grabban or jerome connundrum

[morty 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]And thats what you judge his game on?

"He dunt score no ghouls"

I''ll judge him on a goal/chance ratio......and critically his ability to score at crucial moments in games...which as I mentioned earlier, he has shown his failings earlier in the season during our slump from 1st to 11th when our previous manager picked him ahead of Hooper for at least a month too long.

reckon I''ve been watching this game long enough to recognise and good striker.....and I dont think he is one....apologies if that offends you.[/quote]Doesn''t offend me in the slightest, you crack on fella.You have every right to an opinion, and I also have a right to consider it bobbins.You carry on with your pit of misery, I shall personally be happy for the guy having a good game.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

I dont know why youve chosen to introduce this "why cant you just be happy we''ve won?" element to this thread?

.It''s title is Grabban and Jerome conundrum....and thats what I''m discussing , the merits or otherwise of these two. In my opinion Jerome is better.

[morty 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]I dont know why youve chosen to introduce this "why cant you just be happy we''ve won?" element to this thread?

.It''s title is Grabban and Jerome conundrum....and thats what I''m discussing , the merits or otherwise of these two. In my opinion Jerome is better.[/quote]Because I find your opinion that he had a poor game yesterday puzzling, and it sounds like someone desperately clutching for a negative.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

when comparing 2 strikers you have to also compare their "negative" aspects ,aswell as their positives......Grabban has more negatives to his game than Jerome''s and certainly less postives....I guess thats how come to a conclusion in a conundrum?

I maintain that he was poor yesterday and also maintain that against better opposition could cost us points.

I''m prepared to take Alex Neil''s ,Jerome/hamstring line at face value but I''ll be watching with some slight concern over the next few games.

[morty 0]

Grabban did not have a poor game yesterday.

[Yellow Wal 314]

GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary wrote the following post at 08/02/2015 11:00 AM:

when comparing 2 strikers you have to also compare their "negative" aspects ,aswell as their positives......Grabban has more negatives to his game than Jerome''s and certainly less postives....I guess thats how come to a conclusion in a conundrum?

Jerome is the better finisher of the two and is stronger in the air but Grabban''s movement, pace and awareness is far better than Jerome''s.

It depends upon the system that is being played to which is better for the team.

The way AN seems to want to play the game would suggest that Grabban will bring more out of Hooper and others in the team and will benefit those around him more than Jerome.

This is why he had a good game yesterday!

[Highland Canary 76]

Jerome is a better finisher than Grabban. He should therefore start in front of him. You can only beat what''s in front of you - Blackpool look a sorry side - but we did indeed dispatch them with aplomb. Let''s hope we continue to press for a lottery place.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="morty"]Grabban did not have a poor game yesterday.[/quote]This.When comparing them like for like Jerome edges it on goals scored - at the moment. However, you would expect that of a player who has played all of his career in the top two divisions when comparing him with one that has played most of his in the lower two leagues of the professional tiers.However what I will say I really don''t like is the comparison with Simeon Jackson. Now, I didn''t disslike Jackson, and he gave us an outlet in pace, but he wasn''t good enough for the Championship really, let alone the Prem. He just didn''t have the composure for this level of football. He appeared to be like a rabit in headlights in situations where you need quick, assertive decision making.For me, Grabban is more than capable in that regard. If anything, yesterday he was guilty of trying to create more goals than take on the shot himself. He needs to be a little bit more ruthless. He scored 20+ goals in this league last season, Jackson was never capable of that.Grabban is more than good enough for us, and yesterday, in my eyes, was every bit as important as Hooper. Who scored two from open play and a third from a penalty well earned by Grabban.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]Jerome is the better finisher of the two and is stronger in the air but Grabban''s movement, pace and awareness is far better than Jerome''s.

It depends upon the system that is being played to which is better for the team.

The way AN seems to want to play the game would suggest that Grabban will bring more out of Hooper and others in the team and will benefit those around him more than Jerome.

