Where We Are?

[Farkes The Herald Angels 0]

This question is predicated on the basis of where each individual supporter wants us to be and the manner in which we each want to see us achieving our preferred aims.

Some posters want entertainment first and are frustrated by what they see as the constipated manner in which the team has been playing since the beginning of last season.

Others point to poor results and the elongated time they see being given to a new group of players to blend and provide what all of us - presumably - would like to witness. Winning in an attractive manner.

These two extremes seem to embrace the sentiments expressed by those who are pro and con what is currently underway at our beloved club.

In my mind it comes down to an argument between the end results and the means of getting there.

Apart from the unbeaten 10 games last year we have had a very poor set of results over the last 12 months. That doesn''t mean we should ignore that excellent period, but the overall pattern of results does not inspire optimism if one looks at what has been produced before and after, this season included.

Then if one looks at the manner in which the results - good or bad - have been achieved, I don''t think any of us would be able to make a strong case for the fact that things have been entertaining. Mostly it;s been dirge.

Then we come to this season specifically: a lot of new players who apparently are more likely to keep us in this division. The results suggest that nothing much has changed, but the counter argument is that so many new players need time to blend and work together positively as a unit.

And these counter propositions seem to shape the debates - and occasionally vitriolic snipes - on this board.

In the end, the answer to all of this ends up in the cradle of what each of us wants and expects. And we all have different expectations.

I read posts from those who make a laudible case for how we need to survive in this league and how that survival is imperative to our growth as a club.In general these seem to be the pragmatists who look at ''progress'' and a sustained stay in the PL as paramount.

I see many other posts that bemoan the lack of flair that some of us were fed on in the days of McDougall, Boyer, Fleck, Gordon, Fox and more recently Huckerby, and the managers that gave us a reputation for being ''the footballing team'' - i.e. that we played the game in the way supporters wanted to see their team playing. They seem less interested in the process that enables us to become a fixture of this enviably rich league and yearn for entertainment.

And in the end there is no right and wrong. For some, being in the Premier League is the be all and end all. We stayed up last year and we now have the wealth to become serious competitors in this competition. We have done away with the debt and we don''t have to worry about administration. We can even gloat over Ipswich who are mired in financial and performance-related pains.

But, in the end it''s personal. what do each of us want to experience each week and at the end of the season.

And from my personal viewpoint I don''t like where we are. Do I want to be back to the 1-7 Colchester days? Of course not. But, my personal preference is to be enthralled and entertained each week. In this regard I am continuously left feeling short-changed.

Of course I don''t want to be back to playing Doncaster and Bournemouth next year, but I would rather see a great game where we played out of our skins against such teams than retreating into an acceptance of mediocrity against the elite of this division.

This is not an argument to pursuade those who feel that we need a considered and sensible strategy to stay in The Premier League that they are wrong. It''s without doubt the place to be for continued financial wellbeing.

But, my, it''s been difficult to accept when I have watched each week over the last 12 months.

If staying in The PL means more of this then I''ll happily opt for a Saturday spent doing something more enjoyable

[Chunky Norwich 0]

I''ll admit I only read about a third of that but my humble two-pence worth is that football - at the end of the day - is an entertainment business. Pundits bang on about it being a results business and for the Man Utds and Chelseas of the world it is; ''six months without a trophy'', ''haven''t won the league in three years'' etc etc. But for a club like ours, I just want to see good football and have a cathartic experience once a week. I think we were really spoiled under Lambert - flowing football, players giving their all for the club, last-minute winners, lower-league players plucked from obscurity who turn out to be rather good, a fairytale rise from League One to the Prem etc. I have never felt such joy and pride at going to football games - both home and away - in the fifteen years I''ve been regularly following Norwich. Bizarrely I quite enjoyed our League One experience.I am just one man and realise I don''t speak for every football supporter but I do want to watch a good game of football. I also completely understand that for Hughton, his entire brief is ''keep Norwich in the Premiership'' and I cannot really blame him for his cautious approach. I am very proud to have a Premiership team however and the increased coverage and money that comes with it. However you compare us to someone like Swansea and we were always mentioned in the same breath as them in 11/12. We''re now at a stage where Swansea have continued their trajectory, and are still being cooed over by the media, but we have become stagnant and the mainstream media are now starting to notice how horribly we are playing and the poor away form.Basically football is expensive - very expensive. I wouldn''t pay a load of money to watch a play where they whisper to each other in case they lose their voices.

