The HBOS situation...... (for tipster)

[Tipster101 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know. So now thats out of the way...your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall. My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall? 

[/quote]

• Leeds went into administration with £35m of debts, and failed to find £10m investment to save them from administrators. Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north and this was prior to the credit crunch. Nobody saved them from administration.

• Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, owing £2.5m in tax. No businessman came forward to them, to the contrary, the consortium that bought them out were told that it was too late to pay the tax bill and avoid administration. The businessmen offered to clear the debt, however they instead got the penalties that leave them bottom of League Two. 

• Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

• If Delia was prepared to invest more money, then should would also be willing to reduce her asking price by the appropriate amount.

• I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

• What assets? what assets would you sell?  The sale of the LSE land at the current value would likely result in a loss of money, not enough to pay the finance for that land, thus we would have to continue repayments on a piece of land that we would then have no rights too. The sale of the very few players who could command a fee would result in relegation.  If we lost David Bell, David Marshall and Sammy Clingan for example, we would just about find the money. It is then of course likely that we would be relegated to League One, and lose that money all over again in lost TV revenues and lost gate reciepts.

• We are NOT a large business. Woolworths is a large business, MFI is a large business, Zavvi is a large business. They are all close to going under. You are clearly not a very good accountant if you believe that the size of a business matters, its return on investment and debt ratios, and we have no return on investment. I think you will find that we are a small - medium size business operating in one location. A private investor is not a hope right now, a fan is our only hope, and the only one with money that we know of is Peter Cullum.

• The government have no say on the matter, unless they change the regulations that relate to every football club in the country. Since Lord Mawhinney claims that up to half of football clubs are close to administration in the next few years, this may result in too much of a risk. There is a limit to government intervention, and the country already has record debt, following borrowings to reduce the tax rate and an investment into the financial markets. The ''government'' is simply employing bankers to run HBOS, to protect the interests of the economy, the housing markets, the employment rates. Football does not come into the parliamentary equation I am afraid. Why save Norwich? Why not the other 6 or 7 clubs to go into administration in the last few months?

• You may work for a big firm, but you are still close minded and typical of too many Norwich fans.

[/quote]sorry just seen this. We most certainly are a big business, anyone with any knowledge on this subject will tell you this. hint the accounts are audited accounts. now look up audit law and see what types of companies need auditing and what constitutes a large company. PS: woolworths and MFI are no longer large companies ;) just a joke to prove i am taking this light heartedly and not getting aggresive and abusive in my post like certain people.[/quote]In case you didn''t see I actually tried to change the subject, since we are boring people....But what the hell does auditing have to do with your comment "Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall?"My point is that if Woolworths, MFI and even American banks can go bankrupt then so can a relatively small football club.There is no getting away from the fact that, good with figures or not, nobody could ever say that any football club couldnt go bankrupt with a £2.5million shortfall.[/quote]people wouldnt get jobs in my sector if that was the case.as for the audit comment - look up audit law and see what types of companies need an audit. most small companies do not (barring certain anomylies such as charities), large companies most certainly do. that was my point.i''ve quite enjoyed this debate too, the world would not be as advanced if discussions like this did not take place and everyone agreed.

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"][quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Tipster101"]Wes, first things first I never patronised you, if you reread it you will see I was joking about exams meaning something, hence the ;)you will then see that you go on to attempt to patronise me in your post by stating I work for a small local firm, when I infact don''t and I work for the 5th largest accounting firm in the UK.You also state incorrectly that i dont know certain aspects of the situation, which in fact I do know. So now thats out of the way...your hypothesis is correct but it does not take into account any other factors merely the ones that support your argument, and you even state the various places money will come from thus destroying the argument that the club will go into administration. NCFC will never be forced into administration by the 2.5m loan recall. There are so many, and i mean SO MANY ways to get round it only a very mediocre businessman/director etc would end up getting the firm into such a position as to be forced to go into administration due to a 2.5m recall. My argument in all this is that NCFC will not go into administration as a result of the 2.5m loan recall, and nothing more. And you seem to think I''m wrong? Do you think the government would force a football club at this time into admin over such a relatively small amount? especially after recent gov announcements that you should know about being in the trade.Do you not think Delia would put in some money to stop the situation in the short term?Do you not think Cullum would stay true to his word and donate the small amount needed to stop your disaster?Do you not think some assets could be sold to stop the situation?Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall? 

