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Juggy

Could we become an Arsenal?

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I''m serious here. What is the cap on our potential growth?
It feels like Arsenal have been a top four club forever but that isn''t true, they were a boring mid-table team for most of the top division history before Wenger, save for a great back four and a knack of reaching cup finals. 
OK so they won the league a couple of times in the late Eighties / Early nineties, but we were grabbing top five finishes at that time too. It wasn''t really until Wenger arrived with some innovative ideas and a couple of stellar signings that they began the transition to ''big club'', prior to that they were a club which often punched above their weight.
It is hard to envisage us becoming anything much else than an Everton in the long run, especially if Hughton proves to become our long-serving loyal manager in the Moyes mould, but could Van Wolsfwinkel be our Bergkamp? Fer our Vieira? Ruddy can be as good as Seamen? 
Perhaps I''m dreaming, perhaps even slightly nuts, but there is a good example of a team becoming a top four club without billionaire backers. Maybe a more realistic vision is for Fer to become our Fellaini, Ruddy to become our Howard, and Van Wolfswinkel to become..... well.... even Everton haven''t had a striker this good since they sold Rooney have they? 
Here''s the sticking point.... is the barrier to our growth our geographical location? Did Arsenal just become a fashionable London club? Or could we, like Arsenal, reach the heights of football through nothing other than shrewd financial management and by making investments in the right young players? 

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While I appreciate where the op is coming from on this, I think the question has to  be more like could we become a Notts Forest or Derby County, or Norwich of the early nineties.   Arsenal we''re not and never will be simply because of resources and size of fanbase.

Could we become Norwich of the early ninties? Yes, I believe so.Could we do a Notts Forest or Derby County?  In our dreams yes.  In this day and age it would be difficult to imagine a scenario where we could win the league (even at 5000-1 [;)] ) but third or fourth?  I don''t think its beyond the realms of possibility.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]So we are on our third year in the Prem and we are could become "Arsenal"Right......[/quote]
Well there is no point in being in this league or signing young Dutch Internationals then is there. Let''s dream of beating our league position by one place again next year and improving our goal difference by at least 5, hooray.
This is actually our seventh year in the Premier League and our 24th year in the top division of English football. 
By the way, we have the same number of League Cup wins as Arsenal and Wigan have won more silverware in the last four months than Arsenal have won in eight years. 
Yay, little old Norwich. How dare we dream of an FA Cup win and a trip into Europe. 

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[quote user="lake district canary"]While I appreciate where the op is coming from on this, I think the question has to  be more like could we become a Notts Forest or Derby County, or Norwich of the early nineties.   Arsenal we''re not and never will be simply because of resources and size of fanbase.

Could we become Norwich of the early ninties? Yes, I believe so.Could we do a Notts Forest or Derby County?  In our dreams yes.  In this day and age it would be difficult to imagine a scenario where we could win the league (even at 5000-1 [;)] ) but third or fourth?  I don''t think its beyond the realms of possibility.[/quote]
That would do, third place and a big scalp in Europe. An FA Cup win would be even better. 
Norwich have always been cyclical, one day we will end up in the second tier again. It would be nice to mark this period of success with something really memorable, just like the early Nineties is marked by our title challenge and trip to Europe, and just like the mid-Eighties was marked by our League Cup win.

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The Premier League is massively different to how it was in 1993The Money means there is a MASSIVE gap between 7th / 8th place and "mid table"In our current standing we will not become a team like Arsenal.Right now I think we should be aiming for positions like Stoke / Fulham / EvertonConstant mid-table with the odd cup run and venture into Europe.To say we could become a top 5 side is laughable.

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[quote user="ricardo"]Don''t be so bleddy silly.[/quote]
Would an FA Cup win really be beyond the realms of possibility? That would be one more trophy than Arsenal have won in 8 years. If Swansea and Wigan can win a trophy and get into Europe then..... 

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]The Premier League is massively different to how it was in 1993The Money means there is a MASSIVE gap between 7th / 8th place and "mid table"In our current standing we will not become a team like Arsenal.Right now I think we should be aiming for positions like Stoke / Fulham / EvertonConstant mid-table with the odd cup run and venture into Europe.To say we could become a top 5 side is laughable.[/quote]
Newcastle managed it in 2012 having spent hardly any money, with an idiot in charge, after having been saved by the manager that we currently employ.... why couldn''t we? 
Football may be very different now than it was in 1993, but it''s not that all different now to 2012. It was, afterall, just last year.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]An FA Cup win does not make us an "Arsenal" [/quote]
No, it would make us more successful than the current Arsenal team. 

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Newcastle also almost got themselves relegated this year because they believed they didn''t need to keep their best player and invest in quality to replace him.All teams below the top 5 can quite easily struggle when the next season comes alongBlackburn Bolton and Wolves are perhaps the most recent example of teams who were apparently "stable" in the league.. look where they are now.

