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Crabbycanary3

So, Brexit - who's for it, and who's against it?

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On balance, we get more benefit from membership than we would from leaving.
This includes freedom of movement, and economic and business benefits.  Our farming community has done well from EU subsidies and support.
The European government is a typical right wing newspaper "bogeyman" - largely unseen and intangible, so an easy enemy to pick a fight with and one who has (or is given) no voice in return.  Even now the "fear" card is being played by both sides which makes it a difficult debate to pick the facts out of.  I would much rather campaigns were fought in terms of opportunities from change, rather than fear of change, but this seems increasingly difficult to do post-Obama.
I am not blindly pro-European membership but the benefits certainly outweigh the drawbacks from my point of view.

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I would rather stay in a reformed EU, but it looks like there is very little chance of that happening. The vast majority of the "fear" seems to be being spread from the "In" camp, which I am extremely surprised about. Not how I saw it playing out.

Question for you Bor (or anyone) - when was the last time you voted for important political EU leaders, such as President of the EU Commission or President of the EU?

Do we consider democracy to be the minimum requirement of a legitimate government worldwide? If so, do you consider the EU to be democratic?

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I have been in favour of the EU historically but more recently my views have started to change.

The way that the migrant crises has been managed, the way we are grovelling to a corrupt and oppressive Turkish regime and offering fast track entry to the EU, the way the whole Euro process was mismanaged to give an advantage of the Germans and feck the rest, etc etc

Its looking to me as if the idea if the EU is terrific but as a union it is unable to actually work effectively to deal with any of the big issues it faces.

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When we first voted to join what was then called the Common Market the idea was for a single trading block and all the benefits that would bring. Now look where we are on the basis of that vote. We now have 27 countries, common currency, freedom of movement and a European Parliament.

My worry is where we will be in say 10 years time if we stay in. The Union is bound to become broader and deeper. More countries are wanting to join (is it another 6 including Turkey and Montenegro?). France and Germany in particular want closer union and will push for it. Once we''ve voted to stay the option to come out will be gone, possibly it will become irreversible.

Also there is the thorny issue of freedom of movement. On the face of it it all sounds well and good but how can we plan our public services if we don''t know how many people will be living here in the next few years. I''m not against immigration (my mother came to this country many years ago so I''m hardly going to be against it :-) ) but we must have control of who and how many come. People need schools, houses, GP''s etc, etc. These things take time to build and train to put into place. We don''t know if a half a million extra people are coming next year or none at all. How can you plan with that sort of uncertainty? No wonder we have so many issues with our Public Services and infrastructure.

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Those against neoliberalist economics and the corresponding power and influence of transnational corporations (especially banking/financial), ought to be in favour of leaving the EU.Over the last 40 years the traditional left has moved from an ''anti'' position to one of wanting to remain in the EU. This is despite the fact that remaining an EU member would be an implicit acceptance of the various rules, treaties and overall influence that compels our country to follow a neoliberalist economic agenda.Further deindustrialisation, removal of social safety nets and and a general selling off of our national infrastructure to the highest bidder would follow from the continuing neoliberalism. You''re looking at a return to a form of serfdom, feudalism and debt slavery of centuries past as our hard won rights and freedoms are further eroded.It''s no coincidence that the economic elite and their friends in

politics, big corporations and the media are almost to a man lobbying

for us to remain in the EU. There are exceptions, but the main players

are all in favour of continued EU membership, with a fear driven campaign against Brexit.Leaving the EU wouldn''t guarantee a reversal of the neoliberal economic agenda, but would be a necessary step. Sadly, in the UK all the main political parties are pro-EU, even the supposedly hard-left Labour Party under Corbyn.UKIP (who I don''t endorse) are the sole exception, but none of the main parties seem to accept that we would be able to renegotiate trade treaties on favourable terms as has been the case with other Non-EU European countries.(I''d recommend reading [url=http://www.globalresearch.ca/brexit-globalization-and-the-bankruptcy-of-the-globalist-left/5519403]this article[/url] for more info and background on the above).

