Could we become an Arsenal?

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="HazzaJet"]I do believe that we could become a Norwich side of the early nineties but until we become a team that always finishes in the top half I don''t want us looking into winning the cups. Last season Wigan won the FA cup but got relegated as well, the same also happened to Birmingham when they won the League cup a few years back. Leeds'' good FA cup run gave us the title of League 1, and I seem to recall a few years ago Arsenal were doing brilliantly in the cups, but the Gunners were looking like they were going to be the Gonners when it came to the league[/quote]

The cup run and league performance thing is a bit of a myth or fallacy. Another way to look at the FA Cup for example is that 17 of the last 20 finals have been won by teams who finished in the top six last season. 

Our own cup run last season coincided with our 10 match unbeaten run in the league, and our exit from the cup saw us win the next league game but then fail to win in 9 league games. So we played better whilst in the League cup than we did after getting knocked out of it. 

[Canaries Utd 0]

[quote user="TheNewBoy"]I''m serious here. What is the cap on our potential growth?

It feels like Arsenal have been a top four club forever but that isn''t true, they were a boring mid-table team for most of the top division history before Wenger, save for a great back four and a knack of reaching cup finals. 

OK so they won the league a couple of times in the late Eighties / Early nineties, but we were grabbing top five finishes at that time too. It wasn''t really until Wenger arrived with some innovative ideas and a couple of stellar signings that they began the transition to ''big club'', prior to that they were a club which often punched above their weight.

It is hard to envisage us becoming anything much else than an Everton in the long run, especially if Hughton proves to become our long-serving loyal manager in the Moyes mould, but could Van Wolsfwinkel be our Bergkamp? Fer our Vieira? Ruddy can be as good as Seamen? 

Perhaps I''m dreaming, perhaps even slightly nuts, but there is a good example of a team becoming a top four club without billionaire backers. Maybe a more realistic vision is for Fer to become our Fellaini, Ruddy to become our Howard, and Van Wolfswinkel to become..... well.... even Everton haven''t had a striker this good since they sold Rooney have they? 

Here''s the sticking point.... is the barrier to our growth our geographical location? Did Arsenal just become a fashionable London club? Or could we, like Arsenal, reach the heights of football through nothing other than shrewd financial management and by making investments in the right young players? 

[/quote]FFS... no

[Budapest Canary 152]

It''s a great dream.

One potential pitfall though. Supposing we managed to finish in the top five (let''s say due to shrewd signings, all of whom would "do a Michu" in their positions, and playing uncompromising football throughout the season), how long would we be able to keep that team together under our current wage structure -- bearing in mind how many key players Arsenal have lost to rivals in recent years?

[The Walking Man 13]

It might take 10 - 15 years but I don''t see why not. Do I expect us to? Probably not, but becoming and Arsenal type club is what we should aim for.

To all the doom mongers, Everton broke the top 4 monopoly, Tottenham have done it. But these are in big cities I hear you cry! Norfolk and North Suffolk has a population of over 1 million people so the fan base could easily be there.

Aim for the stars and you''ll land on the moon. Aim for moon and you''ll never leave the Earth!

[Michael Bates 9]

This thread needs to be deleted, trying to compare us to Arsenal is hugely embarrassing.

You are talking about a club who have finished in the top 4 for donkeys years, competed in Europe comfortably for quite some time, and play some brilliant stuff. I am saying this when Arsenal are my 2nd most hated team...! I am very aware they haven''t won a trophy for so many years now and long may that continue, however that certainly doesn''t make them a bad team whatsoever.

They are a superb role model for all clubs across the whole world where money hasn''t bought them direct success.

[Guest]

I like the spirit of the OP - even if using Arsenal as a benchmark is frankly crazy.I dunno. I do miss the old days when a club like Norwich could genuinely put a good season together and be top of the league for the better part of a year. But the Premier League, which we voted to join, was always going to put an end to the days when the top league positions were open to anyone other than the very, very rich.Here and now, our club needs to do everything it can to lay solid foundations for playing football long term in the Premier League, without risking the club itself.  It''s a difficult balancing act. No-one wants to see NCFC do a QPR or a Portsmouth by overreaching. The longer Norwich stay in this league, the more NCFC can use the income to define itself as a Premier League club. Be it through investment in quality young players, rebuilding and expanding the ground or developing the youth system.  Hopefully that investment will lead to higher league places or the possibility of cup runs.  It doesn''t sound like much, and maybe it isn''t. But that''s the reality of the Premier League through and through.

