Great Support But ...

[Duncan 0]

Great atmosphere at the game on Saturday and the fans really played their part again in willing City to victory.  However for me there was one complaint and that was to hear a section of the crowd, at least a couple of times, chant abuse at Le Saux questioning, how shall I put it, his sexual preferences.  Now some might find that amusing but in a week when so many have rightly thrown their hands up in horror at the racist abuse aimed at England players, chants like this are an embarrassment. A final point on Le Saux  (who must be sick of this chant and might have wanted revenge)  is that when tackled by Edworthy in the box at the Barclay end didn''t fall down looking for a penalty but instead shook hands with Mark for his fair challenge. 

 

 

[Cantley 0]

[quote]Great atmosphere at the game on Saturday and the fans really played their part again in willing City to victory. However for me there was one complaint and that was to hear a section of the crowd, at...[/quote]

I believe the "Let''s kick homophobia out of football" campaign is scheduled for February 2013. And recalling our previous brush with Wayne Rooney, the "Let''s kick fatism out of football" is pencilled in for some time in 2027

[Stephen Frys Evil Twin 0]

I bet you sit in the River End don''t you!

Seriously, whichever ground he goes to, which ever team he plays for, which ever set of fans he is playing infront of, he ALWAYS has that chant aimed towards him.

I know there are people who like to pick holes in everything, and I think you''re one of them.

It''s a well-known fact that Le Saux is a happily married man with two children. I know that the chant was made in jest, and I''m sure he is.

He certainly won''t lose any sleep over it, so neither should you!

RANT over!

[At last? 0]

Duncan

I think you have a point there.

I think it was Flem though who was involved in the incident you mention. I think Flem really appreciated it as Le Saux could have easily dived and given Rileys performance, a pen would have not been a surprise.

Mind you, Le Saux did use his "experience" later on to get Bents booked. But hes young and will hopefully learn.

[Campbell 0]

To compare disgusting racist chanting to light-hearted banter that goes on at every ground, every weekend, is a joke itself.

[Duncan 0]

I suppose that it depends on what you call ''light hearted banter''.  Personally I find that chant offensive and not ideal listening for my 12 year old son.  However I agree that those who sang it did it in jest just as some who make racist remarks also do in jest.

[FilletTheFishWife . 0]

c''mon this is a football match not a church service.

aren''t we being a touch over-sensitive here. i''m sure its water off a ducks back for GLS and frankly i find sanctimonious attempts to sanitise the crowd a bit tiring.

what about the chants ''deservedly'' aimed at Mike Riley. I''m sure he knows his father and doesn''t spank his monkey any more than any other referee.

what about the chants aimed at the tub of lard in the Southampton section - who must find it expensive paying for two seats and 100 mars bars every Saturday.

where do you draw the line?

 

[GenerationA47 863]

Well, though I wasn''t at the game, I have to say my opinions are that Duncan isn''t at all being sanctimonious, any more than we are when we condemn racist abuse.  I know it''s almost part of football to call people gay, just as it''s a usual part of our banter whilst growing up.  But personally I''ve just about got rid of that insult from my personal vocabulary, after reflecting on how I''d feel if I were queer, and a hundred people or even just one person were to use it as a term of abuse in front of me. 

This doesn''t mean I seriously think that social conditions are such that offensive homophobia can rapidly be eradicated from the game (e.g. before 2013...) but it would be nice if footballers could ''come out'' and not, as they currently do, have to pretend to be something different for fear of being treated badly.  Again, the main difference between, for example, ''fat''ism and homophobia is that being overweight can affect a player''s performance and therefore could justifiably be seen as a negative (a la Mullers), while like race, the other is irrelevant to their playing ability, and like race does attract violence (sometimes deadly) and day to day victimisation in this country.

Having said all that I still find the ''Does your boyfriend know you''re here'' song to the Seagulls fans hilarious, but then I think most people would find it humorous, rather than abusive, when heard in context...

[gazzathegreat 0]

[quote]Great atmosphere at the game on Saturday and the fans really played their part again in willing City to victory. However for me there was one complaint and that was to hear a section of the crowd, at...[/quote]

duncan

i agree with you wholeheartedly, some of the moronic stuff chanted at games makes you wonder if certain ''fans'' have a brain

okay, if a player is not up to the game, fine - call him crap, lazy, etc -  but to single him out for what he looks like, his colour, sexual prefences etc is just not needed, who cares anyway?  Don''t really understand why Le Saux is singled out in this way but i guess he has the last laugh, having a successful career playing a game he loves

chants like that make me cringe, also the ''we shoot burglers'' one too, though thankfully that seems to have died a death now 

 

[bananaman 0]

God yeah, the we shoot burglars thing was outrageous.