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Out for me.I have lost interest in some faceless politician making decisions that affect my life. I read that Britain has tried to veto decisions made by Europe over 50 times, and has failed every single time. No one in Europe gives a fig about Britain, it all seems to be run to suit Germany. Germany who recently assumed control over the Dutch armed forces (seriously, given history, how the hell could that happen??) which is just one step away from a European defence force, which I have no interest in. NATO will still exist, and we can collaborate if and when we consider it in Britain''s interest.Trade? Sorry but I don''t buy the implication that trade will suffer, business is business, and if theres profit to be turned I doubt people will stop trading with us.EU farming subsidies? Well once we take control back of our territorial fishing waters, and revitalise our fishing industry then we can provide our own farming subsidies.I am British, not European.

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I think that ultimately everyone agrees that a union of countries for trading and economic purposes, and also immigration of workers (if controlled) is a good thing.

We don''t have that - we have a bunch of power-hungry politicians who want to set up as close to a global government as they can. Britain''s interests are certainly not their priority.

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The first time i had a chance to vote was the 1975 EU vote and i opted to stay in. As time has gone by the organisation has changed dramatically and is set to be an enlarged political entity which is already too big and will in the next decade include Turkey, Ukraine, Serbia, Albania etc etc. It is a disaster in more ways than one. I am definitely for out although i think the high profile interventions and scare stories will see sufficient numbers frightened enough to see that we stay in. Like the Scottish referendum though this will NOT be a once in a life time event and the topic will be revisited at some stage in the future

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Booooo EU, boooooo.
[IMG]http://38.media.tumblr.com/423199b082aead3f0d5b0bd9825d976b/tumblr_inline_mvv90fWBnr1razod5.png[/IMG]

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The following remark from a man telling us that we need out, someone who has no idea of his own country geography

"Over the last 15 months, we’ve travelled to every corner of the United States. I’ve now been in 57 states? I think one left to go."

Usually heralded for his oratory skills, it''s not easy to brush off this monumental blunder by Barack Obama.

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Nobody wins

It''s going to be tight either way and either "49/51" type result will create market uncertainty.

If only we could pick and choose what elements of the EU we belong to. Sooooooo much waste but some good stuff in there.

I''m still undecided.

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[quote user="Buh"]Nobody wins

It''s going to be tight either way and either "49/51" type result will create market uncertainty.

If only we could pick and choose what elements of the EU we belong to. Sooooooo much waste but some good stuff in there.

I''m still undecided.[/quote]I agree, if reforms could be pushed through that mean we actually have a voice in Europe, I''d be all for it.But those reforms simply aren''t going to happen.

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It will be like Scotland I think. Result to stay in Europe but will be tight enough that people will continue to bang on about it and demand another referendum.

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[quote user="Buh"]It will be like Scotland I think. Result to stay in Europe but will be tight enough that people will continue to bang on about it and demand another referendum.[/quote]People don''t like change unfortunately. And they don''t trust politicians.And there is not one single person with any actual facts about what will happen if we leave, as a lot of it is largely unknown.But I believe that there are enough tangible reasons to take the risk.The ironic thing about the Scottish vote was that so many financial projections were made based on North Sea oil production. If Scotland voted to leave they would likely be close to financial collapse right now.

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In economic terms it is a German run operation which has allowed their fantastic industrial muscle to flourish , no one in the EU can compete with their production. I could partly live with that if it were not for the uncontrolled free movement which was not a problem until the EU expanded East, which will get worse. There are many benefits of immigration, most of whom go on to integrate and make valuable contributions but the levels of 300 000 to 400 000 a year half from the EU is not sustainable and places to much strain on all fabrics of our society. Get it down to 100 000 a year and we are fine but that is not going to happen. There would be winners and losers if we exited, some would lose their jobs over time but others would flourish. It is a complicated hot potch and most will go with vested self interest at the end of the day

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I am bordering on the out side but still have not really made up my mind as I think a great number of people have also yet to do. It is frustrating that it seems a more internal political argument than a reasoned debate on the pros and sons. I know its a crass thing to say and totally to the right, but did we not defend ourselves from being ruled by the Germans. Having said that there has to be an amount of benefit in our trading within the bloc.

Really don''t know, but my feeling is the remain camp will win and quite comfortably IMO.

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[quote user="Ian"]I would rather stay in a reformed EU, but it looks like there is very little chance of that happening. The vast majority of the "fear" seems to be being spread from the "In" camp, which I am extremely surprised about. Not how I saw it playing out.

Question for you Bor (or anyone) - when was the last time you voted for important political EU leaders, such as President of the EU Commission or President of the EU?

