gazzathegreat

DGC - you may be right in relation to some supporters, but not all. The board are ENTIRELY culpable, to blame, however you want to put it. They make the appointments, they determine the budget, they secure investment (or not), they sanction everything the manager does re transfers in and out. They are in charge and therefore they are responsible. I don''t blame Gunn at all for taking on the job. I think he is ill advised to take on a job he''s had next to no training for, but he loves the club and wanted to do his best to help. IF he wishes to be a manager for the rest of his career he would have done better to move away and take on a lower league club for three years or so, before coming back here or finding out it was not for him. The board appointed him for one reason only, to save their own skins. All this talk of community club is to get the fans back on side, to ensure they have enough money coming in to continue paying the debt repayments. To buy a bit of time while Keith Harris searches for a mythical person willing to pay a fortune for a club whose status declines every season, but it still for sale at a very high price. Slip off the hook? Let''s hope not, but I agree it will be a tough and long battle before everyone sees the light.

Badger - of course it''s unlikely, which is why I was asking Cam if he had any information as to the exact brief Keith Harris was given once appointed by the board. In an ideal world Delia and Michael could step down from the board and their shares be allocated to either the present Trust or another body, and then suitably qualified people brought in to sit on the board and work with Foulger/whoever is appointed subsequently. Don''t get me wrong, it''s a shot in the dark, or maybe a temporary step to a new owner entirely, but something at least to consider. Something or someone has to dilute/buy out/ the majority shareholding that they have. IF they could contribute to that voluntarily (if they can''t find a buyer), then so be it, for now. It would be a step in the right direction. Remain as we are, even with new people brought in, under the current make up, 66% of shares means everything happens to Delia''s tune. And going on what''s happened in the past 13 years, this has to end.

Thanks for your reply LQ, if the Trust were to achieve their aim of a fan on the board, how would this be done? Would it be someone from the Trust itself, or would the position be advertised as such, rather like a job? What criteria or qualifications would the candidate have to possess? Interesting - but at present surely in the infant stages. IF and when this was achieved, what sort of mandate would the successful candidate work to? I am sure the handing over of the shares could work. The present terms were negotiated, so what stands in the way of anything changing? IF the will is there to make way for a better run club, and a more democratic board, then as far as I can see it, it''s entirely down to Delia and MWJ. They are responsible for the present set up and therefore can begin to make changes. Loans and terms can be changed. Their percentage holding was built up, so it can be scaled down. Do they wish this course of action to be taken? Now there''s the question. At the moment, who would want to invest a substantial sum of money when someone else calls all the shots. Ideally we need additional investment and additional skills in many areas. We are told further changes will be made. IMO that needs to be substantial changes in the current board''s thinking more than anything else. They have presided over years of underachievement and disaster. They have sanctioned many equally disastrous appointments as team manager. Something has to change. While a couple hold the key to everything, my question is what will?

Found the post at last, thanks for the reply Cam. Of course there are wealthy people in Norfolk Cam, and I understand what you are saying re the interest in football, but don''t you find it strange that this area (Norfolk) seems bereft of footballing fanatics while other areas seem awash in them? Is it perhaps to do with our current status? And what about when we were in the Premiership - was any investment likely then, or was it simply not sought too much? Is Keith Harris looking for investment or a buyer? To me that''s a key issue. If Foulger finds an investor/consortium who are worth say £5 million what''s that going to change? Delia will still be in charge and how long would the new people hang around for? IF however they came in and Delia relinquished enough shares so she didn''t hold the majority any longer, than I would see that as a positive move and a step closer to a democratic board. Added to that someone who didn''t see her personality as a reason to invest. The sooner we separate the football club from her the better. While we are Delia''s Norwich City the only way is down. No, Delia does know what to do, and that''s get rid of enough of her shares to trigger someone else coming in to run the club who has enough about them to make a concerted difference. We don''t ever again want to hear the directors asking the floor at an AGM for ideas. What sort of confidence does that give us in the personnel running our club? Unless you see Delia as a celebrity/saviour, the answer is absolutely none. Still I will hope you have some information which will in time benefit our club. I really hope you are right on that score.