This is why he had a good game yesterday![/quote]I also agree with this.Hooper feeds differently off the pair. With Jerome he almost wrestles the defence physically and Hooper picks up off the pieces. With Grabban, as seen yesterday, he stretches a defence with his pace and movement and Hooper feeds off the space that provides.It''s too early to suggest that this is the case for certain but it is possible to suggest at least that if you play Jerome and Hooper - Jerome will score more. If you play Grabban and Hooper, Hooper will score more. At least that is how it seems at the moment. Overall I don''t care.If Grabban plays like he did yesterday but only ends up with say, 15 goals this season, but is involved in games where his selfless attitude and work rate results in wins and goals for others, I have no problem. I''d rather we had him last season instead of the likes of Elmander or maybe even RVW. That kind of running and work rate would have created us more chances.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="Highland Canary"]Jerome is a better finisher than Grabban. He should therefore start in front of him. You can only beat what''s in front of you - Blackpool look a sorry side - but we did indeed dispatch them with aplomb. Let''s hope we continue to press for a lottery place.[/quote]That''s too literal I think.Going on yesterdays performance and goals to appearance ratios you have to think a bit deeper.Grabban 7 in 26Hooper 9 in 17 (1.89 goals per appearance)Jerome 13 in 22 (1.69 goals per appearance)Now what has this to do with Grabban? Well if you consider that Hooper is actually the best finisher at the club you then have to consider which strike partnership is going to be more prolific.Will Hooper score more with Jerome than Grabban? Will the Hooper/Jerome partnership lead to more goals than the Hooper/Grabban partnership? Would playing Grabban and Jerome lead to more goals?You see, it is all about the combinations that work best, not just about who has a better scoring record. Which is better for the team as a whole?

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

I think the comparison with Simeon Jackson is very accurate.

Both erratic ,instinctive strikers who faltered when given time to think, both with suspect chance/goal ratios and both who would score in short bursts of form.

Unfortunately given the situation we''re in ,we simply cannot afford strikers with that degree of uncertainty about their game.

There are huge games coming up where we/Grabban may only get a few chances coming our way and failure to take them could result in us being 6 pts and rising outside the playoffs.

Biggest case in point was Grabban''s last minute one on one vs Brentford......if he scores that ,we have one more point and just as critically Brentford have 2 less.

I''m not confident about him in a scoring situation like that and come to think of it I don''t know what situation I would be confident that he''d score in?

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

If this is a ''conundrum'' then it''s a nice conundrum to have. It''s the same sort of conundrum that Mourinho has when he has to decide whether he plays Oscar, Remy, Drogba,Cuadrado or Hazard. Or Pellegrini has whether he plays Negredo/Silva or has to make do with Dzeko, Jovetic and Aguero.The more options we have the better. I thought Grabban was superb yesterday, and would have no problem if he starts at the Valley. If Jerome is not 100% fit, then it makes no sense at all pitching him in  if we don''t have to. He will  be needed a lot between now and May.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary"]I think the comparison with Simeon Jackson is very accurate. [/quote]Then you need to apply for a role in Specsavers next advertising campaign.If you can''t see the difference between a player who has struggled at every level since leaving Gillingham in League One. So much so that at the age of 27, supposedly in his prime, he is back in League 1 with Coventry City.Jackson was purely a pace merchant. He gave his best, and is a sound chap, but he never really gave anything else to the team. He was too slight to give any strength, and he didn''t have what people refer to as the footballing brain, to playmake.If you saw the game yesterday, you''d have taken notice of Grabban''s ability to run the chanels and put in decent crosses. To hold up the ball and bring other players into the game. To know when to beat players for pace, to be strong and hold players off the ball well. At times yesterday he was even Holt-esque, charging down balls he had no right to and winning them - either with his pace and keeping the ball ''alive'' or by challenging opposition players and easing them off the ball.As others have said, if he had scored one, two or even three goals it would not have been unfair. On any other day he would have taken the penalty. On another day the keeper would not have tipped his effort onto the bar. He''d have scored two and you would have been grasping at air.The fact that you give him absolutely no respect or credit for the attributes he has to his game, makes you a very poor judge of a player.For me, Simeon Jackson, was not much better than the likes of MacDonald. Just a bit more experienced and a bit quicker.

[morty 0]

Then you need to apply for a role in Specsavers next advertising campaign.[:D]

[Highland Canary 76]

Agree with that Reggie. If Jerome is not fully fit we should go with Grabban. Conversely, if Jerome is fit he should start. Very disappointed to be missing Charlton - should be a cracker.