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@LDC: Rather than saying resources and size of fanbase I think the key factor is location.

How many London based teams have we seen become upwardly mobile with financial investment? Fulham were a league 1 old division two team, Chelsea were the team that could beat any of the top four but slip up regularly on banana skins. You are right about Arsenal too, add to that QPR recently who again had been a Championship/League One yo-yo team. Crystal Palace who have had a couple of flirtations with the premier league. You could even add that Spurs for the last 20 odd years at least have always been the ''nearly'' team, always threatening, always with talent but always falling a little short. Although not premier league at this time, even Millwall have gone up the leagues.

A lot of these teams have had relatively low average gates before premiership success. But the potential is there due to location. Which makes them ideal investment material which is why they are never short of new investment when they need it.

There is nothing wrong with dreaming, but the reality is the best we can possibly hope for is to be in a similar position to Everton and every other year make a good charge at the top 4/5. Sadly we are not located in a City of millions of people split passionately over two teams.

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Sort of understand the point... More could we become a ''big club'' after a decade or so if we were able to stay in the league that long. It''s an interesting one as times have moved on and there appears to be a gulf that just won''t be bridged. Yet I still think one of the big clubs will eventually plummet, Leeds being an example of how things can go seriously wrong.

In all honesty I think it more likey we become a Fulham, Spurs or Everton... Always the bridesmaid never the bride, and I can live with that. Entry in Europe through a cup final, some cracking matches against the top 4 and all the while watching 1p5wich languish in the lower leagues.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]To say we could become a top 5 side is laughable.[/quote]

You could say its unlikely, you could say it would take a big effort, or you could say it will never happen, but to say its laughable?   It wasn''t laughable in the late eighties early nineties - and that was against the odds.   Financially we are in a better place than in 1993 so why not challenge the top six?  Whats the point in being in the league if you think its laughable we could get anywhere near the top?   We are developing, we have a good set up. We should aim high. You don''t get to the top unless you believe you can get to the top.

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We should, in my opinion, take each season as it comes. Gradually develop the quality of the team and the size of the club / stadium.If we make big changes too quickly, we will find ourselves back in the dreaded Championship and no one wants to be back there.I would quite happily watch Norwich stay in the league for the next few years with the odd cup run.Than throw everything into a Cup win, only to watch our league form suffer and get relegated.Every Wigan fan I know, is gutted with being relegated and would happily hand back the cup to be in the promised land again.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Newcastle also almost got themselves relegated this year because they believed they didn''t need to keep their best player and invest in quality to replace him.All teams below the top 5 can quite easily struggle when the next season comes alongBlackburn Bolton and Wolves are perhaps the most recent example of teams who were apparently "stable" in the league.. look where they are now.[/quote]
Look, I know my OP was over the top, I even pretty much said it myself. 
But what I would really like to see is this Norwich squad achieve something really special, even if it is a one off. 
A top five finish or a cup win would be the icing on the cake. No point in saying that a cup run or trip to Europe makes the league more difficult, no team is remembered for finishing mid-table every year. 
So would you take 11th place every year with no trip to Europe? I''d personally love to see us lift some silverware, even if it were to signal the end of the era and give us the risk of a subsequent decline. 
We haven''t won anything since 1985, that''s 28 years. Would be nice to get a trip to Wembley and a European gaunt or two. We haven''t got anywhere until we get to all go to some dump in Serbia in the freezing cold to get drunk and watch our boys take their game on the road. Nobody else have this dream? 

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[quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="ReadingCanary"]To say we could become a top 5 side is laughable.[/quote]

You could say its unlikely, you could say it would take a big effort, or you could say it will never happen, but to say its laughable?   It wasn''t laughable in the late eighties early nineties - and that was against the odds.   Financially we are in a better place than in 1993 so why not challenge the top six?  Whats the point in being in the league if you think its laughable we could get anywhere near the top?   We are developing, we have a good set up. We should aim high. You don''t get to the top unless you believe you can get to the top.

[/quote]Man UnitedMan CityChelseaArsenalSpursLiverpoolCan you honestly see us being among them in the next few years.Don''t get me wrong, I''d love it, but without Norwich glasses on can you see it?

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I would take staying in this league over winning a cup any day of the week.Until we have a big enough squad, with decent enough quality I would hate us to risk what we have achieved in the last few years for the FA Cup.I''d be truly gutted if we went down. I honestly couldn''t take going back to the Roeder and Grant days.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"][quote user="lake district canary"][quote user="ReadingCanary"]To say we could become a top 5 side is laughable.[/quote]You could say its unlikely, you could say it would take a big effort, or you could say it will never happen, but to say its laughable?   It wasn''t laughable in the late eighties early nineties - and that was against the odds.   Financially we are in a better place than in 1993 so why not challenge the top six?  Whats the point in being in the league if you think its laughable we could get anywhere near the top?   We are developing, we have a good set up. We should aim high. You don''t get to the top unless you believe you can get to the top.[/quote]Man UnitedMan CityChelseaArsenalSpursLiverpoolCan you honestly see us being among them in the next few years.Don''t get me wrong, I''d love it, but without Norwich glasses on can you see it?[/quote]In 1986, you could have asked the same question, yet within three years we were there.  Outplaying the top teams.  It has happened, it could happen again.  Never say never. 