As a committee member I feel a bit responsible and wish to point out that yes, LQ, NCISA aims to represent its members and other fans. But of course in doing so, realise that 100% of people are never going to agree or feel represented on every issue. The recent meeting was called so those who wished to do so could have their say and communicate their thoughts on the state of the club. After the meeting a report detailing what was said was compiled and we, as a committee are meeting to agree on its final presentation before it''s sent to the club along with a formal request to meet with the directors. I have already mentioned this previously, but then threads come and go and it was probably missed by a lot of posters on here. No single body, including the club itself, truly represents every single person, that surely would point to some brainwashed state? Each of us have our own personal points of view, and if you feel NCISA doesn''t best represent them, then there is a simple answer, don''t join and don''t take part in anything to do with the Association. It''s your choice. Having said that we do have a large number of people who are not members who contact us to say they agree with the stance we are taking and as a result of the meeting a large number of people joined. As you sit on the SCG, I assume you portray yourself as representing the fanbase at large? Does the SCG truly reflect the average NCFC supporter or just a percentage. And the Trust, Capital Canaries etc? The media contact the Officers of NCISA for press statements and other information on a regular basis, as with any organisation.

Sorry LQ, this just doesn''t happen. At present both myself and my son are season ticket holders and live at the same address. As it''s near to both our birthdays we have both had the usual event package promotional stuff, we both receive raffle tickets for FONCY occasionally (as well as both getting regular emails, which is how I requested all news from the club should be directed to me). This all in addition to the annual ST mailings. I will call in again next week to the Ticket Office and ask again. What is the point in sending out the same stuff to the same family/group of friends unless they are required by law to do so (Data Protection)? It''s a waste of money and resources when those could be channelled into better use of time and money.

Lisa - it''s all very well trying to promote the idea of buying shares. I am sure I could, if I so wished, stroll into Barratt and Cooke and buy the required minimum. In fact I may still do so, depends on a number of factors for me and they don''t really involve me doing much more than either waiting for some action by the board to convince me the club is worth further investment or having a complete change of mind about my feelings towards those running the club. Which will come first I wonder? I would dearly love to do all I could to help the club move forwards, but to use a rather tired cliche, I have many old tee shirts with ample evidence of such. There are, I am sure, many investors around, not just in Norfolk, who would buy into NCFC, but it all depends on how they see the club progressing, doesn''t it? Even dedicated fans such as you and I? You have shares, I have shares, more than a few on here have shares, and what difference has it made to our fortunes, not a lot in recent times has it? While we have the same people on the board who are clueless and apathetic it really doesn''t matter who buys them. Without will and a complete change of heart by Delia, our club is not going anywhere but on the same road she''s already taken us down. Now some of us are happy to see the best in her, some are not. Admittedly if I won the lottery and could buy the 33,000 shares in one go I would do it, if only to provide a real voice for those who currently don''t have one. I am not sure who I would trust with the opportunity but seek someone out I would. But we can''t all survive on pipe dreams, we have to accept the situation for what it is, and it''s dire. According to the club they have been looking for investment for years, but we are all unsure of the terms of sale (unless someone knows better?). So where has it got them? A couple who came in, bought some shares and have now left due to disagreements over club policy - so we are led to believe. Does this alone encourage further investment or is it the huge 66% share holding of Delia and Michael which is seriously hindering investment? IF Delia and Michael were to place 30% of that 66% or so into the Trust (or another body set up to control them for the benefit of all fans) would it not be easier to sell any additional shares, as this would create a level playing field and introduce others who could have more of a say in how the club is run. I assume this is the aim of the Trust? I understand you are involved with them so perhaps you could clarify their position on this?

Completely agree ndhs - it was spelt out loud and clear in the renewal paperwork sent out, I suppose those who bought a season ticket for the first time or for some reason didn''t get the whole mailed package may not have been aware, but surely in the day and age of the internet and so on the club don''t need to send out letters to all of us. Maybe we could just call in or email (they email us constantly with offers etc all year round) us the necessary info. I don''t know if they are legally obliged to send out a printed document, perhaps they are. All our correspondence is sent out via a mailing house, this has been confirmed many times, I once asked if our family could only be sent one copy (at one time we were four season ticket holders under one roof), but they said no, due to data protection we all had to have a copy of whatever they chose to send. So I don''t know. If a letter doesn''t appear soon I will call in personally to find out what the delay is. I am sure nothing is amiss and they are hoping we forget we want to claim our rebate, but then I am too trusting!

