Could you see Norwich having a black manager within the next 20 years?

[Google Bot 3,275]

Yellow Wall, you''re in the majority i would imagine, however, i think you''re misunderstand the original point, it''s not about whether you specifically see Chris as a ''Black'' manager it''s about the perception of us a club, or rather our locale.

[Kolin Kob 0]

[quote user="Skijumptoes"]I''ve heard plenty of plenty of remarks from day one, be they tongue-in-cheek. But, it will probably turn out that i''m the only one honest enough to admit to hearing, what i''d refer to as casual racism i guess. i.e. there''s no devised venom behind it.

If things got to the point that they did with Worthington some tit, or possibly tits will tarnish our reputation out of anger, and that was my concern. But the original question was really based around our perception outside of the area and whether this perception exists, and if it does exist is it valid? On top of that the game is very unbalanced in terms of having a high percentage of black players, but very few black managers. I don''t know why that is, but that was what i referred to as difficulties.

But, Listen i don''t want to go into detail as it''s not fair on Hughton who i have utmost respect for.

I was uncomfortable replying to this thread today, however, after being grilled on here originally claiming that i was a racist for bringing the issue up BEFORE his appointment, i felt it worth flagging up again today with the current news.

It annoyed me at the time how people read between the lines and labelled me a racist, when in fact it was a valid question which i wanted to know the answer to, i stopped discussing it when Chris was appointed as it no longer was a hypothetical question and revolved around an individual, i''m not into that.

Moving on... To me the incident looks a bit overcooked in the media, but then that''s the issue here isn''t it, i think we''re more likely to brush something like this off as someone acting an idiot, while elsewhere it would/could cause outrage.

I''m surrounded by ''casual'' racists, i''ll be honest, maybe other people aren''t, i don''t know, To me it seems normal to hear how such and such town, village, car boot, market, pub etc. has gone to pot since people from ethnicity x or y have ''taken it over'', or whatever words are expressed.

I don''t know maybe i''m too honest in talking publicly about these things, i''m not easily offended, and therefore can''t be the voice of someone who is. But i can ask the questions.[/quote]Thanks for clarifying. You make some valid points here.Have never thought your comments were racist (don''t think anyone made that accusation) - merely that you were making an issue out of a non-issue.I too have heard racism from Norwich fans in the crowds (in case you are interested it was an away game, aimed at a black referee), but the level of racism witnessed at Norwich away and home games is small enough to be statistically insignificant (although deplorable), and less than you would be likely to find in most other social scenarios involving 25''000 people. Chris Hughton being manager of Norwich City or otherwise has no bearing on this. It is not as if we have a group of Lazio-style ultras.I think football in general gets a bad image as being racist, when in my opinion, football has been a major driving force, over the last 30 years, to removing racism in society (admittedly this is mainly through accident rather than direct intention by footballing bodies).

[Kolin Kob 0]

[quote user="Yellow Wall"]Am I the only one on here who never thinks of Chris Hughton as black, half black or whatever.

Personally I could not care if he was white, black, yellow or green. I never think of it or about it.

If I discuss him it is about his role as football manager not about whether he is a fat, thin, tall, short, jewish, catholic, atheist, muslim football manager because, quite simply, I couldn''t give a sh*t.[/quote]You are not the only one. That is the main reason for so much annoyance caused by the original post, to me amongst other posters.It is the fact that anyone should even consider thinking about a footballer in terms of his colour, even positively, which rankled with many. Which can only be a good thing.

[BOO 0]

Surely the whole point is that this thread should never have been started because the theme is completely irrelevant, best to stop posting on it and let it drift into the past where it most definitely belongs!

[Google Bot 3,275]

Just to make one thing clear, i don''t separate a black player from any other colour player, neither do i manager so please stop playing that card as each time it''s played, the point is completely missed time and time again.

If you want my honest opinion i find Religion to be the biggest divide in modern day, not race. But then that''s probably government spun.

Sure, if the question was ''Who would accept a black manager?'' you have a point, but it''s not and it''s completely the opposite of that.

The question, always from day one, is how a black manager would perceive US. The post was very much relevant at the time as we''d been in the news regarding racist abuse from a Norwich fan towards a Norwich player (Vaughan). And from that, Bright was making some real accusations at Norwich fans in general following coming under attack himself.

I''m done with this now, feel that i''ve said all that i can say on the matter.

[BOO 0]

Why don''t you just shut the feck up and let it disappear into the the past!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="Kolin Kob"][quote user="Yellow Wall"]Am I the only one on here who never thinks of Chris Hughton as black, half black or whatever.

Personally I could not care if he was white, black, yellow or green. I never think of it or about it.

If I discuss him it is about his role as football manager not about whether he is a fat, thin, tall, short, jewish, catholic, atheist, muslim football manager because, quite simply, I couldn''t give a sh*t.[/quote]You are not the only one. That is the main reason for so much annoyance caused by the original post, to me amongst other posters.It is the fact that anyone should even consider thinking about a footballer in terms of his colour, even positively, which rankled with many. Which can only be a good thing.[/quote]

 

It''s about the differences in the way people are treated not so much about the obvious words and actions like in the facebook incident. I''m amazed that so many people seem unable to see that and seem to believe if they don''t use offending words they can''t be guilty of racism.