[Yorkshire Canary 118]

Grabban had a very good game but if fully fit Jerome and Hooper get first nod for me. Very nice having Grabbans quality to cover though

[smooth 114]

Highland is right in my eyes and I agree with gjl.

He does remind of a Jackson who was adored for his effort, he had a poor conversion record but of course still scored goals as grabban does.

Grabban is great off the bench when the team is fully fit he is currently our number 3

If we went up, would he be a starter in the prem? For me no, in this division while jerome and hooper are here he is a great number 3. It will all depend if he can learn and develop year on year. If we go up then his janes will be limited as we will need to upgrade our striking options.

If we stay in this league he is a good championship forward, I just hope he can work on his conversion rate. When has a chane I do expect him not to score... Hooper I expect to score, jerome is a little more clinical than grabban. Premiership and top league experience is so important as we look to make that step up.

Otherwise we are looking at capable championship players, I am not and hope the club so not settle for that as some of our fans do

[GJP 79]

To say Grabban was poor yesterday is just wrong. And you can''t hide behind being entitled to your opinion. It''s just wrong. Simple as that.

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

thats the point though isn''t it Chicken?

You can say that "if circumstances were different" or "on any other given day" he would have scored this or would have scored that.....the fact is he didnt ,either yesterday or or "any other given day" since last September barring 1 goal when we were beating Millwall 5-1.

As I''ve said , our margin for error from here on in is minimal, even to just secure a playoff place.

You can call him unlucky or you can question his ability in front of goal, either way he''s a risk.

As soon as Jerome if fully fit (and again I''m taking Alex Neil''s comments at face value for now), he MUST come straight back in.

Derby wouldnt dream of leaving Chris Martin out of their team at this stage of the season, and nor equally should we not be playing our top scorer if/when fully fit.

[morty 0]

[quote user="GJP"]To say Grabban was poor yesterday is just wrong. And you can''t hide behind being entitled to your opinion. It''s just wrong. Simple as that.[/quote][Y]

[The Bristol Nest 521]

I''m with Reggie. Grabban was great yesterday, worked really hard and set up a platform for a Hooper hatrick. Great win. If you were Blackpool, would you want to face see Jerome coming off the bench? Scary.

Remember playing the Doc up front and Russell? Good conundrum to contemplate imo.

[chicken 0]

[quote user="smooth"]Highland is right in my eyes and I agree with gjl.

He does remind of a Jackson who was adored for his effort, he had a poor conversion record but of course still scored goals as grabban does.[/quote]I''ve decided to start up an agency, can I have your names and numbers please. If Specsavers turn us down I''ll try vision express or one of those bionic eye companies that will make you see in ways you never did before.Sorry - but if you are likening a player who can win a header and push a player off the ball to Simeon Jackson you really need to check your prescription.Jackson has not got the ability in his game, to influence it in the way that Grabban did yesterday. Grabban is a far superior player, hence him having scored 20+ goals last season and Jackson being released from his contract in Germany to sign for Millwall who then released him as well.We have probably the best striking department at the club since I don''t know when. In our last promotion from the Championship we had Holt, Martin and Jackson as our primary strikers with Hoolahan chipping in with goals as well.Like for like I would say that Jerome and Holt would go toe to toe, but Grabban and Hooper are both a cut above where Martin was back then and both leave Jackson behind by a long long stretch.I can''t believe the disservice that people are giving to Grabban despite a highlight real that doesn''t lie and a game yesterday where Grabban was brilliant.

[smooth 114]

He is working hard but so do many players in the past for NcFC

When you are in certain positions ou need to do things to be rightly remembered.

Huckerby, Gordon were wizards on the wings

Earnie, Ashton, holt clinical in front of goal

I think grabban is fine for now, he will start against charlton I would not put money on him scoring and that after 70 mins jerome would come on and I would be tempted to start with jerome against wolves.

Best players and best team formation is needed.

As I said I expect jerome to score a few blinders ala brentford and Bournemouth. That is what you need in some games. In fact in the prem it usually comes down to that. Great points made earlier that in critical games and critical chances you want to put the game away or get that 1-0. Grabban has missed a number of those chances as right now we cannot afford any more slip ups.