[Dame to Blame 108]

I''ve been going to football for over 30 years and this sort of singing\ banter what ever you want to call it has always been there and to be honest most of it is just fans having a laugh and not meaning anything by it,  when you go to football i think most people know what is sung during a game its not like  its a total surprise about what is sung at football grounds if you don''t like it don''t go , i have to say I''m starting to get jarred off with the political correct brigade perhaps we should all sit in our seats don''t sing be boring and not have a laugh but then again i don''t like sitting in the river end  

[AJ 1,358]

Tony Martin should become a security guard 

[Essexiled Canary 0]

DUNCAN!!!!

Do you find the referee''s a w*£*er, chant too explicite for your son, and what about; my old man said be an Ipswich fan, or chants about kickin in toy ipswich fan, in fact do you think we should ban all hostility??

Im against racism BIGTIME!!!! however mocking a hetrosexual about being homosexual surely is not on a par with such bigotry which has caused so much death and destruction throughout the world??

Let me ask you a serious question: do you think swearing is offensive and not ideal listening for your 12 year old son????

[GenerationA47 863]

[quote]I''ve been going to football for over 30 years and this sort of singing\ banter what ever you want to call it has always been there and to be honest most of it is just fans having a laugh and not meani...[/quote]

Oh yeah?  Think about it: if it wasn''t for campaigners at all levels against prejudice (or the ''PC brigade'' as you would call them) in the 80s pointing out the unfairness of racism in football, your beloved ''call a spade a spade'' brigade would still be doing monkey noises like the Spaniards.  They  were only "having a laugh and not meaning anything by it" though weren''t they?  But that''s already a lost cause for the campaign for ''freedom of speech'', unfortunately for one of your traditions of football over the past 30 years.  I''m sorry for you.

But well done, you''re still holding out and vocally condoning homophobia in football in the 21st century.  As you say, if something happens a lot, then obviously that makes it beyond criticism, and anyone voicing any protest is just annoying.  Brave stance there: congratulations on really sticking your neck out against us PC oppressors! 

But then, you don''t have much to lose do you: you''re not the confused teenager who can''t reveal the truth about what they really are like for fear of being singled out by the likes of the chanting bigots.  (I wonder if you''d react differently if your child turned out to be homosexual... but then given your attitude I doubt he or she would ever tell you!)

Rant over!  On the ball City!

[DumbleDelia is Magic 0]

What''s the difference in chanting "You only sing when you''re fishing" at Grimsby fans or "You only sing when you''re theiving" at Liverpool fans, to chanting about whether Graeme Le Saux is gay or not?  They are both obviously total c**p but that is football banter.  It''s not nescessarily right But you here so much rubbish at a football match you don''t, and shouldn''t take any notice of it.  How many of us have gone away and been offended when the chant "You must have come in a tractor" has been sung at us?  I''m willing to guess, none.  And rightly so.  That''s football. 

I''m sorry Duncan if you didn''t think it was appropriate listening for your son.  You do get some idiots at the football.  But if the whole barclay was saying what a w***ker the ref is and how a certain player is scum, you wouldn''t have the same complaints.  What''s the difference? 

[Normann Canary 0]

So many points, where to start... must say, this thread has actually touched a nerve with me, and I''m finding myself on a serious level, strange Nice one duncan...

GA47:

I agree with your statements on the PC Brigade, I think that PC shouldn''t be scoffed at, and there is a difference between football chants and football abuse. There is a line, and for me that is "when chants become based on the race, sexual preference or religious preference in a prejudicial way... of someone or some people" then that''s football abuse...

barclayendboy:

as GA47 said, "just having a laugh" is no reason to "abuse" someone... In America in the 1950''s they used to regularly laugh every weekend when they''d lynch a returned WWII veteran who happened to be black... they even took photos... yeah, real funny!! Boneheads are prone to laughing when their beating up a homosexual... yeah real funny... it''s not an excuse for prejudice mate... if you think it''s ok mate, perhaps you and people who hold that view shouldn''t come at all! Like I said, there''s a diff between banter and abuse, if you can''t see that, then perhaps make an effort too...

thebarclaykid:

quote: Im against racism BIGTIME!!!! however mocking a hetrosexual about being homosexual surely is not on a par with such bigotry which has caused so much death and destruction throughout the world??