[Herman 11,136]

As Ricardo pointed out in another thread if we were getting points there would be a lot less moaning about our style of play. This season we have attacked a lot more, except Spurs, but because we''ve come away with nothing people are blaming the style of play for our results. Take Villa for example. A good attacking game for the neutral, but because we lost I have heard people say that we only had one shot on target. Maybe on paper we did......

As again, except Spurs, we are not playing boring football, the fact we are not taking our chances, getting points is frustrating people.

[Barclay seats 4849 the 3rd 0]

Exactly this ..... even the bit about only reading the first third !

 

 

[quote user="Chunky Norwich"]I''ll admit I only read about a third of that but my humble two-pence worth is that football - at the end of the day - is an entertainment business. Pundits bang on about it being a results business and for the Man Utds and Chelseas of the world it is; ''six months without a trophy'', ''haven''t won the league in three years'' etc etc. But for a club like ours, I just want to see good football and have a cathartic experience once a week. I think we were really spoiled under Lambert - flowing football, players giving their all for the club, last-minute winners, lower-league players plucked from obscurity who turn out to be rather good, a fairytale rise from League One to the Prem etc. I have never felt such joy and pride at going to football games - both home and away - in the fifteen years I''ve been regularly following Norwich. Bizarrely I quite enjoyed our League One experience.I am just one man and realise I don''t speak for every football supporter but I do want to watch a good game of football. I also completely understand that for Hughton, his entire brief is ''keep Norwich in the Premiership'' and I cannot really blame him for his cautious approach. I am very proud to have a Premiership team however and the increased coverage and money that comes with it. However you compare us to someone like Swansea and we were always mentioned in the same breath as them in 11/12. We''re now at a stage where Swansea have continued their trajectory, and are still being cooed over by the media, but we have become stagnant and the mainstream media are now starting to notice how horribly we are playing and the poor away form.Basically football is expensive - very expensive. I wouldn''t pay a load of money to watch a play where they whisper to each other in case they lose their voices.[/quote]

[Sussexyellow 55]

Agree Herman. 

Spurs outclassed us, and I did not go to Hull so can not comment.

But the home games have not been boring, neither were WBA, Reading and Swansea at the end of last season.

It is a difficult balance between the priority of remaining in the Premiership and keeping the faithful entertained. Not an easy task running a football club.

We also need to remember that football entertainment means different things to different people. For some it is just seeing your team win, for others watching the tactical battle and for many seeing a thrilling game.

But there are indications that the thrill of the rise from league 1 is beginning to wear off and that the expectation is more than just survival. I have argued  in my thread on ground capacity that there are indications that those that can are beginning to vote with their feet. 

[Dubai Mark 0]

Where we are? In a clear state of evolving both the club (that includes financially and Academy) and the style of play, that''s where, sure its taking a bit longer than we all want, but you can see it is happening (you can can''t you?). Comparisons to other clubs are always good to do, but as long as you take a broader look at how other "similar" clubs are doing right now, sure Swansea are doing great right now of the back of more years momentum than we had I would argue.....but what about Ipswich, Coventry, Nottingham Forest, Leicester City, QPR etc....similar sized clubs who would all love to be in The Premier League this season, the first two in particular are a really good example of where we could be.

So, for me, I''m happy where our great club is and am accepting the strategy of gradual evolvement, even though it is a little frustrating at times. More entertainment will come, I''d also argue that thise season''s home performances have actually been better than some make out, with that line being very fine between picking up points or not, can''t see us being "gung ho" but certainly more offensive as this squad settles into the season. OTBC    

[ricardo 8,033]

[quote user="Herman "]As Ricardo pointed out in another thread if we were getting points there would be a lot less moaning about our style of play. This season we have attacked a lot more, except Spurs, but because we''ve come away with nothing people are blaming the style of play for our results. Take Villa for example. A good attacking game for the neutral, but because we lost I have heard people say that we only had one shot on target. Maybe on paper we did......