 

 

[BOO 0]

Let it drop Nutty. Post about things you understand!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

I''ll tell you what I understand winky. I understand how people are disadvantaged by their race aside from being insulted for their race.

 

 

[BOO 0]

It''s good that you have that understanding Nutty, as most do, best let this thread just go away now before making anymore obvious statements.

The point is that the longer you prolong it the more you draw attention to it, just let it go.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Aside from the ridiculous idea that your posts will somehow make the thread disappear while others will keep it at the top of the board, what advantage will anyone gain by repressing views because they don''t like them? It''s only through discussions and tolerance that understanding will prevail. You stropping all over the place like a big girls blouse without sharing any opinion or understanding of the issues rather reflects the rest of your input on this board.

 

 

[BOO 0]

?

[nutty nigel 7,534]

?

 

[quote user="Wolf"]Why don''t you just shut the feck up and let it disappear into the the past![/quote]

 

 

[BOO 0]

Yes exactly, let it go, it''s a debate that belongs in the last decade or before, the world has moved on Nutty and your insights are from that era my friend.

Best to just let the whole thing drop off the board without further embarrassment.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Oh really? And the other posters should shut the feck up because you say so too? Yet you travel up and down this board while never leaving the mark of an opinion anywhere. Repressing people and trying to deny them the right to speak are from an era I never remember and I hope we never get to. But it seems that''s where you come from.

 

I''m embarrassed for you Winky.

 

 

[BOO 0]

Blimey, an extreme view! But as you will, my advice is to think a bit before you post on these matters, but it''s up to you mate, I''m sure you know best!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Thanks for your advice winky. I''ll bear it in mind.....

 

 

[BOO 0]

Great

[Herman 9,764]

[quote user="Houston Canary"]I understand your points 100%, skn. I brought up this very issue indirectly a few days ago when I asked on another thread why there was a paternalistic attitude towards Hughton by some fans who overstate how terrfic he is. Maybe nobody got it, or wanted to admit it, or maybe I''m simply wrong but I have a feeling some refuse to criticize him when he deserves it because he is black (or half so) and want to give him more leeway lest they been seen as racially intolerant. He''s made some horrible decisions this season. Our approach to too men games this and last season made for dull games. It''s okay to question him. He''s a man. He can take it. And based on an article or comment here and there, he''s learned from it. Treat him like a man. Not a black man.[/quote]

 

Personally speaking,you are wide of the mark.The reasons i have supported him is

A) He''s the clubs manager.

B) I understand what he is trying to achieve with the club.

C)He''s a thouroughly decent person.(This isn''t majorly important,but it helps).

I will also add that i haven''t even read anyone overstate how terrific he is,even his most voiciferous supporters.

[Mr Angry 1,561]

[quote user="Wolf"]Yes exactly, let it go, it''s a debate that belongs in the last decade or before, the world has moved on Nutty and your insights are from that era my friend.

Best to just let the whole thing drop off the board without further embarrassment.[/quote]

Wolf, I''d say that the fact that our manager has been the subject of racist comments this week suggests that this debate is rather relvant now, don''t you?

[Houston Canary 0]

Why the rush to bury this thread, and all those"race doesn''t matter today? Have we got some non whites who can substantiate that?

Everybody shush before somebody says the wrong thing!

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Little winky seems to think that older people are either racist or don''t understand the issues. I would say I understand them better than I ever have done at this age. What worries me is that many who take it upon themselves to police racism recognise racist insults but not deep ingrained racism. The insults, whilst they are unsavoury, illegal, and plain wrong are not as harmful as the ingrained racism which is not so easily detectable.

 

 

[William Darby 0]

[quote user="nutty nigel"]

Little winky seems to think that older people are either racist or don''t understand the issues. I would say I understand them better than I ever have done at this age. What worries me is that many who take it upon themselves to police racism recognise racist insults but not deep ingrained racism. The insults, whilst they are unsavoury, illegal, and plain wrong are not as harmful as the ingrained racism which is not so easily detectable.

 

 

[/quote]

I understand where you''re coming from I think.

It''s like the Kick it out campaign. Just because we''re a million miles from the 70s casual racism you heard on terraces up and down the country.  And and hint of racism now is leapt on. Doesn''t actually ''cure'' any one person of their racist opinions if they have any.  

eg they could  be sitting at home in front of their TVs slagging off every non white (or any other colour for that matter) that pops up on tv.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

Or even less obvious than that. For me it''s about the way people are treated.

 

If a fan shouts you lazy black b@stard to a player someone will rightly pull him up straight away. But what if he shouts you lazy b@stard but only shouts it when the player is black. That will not be so readily jumped on by the people around him but is evidence of ingrained racism. Keeping it football related is it more difficult for a black player to win POTS? OK, if some one states I''m not voting for him cuz he''s black they will be rightfully pulled up for it. But if they say nothing but refuse to ever vote for a black player it''s ingrained racism.