[ReadingCanary 0]

[quote user="Pyro Pete"]I like the spirit of the OP - even if using Arsenal as a benchmark is frankly crazy.I dunno. I do miss the old days when a club like Norwich could genuinely put a good season together and be top of the league for the better part of a year. But the Premier League, which we voted to join, was always going to put an end to the days when the top league positions were open to anyone other than the very, very rich.Here and now, our club needs to do everything it can to lay solid foundations for playing football long term in the Premier League, without risking the club itself.  It''s a difficult balancing act. No-one wants to see NCFC do a QPR or a Portsmouth by overreaching. The longer Norwich stay in this league, the more NCFC can use the income to define itself as a Premier League club. Be it through investment in quality young players, rebuilding and expanding the ground or developing the youth system.  Hopefully that investment will lead to higher league places or the possibility of cup runs.  It doesn''t sound like much, and maybe it isn''t. But that''s the reality of the Premier League through and through.[/quote]Pretty much my exact opinion and view on the issue

[norfolkbroadslim 223]

And to think, we used to dream of becoming a Charlton![;)]

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Michael Bates"]This thread needs to be deleted, trying to compare us to Arsenal is hugely embarrassing. [/quote]

Oh yeah because that wouldn''t be censorship! Did nobody see that I admitted it was crazy in the OP? I wanted to evoke a polarised discussion, it worked.

[quote] You are talking about a club who have finished in the top 4 for donkeys years [/quote]

In 86/87 we finished 5th, in 88/89 we finished 4th, in 92/93 we finished 3rd. We were good once too.

[quote] competed in Europe comfortably for quite some time [/quote]

Haven''t won a single trophy in eight years and haven''t qualified from the group stages in Europe for three consecutive years. They have been clinging on desperately to ''top four'' status and if Tottenham keep Bale they may finally lose it. We have already ascertained that 5th place is achievable, because Newcastle did it in 2012.

[quote] and play some brilliant stuff. [/quote]

Can remember a couple of Johnny Howson wonder goals at the end of last season, next Fabregas?

[quote] however that certainly doesn''t make them a bad team whatsoever. [/quote]

This isn''t about Arsenal becoming a bad team, it is about whether we can become a great team. I haven''t disputed Arsenals quality, but "can we become a West Brom" would have been a bit negative, wouldn''t it? "Can we finish three places higher in the league?" Whoopdy do, may as well go down if that''s the scope of what we are allowed to dream about. Notts County were once a force to be reckoned with, they aren''t now. Football is cylical, why can''t we be as big as Arsenal in 2030?

[quote] They are a superb role model for all clubs across the whole world where money hasn''t bought them direct success.[/quote]

Which is precisely why I decided to choose Arsenal as a case study and not a club which has been bankrolled by an oil barren or Russian ogligarch. That was the point, clearly.

[Guest]

[quote user="norfolkbroadslim"]

And to think, we used to dream of becoming a Charlton![;)]

[/quote]Heh. Whatever happened to the Charlton Model?  Probably now sitting in the bottom drawer of a filing cabinet labelled ''Bight Ideas''. Where you will also find such gems as ''Build a hotel'' and ''Buy as much land as possible''.

[Baracouda 47]

i agree with the sentiment OP.

Last year when everyone was talking about increasing the stadium several posters commented, with the increase in TV money... the impact of large stadiums is reduced.

Whilst i''m not saying we''re gonna win the league, I genuinely believe a top6 finish is open to a team outside of the big six. Not saying us, but it''s the best opportunity for anyone.

Wherever the top6 came from, use to big the big four and before that was United on their own competing with different sides each year, until Arsenal settled into a competitor).

Spurs 1 champions league finish and Liverpool no champions league finishes in quite a few seasons... really ''''Big 6" ? Or just being kind to scousers?

Top7 Sides:

Arsenal -- Still not spent that 100m they going on about.

Liverpool -- About to lose Suarez

Tottenham -- Probably most settled, now looks like Bale staying.

United/Chelsea/Man City/Everton new managers.

Couple of those sides are going to get it seriously wrong and potentially open it up to someone to nick a top6 finish... even if it''s just for a season.

Contenders? Swansea/Newcastle/WBA/Norwich??

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Baracouda"]i agree with the sentiment OP.

Last year when everyone was talking about increasing the stadium several posters commented, with the increase in TV money... the impact of large stadiums is reduced.

Whilst i''m not saying we''re gonna win the league, I genuinely believe a top6 finish is open to a team outside of the big six. Not saying us, but it''s the best opportunity for anyone.

Wherever the top6 came from, use to big the big four and before that was United on their own competing with different sides each year, until Arsenal settled into a competitor).

Spurs 1 champions league finish and Liverpool no champions league finishes in quite a few seasons... really ''''Big 6" ? Or just being kind to scousers?

Top7 Sides:

Arsenal -- Still not spent that 100m they going on about.