[/quote]

• Leeds went into administration with £35m of debts, and failed to find £10m investment to save them from administrators. Leeds is supposed to be the financial capital of the north and this was prior to the credit crunch. Nobody saved them from administration.

• Luton Town went into administration in November 2007, owing £2.5m in tax. No businessman came forward to them, to the contrary, the consortium that bought them out were told that it was too late to pay the tax bill and avoid administration. The businessmen offered to clear the debt, however they instead got the penalties that leave them bottom of League Two. 

• Ipswich Town went into administration as the direct result of the collapse of the ITV deal, nobody saved them from administration, the collapse of he deal represented a shortfall in budget of £2m. The same potential shortfall in Norwichs budget.

• If Delia was prepared to invest more money, then should would also be willing to reduce her asking price by the appropriate amount.

• I think there is a possibility that Cullum would help, but thats our ONLY hope.

• What assets? what assets would you sell?  The sale of the LSE land at the current value would likely result in a loss of money, not enough to pay the finance for that land, thus we would have to continue repayments on a piece of land that we would then have no rights too. The sale of the very few players who could command a fee would result in relegation.  If we lost David Bell, David Marshall and Sammy Clingan for example, we would just about find the money. It is then of course likely that we would be relegated to League One, and lose that money all over again in lost TV revenues and lost gate reciepts.

• We are NOT a large business. Woolworths is a large business, MFI is a large business, Zavvi is a large business. They are all close to going under. You are clearly not a very good accountant if you believe that the size of a business matters, its return on investment and debt ratios, and we have no return on investment. I think you will find that we are a small - medium size business operating in one location. A private investor is not a hope right now, a fan is our only hope, and the only one with money that we know of is Peter Cullum.

• The government have no say on the matter, unless they change the regulations that relate to every football club in the country. Since Lord Mawhinney claims that up to half of football clubs are close to administration in the next few years, this may result in too much of a risk. There is a limit to government intervention, and the country already has record debt, following borrowings to reduce the tax rate and an investment into the financial markets. The ''government'' is simply employing bankers to run HBOS, to protect the interests of the economy, the housing markets, the employment rates. Football does not come into the parliamentary equation I am afraid. Why save Norwich? Why not the other 6 or 7 clubs to go into administration in the last few months?

• You may work for a big firm, but you are still close minded and typical of too many Norwich fans.

[/quote]sorry just seen this. We most certainly are a big business, anyone with any knowledge on this subject will tell you this. hint the accounts are audited accounts. now look up audit law and see what types of companies need auditing and what constitutes a large company. PS: woolworths and MFI are no longer large companies ;) just a joke to prove i am taking this light heartedly and not getting aggresive and abusive in my post like certain people.[/quote]In case you didn''t see I actually tried to change the subject, since we are boring people....But what the hell does auditing have to do with your comment "Do you really think a small amount of 2.5m will lead to such a large business'' downfall?"My point is that if Woolworths, MFI and even American banks can go bankrupt then so can a relatively small football club.There is no getting away from the fact that, good with figures or not, nobody could ever say that any football club couldn''t go bankrupt with a £2.5million shortfall.[/quote]people wouldnt get jobs in my sector if that was the case.as for the audit comment - look up audit law and see what types of companies need an audit. most small companies do not (barring certain anomylies such as charities), large companies most certainly do. that was my point.i''ve quite enjoyed this debate too, the world would not be as advanced if discussions like this did not take place and everyone agreed.[/quote]Good good, nothing wrong with a good solid argument sometimes.... I think that its the best way to learn.Anyway, I all debated up.... and I fancy an early night, I have real estate things to do in the morning and you have accounting things to do ....To summarise, I trust your opinion and hope very much that you are correct in your analysis of the accounts and the situation....Toodle pip.