As again, except Spurs, we are not playing boring football, the fact we are not taking our chances, getting points is frustrating people.[/quote]

Yes, the OP pretty much confirms my suspicions that many people would prefer a Championship promotion season to the hard realities of life in the Premier League. My position is "be careful what you wish for, it might come to pass". The problem is that most people either have very short memories or have only been supporters for ten or fifteen years. In the 70''s and 80''s we always bounced straight back after relegation but that came to a sorry end in 1995. A decade of dross and debt followed and that led to another relegation back to League 1 for the first time in fifty years.What followed was probably the most amazing three or four seasons in NCFC history and a lot of Johnny come lately''s are now labouring under the impression that this is the way it''s always going to be. The title of the thread is "Where are We" so I''ll tell you where we are from my perspective which has been sixty years in the making. We are a realitively small club in one of the strongest leagues on planet earth. We are one of a dozen similarly placed clubs who each season will be struggling to stay in this elite league because relegation and subsequent loss of income could very easily end in spiralling debt and a further relegation.I am aware that this is not good enough for some people but then it''s only human nature to always want more than is possible. The truth is that we are now operating somewhere near the top of what a club of our size can logically expect to achieve. If that makes you unhappy and you feel that you can''t stomach what it takes to tread water in this league, then fair enough. Nobody forces you to pay for a ticket. Football supporting for a club like NCFC will always be a rocky road, there will be plenty of ups and downs. If you can''t survive the downs then NCFC isn''t for you, go support Man U or Arsenal

[kingsway 101]

Some fans are still getting way ahead of themselves and forget we''re playing in one of the hardest Leagues on the planet!

 

Despite all out spending, we are still small fry in this League and will continue to be so until we''ve had another 3-4 seasons of continuous Premiership membership, fingers crossed!

 

As for Hughton, yes he has been over cautious but the end result last season was we finished higher than we did under the messiah Lambert. Lambert left cause he felt he''d gone as far as he could with us and I think its very likely we''d of been worse of had he stayed anyway, look where Villa finished!

 

This season, we got a good draw against a very strong Everton who dominated the game, lost at Hull to a penalty that wasn''t after Fer was unlucky with a header and RVW had a superb effort saved though we should have pushed more, Soton at home we won without looking that great though we were the dominant team, Spurs we were pants, the main reason being too many players didn''t turn up, nothing to do with tactics, then again who epected much after what they''ve spent and last week against Villa the penalty was shambolic, in that £8.5M striker RVW should have taken it and then we was unlucky with another 3 chances!

 

Its way to premature to think about getting rid of Hughton yet. We''ve shown shown signs that we aren''t far away from getting it right, Hughtons just got to pick the right team and be brave and drop a certain seemingly untouchable R Snodgrass who needs a break from starting games!

 

 

[nutty nigel 7,902]

Expectation is the curse of modern day football. Sometimes expectation becomes a sense of entitlement which is even worse.

 

I got good value for my ST last season. I could count the dull games on the fingers of one hand. The rest of the time I was entertained. Am I the only one?

 

 

[ricardo 8,033]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Expectation is the curse of modern day football. Sometimes expectation becomes a sense of entitlement which is even worse.

 

I got good value for my ST last season. I could count the dull games on the fingers of one hand. The rest of the time I was entertained. Am I the only one?

 

 

[/quote]

No Nigel, I think I got my monies worth. Having a moan about a poor game is part of the experience. If every game was a cracker it would become the norm would it not?

Makes little difference to me win or lose. Its a lifetimes love and something you don''t walk away from just because the going got tough.

I realise that not everyone feels the same about it as I do. The ups and downs of NCFC are

e part of the experience and so is all the moaning and carping along the way.

[ricardo 8,033]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Expectation is the curse of modern day football. Sometimes expectation becomes a sense of entitlement which is even worse.

 

I got good value for my ST last season. I could count the dull games on the fingers of one hand. The rest of the time I was entertained. Am I the only one?

 

 

[/quote]

No Nigel, I think I got my monies worth. Having a moan about a poor game is part of the experience. If every game was a cracker it would become the norm would it not?

Makes little difference to me win or lose. Its a lifetimes love and something you don''t walk away from just because the going got tough.

I realise that not everyone feels the same about it as I do. The ups and downs of NCFC are

e part of the experience and so is all the moaning and caring along the way.

[Houston Canary 0]

I call bullstirt on kingsway. Lambert didn''t leave because he didn''t think he could take us any further. That idiotic claim had bren paraded on here so many times but never with any hint of proof beyond "I feel". What baseless crap. The man is a master athis craft. He ddidn''t suddenly lose the plot and bail out.