Liverpool -- About to lose Suarez

Tottenham -- Probably most settled, now looks like Bale staying.

United/Chelsea/Man City/Everton new managers.

Couple of those sides are going to get it seriously wrong and potentially open it up to someone to nick a top6 finish... even if it''s just for a season.

Contenders? Swansea/Newcastle/WBA/Norwich??[/quote]

Exactly, things change over time. By comparing Arsenal''s history to ours and writing off this thread as crazy (like Michael Bates) you would be ignoring the many ''also rans''.

Nottingham Forest, Notts County, Leeds United. Those were massive clubs.

Why is it impossible that in 30 years the landscape could look very different? Man City and Chelsea would be doomed tomorrow if their sugar daddies got bored.

Chelsea could quite easily be the next Leeds or Nottigham Forest. And who knows which of the mid-table teams would step up to become a contender.

We don''t now dream of being a Nottingham Forest, once upon a time many Norwich fans would have done.

People lack imagination.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Michael Bates"] You are talking about a club who have finished in the top 4 for donkeys years, competed in Europe comfortably for quite some time, and play some brilliant stuff.[/quote]

People said that about Nottingham Forest once.

[Michael Bates 9]

Our success in the past was in a totally different time to the football league we participate in now, money is a huge factor and clubs have increased in size through commercialization massively. It is much harder to compete with such teams. Arsenal alongside Spurs and Liverpool are the second tier of the top 6 behind Chelsea, Man City and Utd. Liverpool will be a completely reformed side IMO with Rodgers improving them with good up and coming players. Newcastle broke into the top 5 at a perfect time when certain clubs were in a complete ''regrouping'' phrase. Look at how they fared last season when they lost just one player being Ba, and that was in January(if i''m right).

Mentioning Howson in this thread relating to becoming Arsenal is obscene, he scored two good goals admittedly but he all of a sudden is made out to be the next big thing..!

2030 is so far off that nobody can comment on what the Premier League will be like, the next 5 years is hard enough but on thing is for sure, Norwich will not become an Arsenal within 5 years lol...

[ReadingCanary 0]

TheNewBoy, just wondering if you were there in 1993 and watched the league back then?

[Michael Bates 9]

You keep referring to the past as if the Premier League has been the same over decades. The last ten years has completely changed the league totally.

[ReadingCanary 0]

[quote user="Michael Bates"]You keep referring to the past as if the Premier League has been the same over decades. The last ten years has completely changed the league totally.[/quote]Exactly where I was coming from.

[Evesham Canary 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]The Premier League is massively different to how it was in 1993The Money means there is a MASSIVE gap between 7th / 8th place and "mid table"In our current standing we will not become a team like Arsenal.Right now I think we should be aiming for positions like Stoke / Fulham / EvertonConstant mid-table with the odd cup run and venture into Europe.To say we could become a top 5 side is laughable.[/quote]

Happy to be corrected here but I believe Stoke''s highest prem finish is 13th & we have bettered that both seasons - we also finished above Fulham last year. Being another Everton is probably the limit of what can be achieved over a number of seasons. How refreshing it would be for footie generally if a Norwich, Swansea or West Brom broke into the top 6. We need to be realistic - whilst our 4 "new" players look good on paper, 3 of them have never playef in the prem before so we need to see how they bed in before making OTT predictions. We should be aiming for top half & a devent cup run this year as a realistic target.

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Michael Bates"]Our success in the past was in a totally different time to the football league we participate in now, money is a huge factor and clubs have increased in size through commercialization massively. [/quote]

1950 was very different to 1970, 1970 was very different to 1990, 1990 was very different to 2010, 2010 was very different to...... you can complete that chain.  

[quote] It is much harder to compete with such teams. Arsenal alongside Spurs and Liverpool are the second tier of the top 6 behind Chelsea, Man City and Utd.  [/quote]

It used to be a top four. Now it is a top six. What next, a top eight? A top two? Since when have Liverpool been a top six side? They finished 7th last season, 8th the season before. You just didn''t want to mention Everton, because you know that Everton only finished in the top half of the table two times times in thirteen years between 1991 and 2004. Now they are bigger than Liverpool, who for decades fought a running battle for football dominance with Nottm Forest and Man Utd. We can now include Everton in the top six. It''s only fair, isn''t it? I mean, they have finished in the top six in five of the last nine years. Would be unfair to not include Everton, considering Liverpool have had just one top six finish in the last four seasons?