When that chance comes it has to be converted, we have put ourselves in this position and every player has to perform each and every game. No no shows or poor draws. Each game we need to step it up and if it is not working change it as wins and 3 points each game is what we need.

We certainly do not want to limp into the play offs, webers momentum and if we were to catch 1 or 2nd, very unlikely, then we cannot afford to waste chances or lack of concentration at the back

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 1,821]

people arent comparing Grabban to the Simeon Jackson of today, more the one who was here in the Championship promotion season?

[smooth 114]

Chicken it is not about the attributes it is about the faith that so many fans I had.

Jackson was poor in our championship winning campaign. If you look at my posts regarding him he had one good run, burnley at home through to Pompey that season.

In a game at the emirates he had a one on one and fluffed the chance pulling his shot well wide. When Morison came on I said he would convert a similar hance and he did.

When Jackson moved, much like fox many said oh they will go to high end champ teams. They didn''t because they were never that great. They never developed.

From the reports from Bournemouth fans they said that grabban needs 4 chances to score 1... I think that is the same as this season and that his confidence is very fragile. Again I think I can say he has shown that.

So for me he hasn''t moved on or proven that he has got better in a year. He does score but should score more.

He is a great number 3 but jerome is more clinical in this division and is a better striker. Now when jerome was up against us I never thought he would score, so again when we go up we wed an upgrade in striker position but I believe jerome is a better striker.

Grabban did a good job yesterday but credit for hooper to being on the right place to CONVERT and get us the three points.

I so not think grabban would have take. The first and the secpnd never would have been lost under his feet.

Nothing against him he just isn''t as good as hooper or jerome.

[HazzaJet 259]

I felt Grabban had a good start to the season, then went off form, with Jerome being our main goalscorer. With the Grabban/Jerome, Lafferty/Jerome, and Grabban/Lafferty strike partnerships not working Hooper was tried with Jerome as soon as he recovered from injury, which has been a success.

I''ve watched the highlights and I felt that Grabban had a great game yesterday and was unlucky not to get on the scoresheet. I have to say that I would probably start Hooper and rotate Grabban and Jerome (one starting, one warming the bench)

[chicken 0]

[quote user="smooth"]He is working hard but so do many players in the past for NcFC[/quote]Jackson was ''hardworking'' in the same was Andy Hughes was. Lots of huff an puff but really, in terms of technically and ability wise, both were quite limited players. And both, found their levels, to be League One. And this is where your own comparison is pretty cack.The highlights of yesterdays game prove it. The second goal. Watch it very carefully and watch it more than once. Grabban makes a run - not to score a goal, but to create a chance for the team to score. A diagonal run. He drags a player centrally to out wide. A clever little backheel then effectively opens up the space he has just created and allows us to play into that space. Some nice intricate play between Hoolahan and Hooper then ends with the goal. The Blackpool players had to react quickly and didn''t. Because that one quick run disrupted them, and the quick thinking backheel exposed them. You would never see such play from Jackson as he just wasn''t capable of it.

[quote user="smooth"]When you are in certain positions ou need to do things to be rightly remembered.

Huckerby, Gordon were wizards on the wings

Earnie, Ashton, holt clinical in front of goal[/quote]The funny thing about Huckerby was that he was brought in to be a striker, after the premier league campaign it was clear that he wasn''t prolific enough there and was better suited to the wing.And out of the three players you say are remembered for being clinical, I''d say only Ashton is remembered primarily for that. I''m not sure Earnshaw is remembered that favourably at all. And Holt, is remembered more for his playing style than anything else. And as I have said, elements of which Grabban displayed yesterday in his constant harrying and pressing of opposition players. It was very noticable when he came off as our tempo and pressing dropped considerably.[quote user="smooth"]Grabban has missed a number of those chances as right now we cannot afford any more slip ups.

When that chance comes it has to be converted, we have put ourselves in this position and every player has to perform each and every game. No no shows or poor draws. Each game we need to step it up and if it is not working change it as wins and 3 points each game is what we need.