As for more attacking style, yes we have which is appreciated here. But putting wingers on their weak sides makes that worthless. Brad Guzan proved that, playing catch with Snodgrass. The only ones confused by that strategy were the Norwich players and fans. Hopefully the Watford showing will result in smarter positioning of players and equal but more effectiv domination.

[It's Character Forming 1,204]

I think of Lambert as a manager with some excellent qualities and some huge weaknesses of which the most serious one is defensive organisation. The idea he felt he''d taken us as far as he could is of course speculation as are all other speculations but IMO it''s the most plausible explanation for him jumping ship for a small step upwards. It is very revealing that despite having players like Benteke his team was in the relegation scrap until the midweek game before the end of last season.

Generally I agree with those who''ve pointed out that City have played some real dross over the years. If I look back to the late 90s we''d have given anything then for a season in the Prem with league wins over Man U and Arsenal, and staying up there.

The three years under Lambert were exceptional, if some of those who started watching then now fall by the wayside I have to agree City is probably the wrong club for them to support.

[Houston Canary 0]

That should read "bullshirt".

[Houston Canary 0]

Why is speculative fantady more believable than the truth? Than the very public truth that was played out in front of the world?

That AV struggled last year has nothing to do with Lambert'' s motivation for leaving. Besides, the situation he walked into was a whole different kettle of fish so what worked at under-funded City wasn''t necessarily going to play at over-priced, financially handcuffed, perennial Prem AV.

Which brings to mind the other dishonest summary of events. Moving to AV was not a small step up. It was huge. They are much bigger than us in almost every way. If you look at it with a neutral perspective, at least.

[T 191]

It is a relief to see that there are some like Dubai and Ricardo who can grasp the reality. Yes Swansea have outperformed us but they are the one and only team that have outperformed us bearing in mind  their financial position and most similar size clubs to Norwich without benefactors are in the championship. To anyone who has a grasp on reality or understands finance and probability is is painfuly obvious why Lambert went to Villa and why Norwich will most likely struggle to survive most seasons. It is concerning that there are a number of people who can not grasp this reality.

[kingsway 101]

I did hint in my post that Hughtons biggest problem is not picking the right team and I''m nowhere near 100% happy with the manager though if we pull through and finish well outside the relagtion zone like last season then I won''t complain!

[Rudolph Hucker 0]

Where we are is we were the 15th highest spenders in the summer transfer period in Europe.

We have a support which would take us to the next level but we cannot accommodate them.

We have a team which up to last season was greater than the sum of its parts but which for 10 months and especially this season falls short, and latterly well short, of the sum of its parts.

Sides which fall out of the EPL after two or more seasons have no one but themselves to blame because they have investment which will eclipse almost all promoted sides. In other words; they screw up one way or another.

Where I am at with Chris Hughton is that despite criticising him for months I would prefer he succeed than be dismissed. I think he can spot players and especially I think he can develop young players who will if nothing else will be an investment. The dream for me is we find that 20 - 30 million player and use the cash to develop Carrow Road into the sort of capacity which attracts further status and investment.

Hughton is at a crossroads and so are Norwich City. If Tuesday meant we have clicked and that elusive confidence kicks in, and if CH can harness it into a point or three at Stoke then we will all feel much happier with where we are.

[Farkes The Herald Angels 0]

Ricardo - good post in response, but I''m not a Johnny Come Lately (first game 1971) and I''m quite clear what I wish for.

I want to see progress and I''m more than happy to take ups and downs. And in the last few years it''s mostly been amazing ups.

But I simply haven''t enjoyed much of the football I''ve seen from us in 2013. Some has been good, much has not.

And it''s been the same over the 40 yeard I''ve supported the team.

But that does not mean I should go and support Man Utd or some other big club because I haven''t enjoyed a lot of 2013''s style of play.

Treading water is never much fun (even though it may have positive outcomes) and I''m simply pointing that out...and wondering how much longer the treading water is going to continue

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Herman "]As Ricardo pointed out in another thread if we were getting points there would be a lot less moaning about our style of play. This season we have attacked a lot more, except Spurs, but because we''ve come away with nothing people are blaming the style of play for our results. Take Villa for example. A good attacking game for the neutral, but because we lost I have heard people say that we only had one shot on target. Maybe on paper we did......