[Shack Attack 0]

[quote user="macdougalls perm"]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)][/quote]

Ha ha! [:D]

[/quote]I got halfway down the first page before I strated losing the will to live. I know I should respect posters rights to talk about whatever they want but sometimes I do wonder whether they actually like football that much, such is the scarcity of any comment about what happens on the pitch.Tell you what Mac, I''ll set you a challenge. If you can start a thread offering some tactical insight that might lead us to beating the filth on Sunday that gets as many posts as this one I''ll seek you out next time I get down to CR and buy you at least one beer [B]

[SuperWesIrishWizard 0]

[quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="macdougalls perm"]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)][/quote]

Ha ha! [:D]

[/quote]I got halfway down the first page before I strated losing the will to live. I know I should respect posters rights to talk about whatever they want but sometimes I do wonder whether they actually like football that much, such is the scarcity of any comment about what happens on the pitch.Tell you what Mac, I''ll set you a challenge. If you can start a thread offering some tactical insight that might lead us to beating the filth on Sunday that gets as many posts as this one I''ll seek you out next time I get down to CR and buy you at least one beer [B][/quote]The future of our football club financially has everything to do with what will happen on the pitch, especially if we have to sell the few half decent players that remain....

[macdougalls perm 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Shack Attack"][quote user="macdougalls perm"]

[quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)]
[/quote]

Ha ha! [:D]

[/quote]

I got halfway down the first page before I strated losing the will to live. I know I should respect posters rights to talk about whatever they want but sometimes I do wonder whether they actually like football that much, such is the scarcity of any comment about what happens on the pitch.

Tell you what Mac, I''ll set you a challenge. If you can start a thread offering some tactical insight that might lead us to beating the filth on Sunday that gets as many posts as this one I''ll seek you out next time I get down to CR and buy you at least one beer [B]
[/quote]

The future of our football club financially has everything to do with what will happen on the pitch, especially if we have to sell the few half decent players that remain....
[/quote]

Obviously, but it is an amusing observation. [:)] 

[still holding out for new heroes 0]

So to summarise, we may or may not go into administration, but there''s certainly no money to strengthen the squad (or even maintain it at it''s current level when the loans go home) come January or the summer, in short we''re going down, if not this season then next.

[Yellow Rider 0]

The loan is to be rolled over anyway (so I was told) and negotiations to conlude that are well advanced so all this argument between two so called accountancy and property ''specialists'' is probably irrelevant anyway (at the moment). Have either of you offered your professional services to the football club? I''m sure they would appreciate your input!  

[Syteanric 1]

[quote user="Tipster101"]

 

lol if you want to believe that, you can do. I would hope, being a chartered accountant would mean i do know what I''m talking about and I havent passed all those exams for nothing ;) . [/quote]

not being funny but that counts for nothing.. does being  Driving Instructor make you a perfect driver? Does being a copper make you immune to commiting crime?

jas :)

[Canary Man of Kent 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="Tipster101"]

 

lol if you want to believe that, you can do. I would hope, being a chartered accountant would mean i do know what I''m talking about and I havent passed all those exams for nothing ;) . [/quote]

not being funny but that counts for nothing.. does being  Driving Instructor make you a perfect driver? Does being a copper make you immune to commiting crime?

jas :)

[/quote]

Using your first analogy then, does being an accountant make you perfect at accounting? No, but it makes us better at it than you. Applying your second analogy, does being an accountant make you immune to commiting ''criminal'' accounting mistakes? No, but less likely than you.

So as you can see, your analogies are total gibberish. I''m all in favour of a good analogy, but frankly, yours are rubbish and you clealy lack the intellect to pass any accountancy exams.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

[quote user="SimonOTBC"][quote user="jas the barclay king"][quote user="Tipster101"]

 

lol if you want to believe that, you can do. I would hope, being a chartered accountant would mean i do know what I''m talking about and I havent passed all those exams for nothing ;) . [/quote]

not being funny but that counts for nothing.. does being  Driving Instructor make you a perfect driver? Does being a copper make you immune to commiting crime?

jas :)

[/quote]

Using your first analogy then, does being an accountant make you perfect at accounting? No, but it makes us better at it than you. Applying your second analogy, does being an accountant make you immune to commiting ''criminal'' accounting mistakes? No, but less likely than you.

So as you can see, your analogies are total gibberish. I''m all in favour of a good analogy, but frankly, yours are rubbish and you clealy lack the intellect to pass any accountancy exams.

[/quote]

Ahhh... but does your alleged superior intellect make your post worth more reading than Jas'' [:S]

 

[Canary Man of Kent 0]

You tell me. It should at least make it more accurate.

[Desert Fox 0]

I think Jas has made a valid point.