[quote]  Newcastle broke into the top 5 at a perfect time when certain clubs were in a complete ''regrouping'' phrase. [/quote] 

Well then we had better way for them to have another regrouping stage then, whatever that is. With Everton turning themselves from a constant relegation threatened team (of Wigan proportions), they must have exploited the five ''regrouping stages'' that the top six have had in the last nine years. This is just your excuse for mediocrity, it is almost as if Norwich fans don''t want to see a situation where we could achieve a top six finish once or twice. If Everton can then we can. They have been broke for years, their squad is always thin, the use their academy. We can too. I hope that McNally isn''t this negative. 

[quote] Mentioning Howson in this thread relating to becoming Arsenal is obscene, he scored two good goals admittedly but he all of a sudden is made out to be the next big thing..! [/quote]

See, now I know that you have absolutely no sense of humour or appreciation of irony. Can''t believe that you bit on that one. 

[quote]  2030 is so far off that nobody can comment on what the Premier League will be like, the next 5 years is hard enough but on thing is for sure, Norwich will not become an Arsenal within 5 years lol...[/quote]

What about an Everton? Why can''t they become an Everton? There are two places between the two teams. Stop telling me why we can''t become an Arsenal, and tell me why we can''t become an Everton over the next five years. You can''t.... that''s why you purposely left them out of your top six and included Liverpool! 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]TheNewBoy, just wondering if you were there in 1993 and watched the league back then?[/quote]

Yes I watched every home game and four away games in 92/93, and was at Carrow Road for all three of our home legs in the UEFA Cup in the following season. My favourite moment 93/94 was the whole of Carrow Road singing "We''re in Europe, we''re in Europe, your not, your not" at Man Utd fans, after they got knocked out before us. Why? 

[ReadingCanary 0]

i would say Football changed less between 1950-1990 than it has in the last 10 years

[ReadingCanary 0]

[quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="ReadingCanary"]TheNewBoy, just wondering if you were there in 1993 and watched the league back then?[/quote]

Yes I watched every home game and four away games in 92/93, and was at Carrow Road for all three of our home legs in the UEFA Cup in the following season. My favourite moment 93/94 was the whole of Carrow Road singing "We''re in Europe, we''re in Europe, your not, your not" at Man Utd fans, after they got knocked out before us. Why? 

[/quote]]Because you don''t seem to notice how different the the league was in the 1990''s and now

[Juggy 0]

While you are at it, tell me why Chelsea and Man City can''t become a Leeds or Nottingham Forest. 

And then tell me what would happen to the top six if that did happen. Would it become a top four? Would two other teams make up the ground and become a top six? 

Were Motherwell fans saying that they will never be a top 2 club a few years ago? Where did they finish last season? 

You note the rate of change over the past ten years, but are completely unopen to footballing evolving just as quickly or even quicker over the next ten years. We went from League One to 12th in the Premier League in a couple of years, and yet your mind is so closed that you can''t envisage a situation whereas we may be able to go from 11th in the Premier League to 6th in the Premier League in the next five.

That isn''t me being crazy, it is you being close minded and unambitious. 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]i would say Football changed less between 1950-1990 than it has in the last 10 years[/quote]

Did you go to football in the 1950''s? 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"][quote user="TheNewBoy"][quote user="ReadingCanary"]TheNewBoy, just wondering if you were there in 1993 and watched the league back then?[/quote]

Yes I watched every home game and four away games in 92/93, and was at Carrow Road for all three of our home legs in the UEFA Cup in the following season. My favourite moment 93/94 was the whole of Carrow Road singing "We''re in Europe, we''re in Europe, your not, your not" at Man Utd fans, after they got knocked out before us. Why? 

[/quote]]Because you don''t seem to notice how different the the league was in the 1990''s and now[/quote]

Yes I notice. That''s why I am open minded about football being very different in the 2020''s to the 2000''s. Why would I look back at such a massive pace of change and then assume that things are going to become predictable and completely static over the next five or ten years? It defies logic. 

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]i would say Football changed less between 1950-1990 than it has in the last 10 years[/quote]

In fact, this is the stupidest thing I have ever read. Just think about what you have just written, perhaps google some pictures of football in the fifties. 

[ReadingCanary 0]

Chelsea could apparently getting relegated this year.This thread has gone into madnessI''m off to bed.

[ReadingCanary 0]

Get* even

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="ReadingCanary"]Chelsea could apparently getting relegated this year.This thread has gone into madnessI''m off to bed.[/quote]

Open your mind a little. We just finished 11th in the Premier League. Go and look at Everton''s league position history for the past twenty years.  

I just feel really sorry for any Norwich fan who doesn''t dare to dream enough to imagine us being able to finish five places in the league. There would be no point in watching the games or reading the PinkUn if I thought we had reached our peak and couldn''t progress. 

Lambert didn''t think he could take us any further, I''m glad Hughton and McNally do, and they will. 

[Juggy 0]

*five places higher in the league