As again, except Spurs, we are not playing boring football, the fact we are not taking our chances, getting points is frustrating people.[/quote]

Yes, the OP pretty much confirms my suspicions that many people would prefer a Championship promotion season to the hard realities of life in the Premier League. My position is "be careful what you wish for, it might come to pass". The problem is that most people either have very short memories or have only been supporters for ten or fifteen years. In the 70''s and 80''s we always bounced straight back after relegation but that came to a sorry end in 1995. A decade of dross and debt followed and that led to another relegation back to League 1 for the first time in fifty years.What followed was probably the most amazing three or four seasons in NCFC history and a lot of Johnny come lately''s are now labouring under the impression that this is the way it''s always going to be. The title of the thread is "Where are We" so I''ll tell you where we are from my perspective which has been sixty years in the making. We are a realitively small club in one of the strongest leagues on planet earth. We are one of a dozen similarly placed clubs who each season will be struggling to stay in this elite league because relegation and subsequent loss of income could very easily end in spiralling debt and a further relegation.I am aware that this is not good enough for some people but then it''s only human nature to always want more than is possible. The truth is that we are now operating somewhere near the top of what a club of our size can logically expect to achieve. If that makes you unhappy and you feel that you can''t stomach what it takes to tread water in this league, then fair enough. Nobody forces you to pay for a ticket. Football supporting for a club like NCFC will always be a rocky road, there will be plenty of ups and downs. If you can''t survive the downs then NCFC isn''t for you, go support Man U or Arsenal[/quote]

[ricardo 8,033]

[quote user="Ferry cross The Wensum"]Ricardo - good post in response, but I''m not a Johnny Come Lately (first game 1971) and I''m quite clear what I wish for.

I want to see progress and I''m more than happy to take ups and downs. And in the last few years it''s mostly been amazing ups.

But I simply haven''t enjoyed much of the football I''ve seen from us in 2013. Some has been good, much has not.

And it''s been the same over the 40 yeard I''ve supported the team.

But that does not mean I should go and support Man Utd or some other big club because I haven''t enjoyed a lot of 2013''s style of play.

Treading water is never much fun (even though it may have positive outcomes) and I''m simply pointing that out...and wondering how much longer the treading water is going to continue

[quote user="ricardo"][quote user="Herman "]As Ricardo pointed out in another thread if we were getting points there would be a lot less moaning about our style of play. This season we have attacked a lot more, except Spurs, but because we''ve come away with nothing people are blaming the style of play for our results. Take Villa for example. A good attacking game for the neutral, but because we lost I have heard people say that we only had one shot on target. Maybe on paper we did......

As again, except Spurs, we are not playing boring football, the fact we are not taking our chances, getting points is frustrating people.[/quote]

Yes, the OP pretty much confirms my suspicions that many people would prefer a Championship promotion season to the hard realities of life in the Premier League. My position is "be careful what you wish for, it might come to pass". The problem is that most people either have very short memories or have only been supporters for ten or fifteen years. In the 70''s and 80''s we always bounced straight back after relegation but that came to a sorry end in 1995. A decade of dross and debt followed and that led to another relegation back to League 1 for the first time in fifty years.What followed was probably the most amazing three or four seasons in NCFC history and a lot of Johnny come lately''s are now labouring under the impression that this is the way it''s always going to be. The title of the thread is "Where are We" so I''ll tell you where we are from my perspective which has been sixty years in the making. We are a realitively small club in one of the strongest leagues on planet earth. We are one of a dozen similarly placed clubs who each season will be struggling to stay in this elite league because relegation and subsequent loss of income could very easily end in spiralling debt and a further relegation.I am aware that this is not good enough for some people but then it''s only human nature to always want more than is possible. The truth is that we are now operating somewhere near the top of what a club of our size can logically expect to achieve. If that makes you unhappy and you feel that you can''t stomach what it takes to tread water in this league, then fair enough. Nobody forces you to pay for a ticket. Football supporting for a club like NCFC will always be a rocky road, there will be plenty of ups and downs. If you can''t survive the downs then NCFC isn''t for you, go support Man U or Arsenal[/quote][/quote]Style won''t keep us up but points will. I agree that it would be nice to have both. The consolation is that treading water will always be better than sinking.[:D]

[Chunky Norwich 0]

I think there are at least three different tangents on the one thread...

[norfolkbroadslim 225]

[quote user="Chunky Norwich"]I think there are at least three different tangents on the one thread...
[/quote]

 

Are they fixed and btw isn''t that an asset?[:^)]