The two are at the moment wrapped up with each other, not happily it seems, but both wishing to be free (or so some would have us believe). Would NCFC survive without Delia, of course we would, as would Delia without NCFC. We were once known more for our football (we were in the top division for a long period of time before she came along) and no doubt we will be NCFC again one day, not (calm down now, although it''s very difficult) Delia Smith''s Norwich City. That grates with me. Whatever I think of her, good or bad, it will always be NCFC for me, whoever is in charge. Certain sections of the media focus on her celebrity status. Does she welcome that? From the evidence so far, yes she does, at least in good times. Does NCFC revel in being Delia''s most loved hobby? Well, there are a number of self confessed Delia fans who do come along to Carrow Road because she''s there. She''s invested money, but has that really helped NCFC? We have debated this forever on here and of course many different views are held - the facts remain we are back where we were 50 years ago. Unless Delia completely changes her leadership style fairly soon, we will all soon be wishing for a parting of the ways - the status of NCFC is far more important than that of Delia Smith.

LQ - for your research purposes, my take on the rebate thing. It was offered with season ticket renewals last season, and the one before that, same thing if we were promoted, those renewing before the deadline would get a ticket for the Premiership at the same price! Amazing. So there were options and all laid out well in advance. The rebate thing did cross my mind when I renewed as by then I was expecting us to be relegated. It didn''t make up my mind, I would have renewed anyway, unless totally priced out of my particular comfort zone. Nevertheless I am more than willing to claim my rebate to show the club I am more than unhappy with their running of it. I have, for the last four years, sent the Chairman a letter at renewal time stating I am renewing my ST, but have on confidence in the board/running of the club. So there you are. I am more than happy to use my rebate money to make a point. I may spend it, I may even spend it on something which goes back into the club. But at the moment it''s a way of communicating my anger and disappointment with Delia and co. And that to me is a powerful weapon to use. I don''t apologise for the language used either. Something has to get them to see reality. This might just be the start.

Hi Cam, I will try and get back to it, very short on time at mo, having to do overtime at work and other stuff means less time on here!

Thanks CA, I do believe I added some comments over the weekend, but I think the thread may have been removed. At the moment several of us are away, so it''s difficult to get together to meet. Of course NCISA will be taking further action, but as you can imagine we can''t just rush into that. We have compiled a report from the meeting next week and will be pressing for a meeting with the directors. A committee meeting is to be held shortly, sadly as we have said many times, most of us work full time. We are also seeking to meet the Trust and other supporter groups to seek their views and thoughts on the present state of the club and the moves made by the board so far.

The day Martin O''Neill was lied to be Chase, causing him to walk away. That was the day I really stopped believing anything was possible for Norwich City. We have had ups and downs since then, not too many ups, but that was the start. I am sure some would go back further still. I was tempted to say when Walker left, but I still believed we would get through that one, until Chase started selling off the players. Still, I believed. No, it was Martin O''Neill for me, and what makes it worse is he''s gone on to prove what a great manager he would become and we lost out on that. IMO we have never recovered.

John Some great points made there, I however don''t share your view that the fanbase as a whole will unite, too many different factions all with their own theories, for now. It will take immense effort and probably only happen on the back of some radical (and I mean radical) change at the top of the club. Until there is change at Boardroom level (and that means for me, Delia and Michael stepping down) then we will merely drift/suffer as we have for a long time now. NCISA does recognise the discontent as you have indicated. After presenting our formal report to the board we will be seeking a meeting with them to discuss how fans are feeling and using our feedback from members and other concerned fans, indicating possible ways to improve the running of the club. I completely agree with your final paragraph John, it may take some time for those reluctant at the moment to say enough is enough, but when it comes to the crunch, we all have to ask ourselves just who do we support, the club, or Delia. It''s as simple as that.

Pete Can Lord Horn''s films be pinned at the top of the page please? We don''t want the PR dept to miss them.

Keep ''em coming Lord Horn!

Chops had it spot on with his recent signature from the Manic Street Preachers If you tolerate this (amended) the Fourth Division will be next.

Agree Barry, but what did you expect, the same old garbage as there was every time. Same old spin, same old fairy stories. Be careful what you wish for eh? Er no, I wished for you to go Mr Doncaster and you went. So, thank you very much, I am frankly absolutely delighted. No one could be worse than you. Goodbye and good riddance. Mello, a suitable picture please?

Nothing like £4 million LQ, and completely dependent on who we sell and how much for. I don''t suppose some of the culpable and guilty could donate could they? That includes you, Mr Doncaster. You are guilty for our plight, but hey, why not pin it on everyone else, including the fans claiming their rebate. I don''t expect to see anyone signed with any sort of pedigree or name at all. A couple of players from lower leagues with a bit of talent and potential, other than that we will be using the academy team and anyone who doesn''t get sold/their contracts paid off. Reality starting to bite, at least at Colney.

