJ"]Please do not let AN off the blame here, read the statement about strikers he made a couple of days ago as deadline approached . He made it clear yes he would like another striker HOWEVER he did not say we must have another striker.

Personally I am fed up with these managers who will not just say the truth ie can not afford another unless someone goes or what we have is good enough etc.

We have too many players in the squad now who should be gone but will instead train all week knowing full well they will not be playing on Saturday![/quote]I''m no expert but isn''t that the way squads are supposed to work? Or are you suggesting we should slim down to a squad of 11 players? I suppose that would give us a bigger budget come January.

[TIL 1010 5,246]

I now make it two threads where Ricky Martin is being questioned but hey he is a nice chap. [:D]

[Paul Spector 0]

We just don''t seem to be learning mistakes from previous windows.

Buck has to stop somewhere. Usually that tends to be with the manager, who i don''t think is blameless in all this.