Believe ! [:D]

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I don''t want to seem negative.I just want to be realistic.We are on the brink of something truly special.The club just needs time to develop and the signs are brilliant with how superbly, both on and off the field, the club is being managed.We have however... been here before... and I think we can all agree we''d be heartbroken to get relegated again.

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]We are on the brink of something truly special.[/quote]We are in the middle of something truly special......

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]We should, in my opinion, take each season as it comes. Gradually develop the quality of the team and the size of the club / stadium. [/quote]
The time is now. We realistically have Van Wolfswinkel and Fer for three years maximum, probably only two years. What''s the point in signing players of that quality if you aren''t going to have a proper crack at trying to acheive something special. Plus, do you really think these players would have signed unless Hughton at very least gave them assurances that we are desperate to win a cup or two or get into the Europa League? Those players aren''t going to want three years without European football. 
[quote] If we make big changes too quickly, we will find ourselves back in the dreaded Championship and no one wants to be back there. [/quote]
If you aim for the moon you might at least land on a star (or something like that). Some things in life are inevitable. One day Delia and her husband will move on, one day McNally will, and one day our club will have hard times again and end up out of the limelight. If we go season to season caring nothing other than ensuring that we get our £60m then we are nothing other than a business. If we try and win something we are a football club, and hopefully one which makes their history a little more exciting. I am not old enough to remember 1985, I was very young. I want my own 1985, so should you. I do remember 1993, at least I have that, but people younger than me don''t have their 1993 yet. 
[quote] I would quite happily watch Norwich stay in the league for the next few years with the odd cup run. [/quote]
I can''t see why we can''t win a cup and then attempt to have a European run, reaching the semi-final is just another defeat. Winning a cup is a victory. 
[quote] Than throw everything into a Cup win, only to watch our league form suffer and get relegated.  [/quote]
We will be relegated one day. Who knows when, but it will happen. Either we finish mid-table everyear for a while and then get relegated, or we try to win some silverware and have a run in Europe and get relegated. Relegation is inevitable, it will happen at some stage. It is a little bit like saying that you won''t go on any holidays in case you lose your job. When you lose your job a few years later you will sit there wishing that you had gone on holiday when you in the position too. We aren''t going to win any cups in the Championship, you aren''t going to have any holidays when you are unemployed. 
[quote]  Every Wigan fan I know, is gutted with being relegated and would happily hand back the cup to be in the promised land again.[/quote]
You know Wigan fans? I''ve only ever met two in my life, and they preferred the rugby team! 

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[quote user="ReadingCanary"]I would take staying in this league over winning a cup any day of the week.Until we have a big enough squad, with decent enough quality I would hate us to risk what we have achieved in the last few years for the FA Cup.I''d be truly gutted if we went down. I honestly couldn''t take going back to the Roeder and Grant days.[/quote]
Winning the FA Cup doesn''t have to mean relegation though, obviously. Plus it is the FA Cup, we have never won it. We need to win it. You could witness our first ever FA Cup win, our first trip to the new Wembley, those things used to be exciting in football - they still excite me. 

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Last season in many games we were a clincal centre forward away from turning 1 point into 3 in many games, look at how many draws we had. Had we had that player to turn even half those draws into wins we could easily have finished top 8. The PL is no where as good as people would have you believe. I see no reason why we couldnt push for a top 7 or 8 finish and challenge for the cups. Geographically it will help our cause when the A11 is finished being duelled, we wont be such a bad jouney away then.

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[quote user="JF"]Last season in many games we were a clincal centre forward away from turning 1 point into 3 in many games, look at how many draws we had. Had we had that player to turn even half those draws into wins we could easily have finished top 8. The PL is no where as good as people would have you believe. I see no reason why we couldnt push for a top 7 or 8 finish and challenge for the cups. Geographically it will help our cause when the A11 is finished being duelled, we wont be such a bad jouney away then.[/quote]Agree with much of this.I see 8 - 9th being easily doable this season.

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I do believe that we could become a Norwich side of the early nineties but until we become a team that always finishes in the top half I don''t want us looking into winning the cups. Last season Wigan won the FA cup but got relegated as well, the same also happened to Birmingham when they won the League cup a few years back. Leeds'' good FA cup run gave us the title of League 1, and I seem to recall a few years ago Arsenal were doing brilliantly in the cups, but the Gunners were looking like they were going to be the Gonners when it came to the league

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