 

I posted something on the other thread that I experienced in Turkey. My daughter was in a competition that she couldn''t win because a lot of people in the hotel didn''t like the English. She wasn''t insulted and neither was I but we both had the feeling we were alienated.

 

Hope some of that makes sense..

 

 

[Roodge 0]

If we dropped the term "Racist" from our vocabulary, & substituted it with the term "Moronic Ar$ehole, then they might get the picture.

[BOO 0]

Nutty does actually display some understanding here, the debate must move on from the discussion of overt racism which this thread seemed to be doing, it''s not about racist abuse and name calling, it''s actually about institutionalised racism throughout our society, at all levels and in all organisations.

By confining a debate to racist abuse the real problem is being overlooked, that is the point I was trying to make.

[Juggy 0]

Am I the only one who cannot see the slightest bit of relevance between the OP and the incident on facebook a few days ago? 

The OP pretty much asks whether Norwich fans would accept a black manager (bizarre theme), the incident a few days ago saw an Ipswich fan make a racist comment.

So why was this bumped exactly? 

[Google Bot 3,275]

You mentioning Turkey reminds me of a really shocking incident i witnessed.

Around 5 years ago when a family member was selling a restaurant we had a lot of interest from a local Turkish man, he offered full asking price and after visiting a couple of times arranged a final visit with his backer (Which hadn''t been mentioned up until this point).  Turn''s out the original guy worked in a Kebab shop had been saving some money to do something on his own, and his backer owned the chains he had worked in.  He was really excited, and everything seemed smooth sailing.

Anyway.. When the backer arrived that night to have a look round, within 5 minutes he was having a complete barney at the original guy,  He was pacing around angrily saying ''look'' and pointing at the tables, kitchens etc. in dismay, visually disturbed, rubbing his head.

They were very open, and the conversation basically descended into lines of "We don''t do this kind of business, people think we''re dirty" and "They wouldn''t take a cup of tea from you, let alone a plate of food" while we stood uncomfortably out the back.

Bottom line, they argued for quite some time, there was no way he would change his mind and therefore sale fell through, and the original guy come back to apologise the next day for what happened, he was really down and so apologetic.

Now, i''ve never been able to decide what that was all about, my instinctual feeling was that he was trying to keep the other guy down the pecking order by using underhand tactics and playing the race card to keep him in his place.  I just couldn''t comprehend that what was being said was true otherwise.

However, whichever way you flip the coin on this, it''s disturbing.  On one side of the coin you could have people within one sect/race building a hurtful perception of another, for their own personal gains or to hold a bit of power over them.  And on the other, a genuine belief that they''re disliked based on appearance and they should stick to where they are tolerated.

This kind of ties in to what you were saying in regard to someone yelling abuse with implied racism without saying anything that could be directly construed as racist.  I find it strange the level of general rudeness that Greek/Kurdish/Turkish/Egyptian staff deal with in a Kebab shop compared to most other British/White takeaways.  I''m yet to hear someone in my local chippy relentlessly tapping on the counter asking why it''s taking so long, for example.

[Google Bot 3,275]

[quote]Am I the only one who cannot see the slightest bit of relevance between the OP and the incident on facebook a few days ago? 

The OP pretty much asks whether Norwich fans would accept a black manager (bizarre theme), the incident a few days ago saw an Ipswich fan make a racist comment.

[/quote]

Read it again, and highlight where i ''pretty much'' asked that on my original post if you''re going to misinterpret as fact.

And of course it''s relevant to the ''incident'' on facebook, it''s more than ''slight''!  Hence why i bumped it back, if you''ve not noticed we''re sat here today with our Manager putting out a statement that he''s "Angry and Disappointed" with racist comments that have been made.  Just as Bright and Vaughan were at the time when i posted, which served as the basis of the original post.

Why people are so keen to sweep it under the carpet is beyond me, i''ve had enough of replying to people who can''t comprehend so if you want me to shut up stop asking such stupid questions! :)

[Juggy 0]

[quote user="Skijumptoes"][quote]Am I the only one who cannot see the slightest bit of relevance between the OP and the incident on facebook a few days ago? 

The OP pretty much asks whether Norwich fans would accept a black manager (bizarre theme), the incident a few days ago saw an Ipswich fan make a racist comment.

[/quote]

Read it again, and highlight where i ''pretty much'' asked that on my original post if you''re going to misinterpret as fact.

And of course it''s relevant to the ''incident'' on facebook, it''s more than ''slight''!  Hence why i bumped it back, if you''ve not noticed we''re sat here today with our Manager putting out a statement that he''s "Angry and Disappointed" with racist comments that have been made.  Just as Bright and Vaughan were at the time when i posted, which served as the basis of the original post.

Why people are so keen to sweep it under the carpet is beyond me, i''ve had enough of replying to people who can''t comprehend so if you want me to shut up stop asking such stupid questions! :)

[/quote]

Well all I can say in response is that I have spent most of my life in "the city" and other cities (yes, there are lots of cities in this country!), and perhaps you being raised in "the sticks" gives you a different outlook, because we are on an entirely different wavelength if I''m honest. 

Just one of those things I guess.