Lord Horn, perhaps we should send you our season ticket rebates - let''s have that played on the scoreboards before every home match. I am sure 10 or so of us can fund each match! Good stuff, though not enough of it, where were the players?

As someone said above, every issue that comes up only concludes in dividing the fans further. Some say we are all fans whatever our opinions. Some claim to be better fans than others by stating their long years of support, season ticket status, whatever. What is completely apparent to me though is the fear that unless someone can point out to Delia and Michael the error of their ways, and in good time, there is only one outcome for our club, and that''s continual decline - as witnessed in the past few years, with Delia at the helm. Some of us favour getting behind a large supporter group (NCISA) to enable us to have a voice, some advocate just getting behind the team (and would that include hoping that someone else does the dirty work for them?), some incredibly think that the board (that''s just 3 people folks) are making rational decisions based on good business practice. Some tell us that boycotting and protesting are the only ways to effect change. Some, yes incredibly, some still think NCFC is being run properly and won''t hear a word against Delia, who "saved us". Personally I feel we need change. Change not for its own sake, but for the benefit of the club, which we all support. Unfortunately change is not in Delia''s dictionary. She''s done very well out of NCFC and doesn''t want that to change. She may not have made money, but hey what a wonderful fairy story she''s written on the back of one football club, who once upon a time used to be known for playing good football, and not known for being Delia''s Norwich City and being in the third division. It will probably come as no surprise to many posters on here that I want to see change, and for that reason I joined NCISA, am on their committee and will do all I can to instigate change, not for the good of the majority shareholders or their cohorts, but for the good of the club. So we can all once again go and watch football and forget the politics of it all. A pipe dream, perhaps in some people''s eyes, but a damn site better than thinking Delia will put it right. IF you think that then you are a very patient person. Time for her to go and every avenue to exact that outcome has to be explored.

You are far too shrewd for the likes of us Old Shuck, take a bow. Personally I think you have summed up the last 13 years perfectly.

Good grief, well if he is, that''s my season ticket cut neatly into two and returned. Mind you, that old PR dept is getting rather crowded of late, no wonder most of them spend so much time on this messageboard. If the directors have learnt anything from the past three or four years, it should be to appoint properly qualified people, especially to jobs where they have to deal with the fans.

Okay then LQ, in your own words, the fall and demise of Norwich City Football Club. Be back later to check on your progress!

Thanks for your very considered reply Cam. Yes, I agree it would be almost impossible to gauge a "typical" city fan, but that''s using my judgement of many years of support and talking to many people over those years. 606 and the media in general have perhaps a different view and the call from the guy from Sheffield only perpetuates that idea. Messageboards are a relatively new idea, and if only used by a tiny proportion of any club''s fanbase this doesn''t necessarily prove that they are not representative. It just shows not every fan uses a computer. The NCISA meeting proved a case in point. Hundreds there and almost certainly few who post on messageboards, yet were concerned enough to turn up and either speak or listen to the points raised. However, just purely judging this on people I know, I can safely say most of them don''t post on messageboards, for various reasons. That still classes them as fans (and believe me a fair few of them are very entrenched in their views and would make Smudger look like Delia''s PR man), they just don''t particularly want to spend hours on a computer. You make an excellent point about the Delia celebrity thing. What is it with people who feel the need to follow a bright light and are subsequently blinded by it? It''s not just Delia is it? Most red tops are crammed full of content re celebrities. Yes, we have seen the Delia supporters (she packs the entire front row at the AGM with them). And more. Most of them couldn''t name more than three players and certainly know nothing of the club pre Delia. Your further analogy re fans then goes on to describe possibly the biggest group of all. The apathetic fan - oh well that''s just football (unless you are from Burnley, Preston, Sheff Utd etc). Of course there are plenty of them and you can bet they don''t get too excited about anything in life. Each to their own. I have no real issue with Tweed, or Cullum or anyone else who have been used to bang points home. My issues are firmly with those who have run our club into the ground and still carry on in their own sweet way thinking it will a) all be okay because we are fans after all and b) no one is around to make it better anyway. I don''t believe that for a moment. IF, as Doncaster was fond of saying, plenty of clubs (doing better than us) had wealthy benefactors it begs the question, why don''t we? Perhaps it really is time to look closely at all of this. Why not? I wonder what the terms and conditions are - once you pass the Fit for Norfolk test? And as for Keith Harris, what exactly is his brief? Is it investment, any as long as it''s in six figures, investment of any kind or potential buyers. Now that I would like to hear about. Any chance of some pointers Cam?