Do you think then that it''s ok to say to a player that "he looks like a bl**cky, because he''s got a flat face, flat nose" just because he''s white and not black...?? No I didn''t think you would...

and I''m glad you are strongly against racism, but perhaps you might consider extending your empathy a little further, homosexuals you will find are sometimes in a worse off state than alot of other minorities these days. While the world comes to terms still with a more integrated world (in racial terms), homophobia is still on the "to do" list along with sexism... People who like Hitler, hate gays as much as Blacks and Jews, the only difference is, some are easier to pick out at a glance than others... My point here being that many homosexuals encounter difficulties growing up, unique to their sexuality, that perhaps heterosexual people cannot fully understand. I had a lot of race issues while growing up, which I find a lot of people have difficulty understanding, so I can sympathise with the gay community on this level... thus I don''t consider homophobia to be less insignificant to racial prejudice, because the outcome is the same in both cases... oppression. Ok so Le Saux, isn''t gay, but perhaps some people in the crowd are... or how do you think black people in the crowd feel, if a racist chant starts? As for hostility? Would you agree that hostility only shortens the approach of a violent outcome? Their are lines drawn with hostility, you either choose not to cross them or you do... It all comes down to respect... and I''m not saying you don''t... just making a point.


Gazza:

quote: i agree with you wholeheartedly, some of the moronic stuff chanted at games makes you wonder if certain ''fans'' have a brain..

well said...


and to anyone who thinks that sexual abuse, be it preference of sexuality or of gender, is a not on par with racism, tell that to the people who suffer everyday from the abuse of moronic idiots who "are just havin a laugh"!! The confines of a football ground are not a sanctuary for such people to do as they please, because "they''ve been doing it for 30 years"... banter to some, is abuse to others, and I''m not saying that it''s not ok to have a slanging match, perfectly ok, but as I said in my first chapter there is a difference, and there is a clear line that should not be crossed

thank

[FilletTheFishWife . 0]

maybe we should campaign for the club shop to sell yellow and green haloes. how about a slogan "For the mature and sensitive supporter" ?

[ZLF 334]

I was listening to R5 on sat night and the whole chants issue was being discussed.

They had a Dutch FA official who confirmed that the ref had the power to stop or abandon the game if the chants were in the refs mind abusive. This did happen a few weeks ago for the PSV/Den Haag game.

If our game had been in Holland Riley could have walked off as we let him know what we thought of him.
Given the reaction to the Spain game this could be the shape of things to come and its not something I would really want to lose from the game.

The humour from fans can be razor sharp(my personal fave remains the chant to the split personality of Andy Goram of ''theres only 2 Andy Gorams'') but agree that viloent prejudice and abuse must be removed.

My daughter (11) has heard all the ''inappropriate'' words before, and spoken in far more aggressive tones than she has heard at a football ground, and thats from the school playground. She is on pain of an internal Carrow Road exclusion order if she repeats any phrase out of the ground. We all want to shelter our children but the terraces mainly reflect our community. If you dont want to expose your child dont bring them to a football ground.

OTBC

[Duncan 0]

Thought I should just make one more (last!) post since the original has sparked so much comment. Firstly I don''t like making critical comments about fans or the club and at games I try to be positive and encourage the team. I often go home hoarse from singing and shouting (as do many fans) and my son and I choose to be in the Lower Barclay which we really love. I ''ve fervently supported football for 45 years since my Dad took me to stand on the terraces in Scotland and I really love Norwich City.

There will always be bad language I guess at football matches and I''m not trying to have that banned! Bringing up children is a difficult job these days and I try not to swear in front of mine to set them the right example. So yes that does include not joining in with ''the referee''s a w.....'' and the Gary Holt song  but I have no objection at all to other people singing that. It does children no harm to be exposed to swearing and sooner or later they have to make their own choices.

Football humour is a wonderful thing so, I absolutely agree, let''s not have the PC brigade take over so that we can only sit and politely clap - that would destroy so much of what we love about football atmosphere.  However sometimes it''s good to consider if everything we do as supporters is always correct and that was what the original post was all about.