Do we consider democracy to be the minimum requirement of a legitimate government worldwide? If so, do you consider the EU to be democratic?[/quote]
When was the last time you voted for a Prime Minister?

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Increasingly Out having been In for years. The lack of basic information is still critical , and very hard to find. The fact that the changes Cameron "achieved" have yet to be ratified makes it even more difficult.

East Anglia benefits from the CAP subsidies and in turn the money flowing into the economy. But simply not paying Europe and paying the same subsidy level would leave is net better off?

There is also the point in time issue. Morty mentioned the Scottish campaign. I recall Salmond taking issue with Darling on the projected NSO revenues saying they were TOO LOW!. So what is true today (possibly) can change dramatically. Will we have to join the Euro if we stay in? I think this would be a game changer. Linking our economy to Greece would have been suicidal. and now, possibly Turkey?

Frankly I''m none the wiser....

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If not, please let me know where I can get my membership form for the European Council/Commission?

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£50M a day we send over ''there''. How much do we get back? Net gain/loss.

We need info from both sides, with enough time for the opposition to counter the ''facts''

There is not a 100% guarantee of what will happen, if we stay, or go. Like has been said, it''s going to be a percentage decision.

The word on the street (not quantified btw) is that the majority of older generation ( e.g most who have known pre CM times) will definitely vote and , that will be for exit, and the majority of under 35s are nervous about leaving and would probably want to stay in, but are not looking (bothered?) to cast their vote.

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I''m in the out camp. The idea that we have more say by staying sounds good but as the last 70 times we have voted against a proposal the proposal has been carried shows that we have little or no effective voice. If we vote to stay in expect our so called reforms to be diluted or kicked into the long grass. If we stay in why should hey change anything? What would we do?, leave?

Mind you, if we had politicians with some gonads we could do as Austria have. Build a fence to protect their borders and ignore their Shengan Area commitments. Just say no, but no our pathetic lot will fall over themselves to implement every directive that screws up our way of life.

This is a once only opportunity to regain our nation from the unelected panjandrums of the Brussels elite. To the barricades, brothers and sisters!!!

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[quote user="Crabbycanary3"]Also been told that you have to REGISTER to vote btw?[/quote]Only if you''re not previously registered.http://www.aboutmyvote.co.uk/upcoming-elections-and-referendums/eu-referendumAnyone who was already registered to vote (or recently registered)

before the 18 April deadline for the elections taking place across the

UK on 5 May will also be registered to vote at the EU Referendum and

will be able to cast their vote. You do not need to re-register.

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[quote user="Buh"]Nobody wins

It''s going to be tight either way and either "49/51" type result will create market uncertainty.

If only we could pick and choose what elements of the EU we belong to. Sooooooo much waste but some good stuff in there.

I''m still undecided.[/quote]I''m also undecided. However I''m not sure it will be close.Unless you''re very passionate about it either way, I think it''s human nature for most people to vote for the devil they know.Unfortunately it''s so hard to get clear facts and reasoned debate on the issue - something I think will hurt both sides, as it may lead to apathy - meaning a low voter turnout.

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Definitely out for me.

A couple of years ago I would never have dreamed of us leaving but the whole EU project is showing worrying signs of falling apart. There is growing anti-EU sentiment amongst voters across the continent which is evidenced by the recent Dutch vote and the rise of far-right groups in France and Austria. The German backlash to their immigration policy is still to come I believe.

My position hardened during the ''renegotiation'' process which was cringeworthy to watch unfold. The outcome is that the political powers are trying desperately to sell us the idea that somehow this renegotiation is an improvement on what we previously had.

In my opinion the ''improved'' terms of remaining in will leave us in an even worse position. Always on the periphery, made to believe that we have influence but actually having none at all whilst contributing a small fortune in exchange for the privilege of complying with rules made up by unelected individuals.

A much better choice to the electorate would have been all-in or out. All-in being fully signed up to everything including the Euro. Only then would we really have any influence in EU-wide decision making.

David Cameron has staked his future on us staying in, which in my view is unhelpful to the debate. We should be talking about what is best for Britain rather than David Cameron and his chums. This from someone who actually voted for him. His con-man tactics aimed at purely self-preservation has lowered my estimation of him.

The in campaign is well documented as being based on scaremongering but the biggest fear for me is that we will become a second-class citizen in an increasingly Franco-German run EU in future.

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