We certainly do not want to limp into the play offs, webers momentum and if we were to catch 1 or 2nd, very unlikely, then we cannot afford to waste chances or lack of concentration at the back[/quote]And that is where the lack of knowledge comes through.When picking a team, you have to look at more than what works like for like. You have to look at partnerships and then how those partnerships work within the team.Yesterday there was a lot of really nice movement, natural swapping of positions as play dictated. Redmond popping up left and central depending where Grabban and other players had made runs to retain posession etc.As I have said elsewhere, I would very much like to see what the stats actually indicate in terms of the front two partnerships in terms of goals scored and also win ratios. The very basic stats at the moment suggest Hooper is the most clinical striker - you then have to look at who he is more likely to score playing along side. And if that equates to a better win ratio.

[Phillip J Fry 0]

Another factor that plays in Grabbans favour is the quality of his pressing. Alex Neil appears to be a manager who wants his teams to press high up the pitch, so the striker plays a vital role in beginning the high press as well as encouraging other members of his team to follow his example. Grabban did this excellently yesterday, he pressed aggressively and energetically and the rest of the team followed his lead. If Grabban pressed, then two or three players would follow him and the whole team would shift up in response, if Grabban sat, the team would maintain their shape and allow the opposition to have the ball.

This, alongside his excellent movement in behind that forced the Blackpool defensive line back and helped create space inbetween the Blackpool defence and midfield for players like Hooper, Hoolahan, Redmond and Howson (arriving late) to operate in, was crucial in the overall performance of the Norwich team.

He may not score as many as Jerome but he may be the better fit for the team tactically. 

[smooth 114]

Chicken I agree with your comments with Jackson... Exactly my point. We have seen plenty of them, those that huff and puff but quality is lacking or they never improved. But many a norwich fan liked them. For me quality is more important.

In regard to earnie he should be looked at fondly his goals were vital while here and his signing saved the board as the summer transfer fiasco was appalling providing a team around Ashton and HUckerby with Carl Robinson, Jason Jarrett, Andy Hughes.

I remember holty''s scoring record, after the first season in the prem he huffed and puffed. He did stay too long his new contract that came the summer of Lamberts departure was one too many but again we were an club with plenty to lose if both left. Holt was a great scorer in those seasons before not just his style.

HUckerby, we all knew what type of striker he was, and then playing naturally on the left so although he came in as a ''striker'' I think we all knew he was a forward playing slightly behind a main striker and ghosting out to the left.

I did see grabbans run and yes it is very good, of course it is. I never said it wasn''t. I did say that he would have got the ball stuck under his feet unlike hooper with the chance. I still think with the first he would of missed it too.

But it is all about opinions, I take what I have seen and what the Bournemouth fans said when he left and he has shown it. I hope he improves but if we go up then for me we need new strikers if not he will stay as a big part.

I certainly don''t consider him a striker of bad proportions, Keith Scott, Chris brown... If only mike Sharon had scored the goals he did at Man City here but he didn''t... You need to score to keep yourself in the team and earn a contract if you are a striker..

He will score more this season, but I would rather Jerome was in the starting line up when fully fit, surely that is not a problem. I believe jerome will score more.

In regard to partnerships, it is one game. We are missing partnerships throughout the team let alone centre forward. Yes movement was good, but can that happen every game against teams with a better record in this division. Jerome and hooper have worked well, hoolahan and hooper have a great understanding.

The players have to perform in every game there is no excuse whichever players are on the field. Missing chances can cost us and have already this season.

For me and a few other people jerome is the answer, others say grabban It does not matter as AN will pick the team but if one is not scoring goals or working he must be prepared to change it. This season I have seen jerome score more goals and score more important goals that have changed the game. Grabban''s goals have been deflected or required a few bites of the cherry. He huffs and puffs which is good if we win but he needs to start scoring, but if the team had not won would we be saying he should start if jerome is fit at Charlton.

For me he starts and jerome is ready to come on from the bench, we need to win the game and then beat Wolves and if grabban does not score against charlton and the system struggles then I would expect grabban to be replaced by a fully fit jerome next Saturday.

Anyway let''s look forward to charlton and a game we have to win to keep up and begin to move up the positions in the table.

[lappinitup 629]

Did you actually watch the game yesterday smooth?