[Dame to Blame 108]

TYPICAL response from the PC BRIGADE getting carried away with there emotions , why do these guys take life so seriously when was the last time you heard a racist chant at Norwich because i cant remember and rightly so . Just because i don''t find it a problem when the crowd sing about the opposition fans or players does not make me a supporter of racism sunny Jim so before you go around with your STUFF IT IN our face PC talk  think about what you are saying there is no racism at Norwich and i would be the first to say what i think if the guy next to me started singing racist songs . My god do you really thing Le saux took that stuff seriously and when the crowd sing about getting a job to the Liverpool fans do they go home totally devastated about what was sung i doubt it , Ive been called a carrot cruncher and sheep sh***er at numerous grounds laugh it off its called banter between fans ,and don''t keep quoting what happened in racist America in the 50s carrow road is a million miles away from that behavior thankfully and if you thing carrow road is bad at times go down to your local club you will hear far worse at times believe me .

[Super Shaun Carey 0]

Come on, what ever next?

What about "If I had the wings of a sparrow"

Is that offensive? Is it cruel to birds?

Homophobia chants towards Le Saux as a direct comparison to the disgraceful chants in spain has all the hallmarks of the Daily Mail letters page.

Lighten up.

Over and out!

[Normann Canary 0]

barclayendboy:

I don''t remember saying you were a racist! I was merely trying to get my point across to you, in that you reckon it''s all about having a laugh, and apparantely by your posts, regardless of anything, bar your  "fun factor"! Please read your latter posts, and in no-where does it state that you are pro or against racism, and In my response to your posts, I don''t either, I simply brought to your attention, that what you may consider fun, may not be for others, that was my only point to you. I am glad to here you are not racist and you would tell somebody what you thought if!!! Like I said my comments were not to make you out to be a racist... But if you think that football starts and ends in Norwich, as dedicated as that is, you need to broaden your views mate... Ok so we don''t get those kind of chants in Carrow, but what we''re that Spanish lot on about, Wall Street stock prices??

Why do I take life so seriusly, well you may think I get carried away like this about everything, but I don''t , just some topics like this one here, I''m actually quite casual about a lot of other areas of my life thankyou...As for emotions, don''t blag me off about voicing mine, if you are quite open to sharing yours...you''re passionate about your views, me too.. we''re both passionate about football but obviously we consider differing issues to be more important for our "fun factor" as you like to think of it. So you go ahead and sing whatever you want to sing, and I''ll continue to respond to your posts in an appropriate manner...

I wasn''t going to have another go, but what the hell... 

don''t patronize me with "sunny Jim"...sir, you may be older than I am, but perhaps I''m a little more in touch with what''s goin on in the world today...just a thought you seem to be living in the 70''s... I love disco and all, but really... "PC brigade" is a term invented by those with little mental capability to vision it''s goal for what it really is....... RESPECT......

SO with the kindest "respect"... sir...Thankyou,

I appreciate your post in reply, it only sums up my earlier thoughts

Yours Faithfully

Normann T Esq.... if you please.........................

[Normann Canary 0]

Super Shaun:

I actually only compared the two when I answered "thebarclaykids" question about whether homophobic chants were on any less level with racist one''s. I didn''t directly connect the Le Seaux incident with the Spanish incident(i think). Yes they are two different accurances, and with references to neither of them...  i do think that those types of abuse are as bad as eachother... It''s funny that people can be against racism but accept homophobia... I for the life of me don''t understand how people can make such a distinction between the two? But I think people are getting me wrong about not wanting anybody to have fun... That''s the main reason of sport...right???  anyway mate, I feel i''ll be responding a few more times so I''ll keep it short... please don''t tease the birds (i''m joking) ofcourse mate have fun, I was just wanting certain people to think a little more and about respect, that''s all

Onward Norwich City (next years sponsor, RSPCA)

[ZLF 334]

Dont agree that racism is not an issue in English football - the snakepit had a couple of ejections and, if I remember rightly, a prosecution just last season. It is on the wane,and that has to be a good thing, but it remains even at a ''friendly'' club like ours. A stern stance should continue to be taken.

However the Dutch approach is not a route we should go - its a step too far in my view - what if the ref had misheard our you fat bas..rd chant like the toffee fans did? The game abandoned in error?

OTBC

[Normann Canary 0]

Zippers:

I agree that the ceasing games and walknig off is perhaps not the best method to take right now, because like I think somebody brought up before, that system will only be abused (like everything else seems to be) ... sorry... 

There is no easy answer, and there will be a lot of trial and error methods applied and abbandoned no doubt. But that doesn''t mean we should not bother... anyway, thanks for the heads up on the ejections and alike, I didn''t know that... it''s a pity... but yes that stance should remain...

Ummm, me and my bold statements, always get me into trouble.........

Another three points ths weekend people....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stephen Frys Evil Twin 0]

But Ashley Cole is actually black, whereas Graeme Le Saux isn''t actually gay.

That, I would say, is a fundamental difference between the two types of abuse (if you can call it that iro GLS).

Comparisons between the two are therefore pointless as there is no comparison! The "jibes" aimed at GLS on Saturday were made in jest, and, considering GLS''s marrital situation, completely inoffensive!

Whereas the chants aimed at Ashley Cole etc. were absolutely dispicable.

I know the chants aimed at GLS were tainted with homophobia, but strangely it seems that Duncan took more offense than anyone else did.

[bananaman 0]

That''s utterly blinkered Dom.

So - Graeme Le Saux isn''t gay. Newsflash! But what about the people in the crowd?

Not all football fans are heterosexual, you know. I know a couple of gay people who stand on terraces, ok not at Norwich, but all the same.

How do you think they feel with close to 10,000 people making out that being gay is some kind of embarrassing disease? Something we can all take the p*ss out of?

It''s not just the player that you''re aiming the taunts at, just the same as it wasn''t just Ashley Cole that was being taunted - it was because he was BLACK, therefore aimed at ALL black people.

[FilletTheFishWife . 0]

Personally, i don''t think your opinion on the GLS song on Saturday should differ according to whether GLS is gay or not. its the same song regardless of the target.

To me, it all depends on where you draw the line and i don''t object to that particular song. Its hardly as vitriolic as the sort of racism that prevailed in Spain (in my opinion).

[Worthy Nigelton<br><br><br><br><br>Evening News Sports Page Headline 8th August 2007:<br><br>Henderson joins Dereham Town. 0]

This is a difficult debate really because if you ban all sorts of "predjudice" from football grounds then you would destroy the whole atmosphere. We wouldn''t be able to single out Ipswich fans for abuse as this would be deemed predjudice.

However, I can see the other side to the argument and this is valid. But I don''t think its fair to compare GLS chant to the racist abuse in Spain. GLS chant was in jest and light-hearted, the same as a ginger remark or a fat remark is. Black people have been persecuted for thousands of years so its a lot more about history and oppresion than a remark about somebody''s sexuality. Football grounds are full of testosterone-full, lager-fuelled yobs and they don''t always think about what they''re saying, but cut them a little slack - I don''t think they intended any menace in the chant like there was intended in Spain.

[Pyro Pete 2,353]

Bigotry is alive and well at Carrow Rd it would seem. From where I was sitting in the Jarrold Stand (near the River End) I didn''t hear the homophobic remarks made towards Graeme Le Saux. But I''ll take your word for it Duncan, and I agree with you in that I think it''s disgraceful.

Racism still goes on at Norwich City, as I discovered when a bloke behind me started shouting "You dirty n***er! You black b*****d!" at Jay Boothroyd during the Blackburn game. I sorted him out, and will be more than willing to sort out you hate filled, bigoted morons who chant homophobic remarks.

Only a couple of seasons ago I recall much of the lower Barclay chanting "You''re just a bunch of Gypos" at one set of visiting supporters. I''m sure they were the same ones who at school would call someone a "dirty Jew" if they picked up a 2p piece they had dropped. Gays, Gypsies, Jews, blacks, they''re all fair game to these hate filled bigots - just as they were to the Nazis.

Years ago I recall Graeme Le Saux getting irrate with Robbie Fowler after he continually taunted him with homophobic remarks and gestures during a Chelsea/Liverpool game. It clearly effected him back then, but to his credit he''s learnt to deal with mindless abuse now. Can you imagine how Graeme Le Saux''s wife explains all this to their young children though? Probably much the same as Ian Wright will struggle to explain to his adopted son why the Spanish made monkey noises at him last week.

Finally, it is worth noting that often it''s only people who are insecure in their own sexuality that make homophobic remarks. Why else would they feel threatened by someone else''s sexual preference? So maybe we should just feel sorry for these people.