The wider banking, accounting and commercial property sectors have hardly covered themselves in glory. Being a qualified member of one of those sectors (as indeed I am) does not make your views any more correct than anyone elses. This is a discussion board where everyones views are allowed to be heard and debated.

Also, dont forget that we are delaing with the matter of opinions and not facts regarding what is a private company which has excercised no discretion whatsover in providing additional financial information (i.e. segmental reporting would be incredibly handy to know).

[Bovril 219]

I have to say, I''m currently studying ''Accounting & Finance'' with one of my modules this year being ''Auditing''...It makes it much more interesting when talking about Norwich in the same topic, so carry on tipster and superwes I''m learning every post!

[Desert Fox 0]

For those that think this thread is a bit boring, I think the thread title does not exactly misrepresent what the discussion is about! There are a huge number of more football focused and frivolous threads on here, so why waste your time complaining about someone elses right to free speech on a subject which is probably equally critical to our on the pitch performance as Roders increasingly erratic team selections. There is enough room for everybody on here or failing that there is always other discussion boards where posts of more than one sentence or too many syallables are generally frowned upon.

[Canary Man of Kent 0]

[quote user="Desert Fox"]

I think Jas has made a valid point.

The wider banking, accounting and commercial property sectors have hardly covered themselves in glory. Being a qualified member of one of those sectors (as indeed I am) does not make your views any more correct than anyone elses. This is a discussion board where everyones views are allowed to be heard and debated.

Also, dont forget that we are delaing with the matter of opinions and not facts regarding what is a private company which has excercised no discretion whatsover in providing additional financial information (i.e. segmental reporting would be incredibly handy to know).

[/quote]

I never said he didn''t, I merely stated his analogies were poor.

What are you referring to when you suggest the accounting sector hasn''t covered its self in glory? I''m not necessarily disagreeing, just curious to know what you''re getting at.

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Evil Monkey"][quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)][/quote]Indeed... an argument between accountants is about as exciting as staging a reconstruction of the invasion of Normandy with... erm, with - well.... accountants!  Okay, bad analogy... accountants are boring, you get the gist... [;)]Anyone wanna talk about environmental economics? Nope, thought not....[/quote]Yeah why not..... did you know that Red Square in Moscow represents the area of solar panels needed to power the whole of Europe?I have plenty more of them if you need them![/quote]That''s not really to do with environmental economics though, is it, its just a titbit of information.  I was thinking more along the lines of starting an argu... I mean... starting a debate about environmental taxes, paying to protect the environment, etc.... no one bit, though, so let''s keep on arguing about accounting instead.... [:|]

[Desert Fox 0]

Simon,

This is off topic so I will keep it brief as I dont want to be accused of being more boring than I am by the discussion board police.

I was immediately thinking about the failure to stand up to the banks (who are their biggest clients) with regards to reporting the true and fair value in recent accounts. Further back, in my opinion virtually anything audited by AA to fiascos like the Rover Group. From my own experience, the accounting industry is way to close to the management of compnaies who have appointed them rather than shareholders on whose behalf they are ultimately acting.

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="SimonOTBC"]I never said he didn''t, I merely stated his analogies were poor.[/quote]And then merely forgot that you added his words were "gibberish" and that he "lacked the intellect".  [:$]

[Evil Monkey 52]

[quote user="Desert Fox"]

Simon,

This is off topic so I will keep it brief as I dont want to be accused of being more boring than I am by the discussion board police.

I was immediately thinking about the failure to stand up to the banks (who are their biggest clients) with regards to reporting the true and fair value in recent accounts. Further back, in my opinion virtually anything audited by AA to fiascos like the Rover Group. From my own experience, the accounting industry is way to close to the management of compnaies who have appointed them rather than shareholders on whose behalf they are ultimately acting.

[/quote]My step-mum is an accountant (and Scottish too, imagine how boring she is!) and for years my Dad has described accountancy as "turning a science into an art-form"...

[Canary Man of Kent 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="SimonOTBC"]I never said he didn''t, I merely stated his analogies were poor.[/quote]And then merely forgot that you added his words were "gibberish" and that he "lacked the intellect".  [:$][/quote]

Which were solely in reference to his analogies. I never said he didn''t have a point with regards to people thinking their qualifications put them in a position to discuss things when it seems unlikely anyone is in charge of the full facts, (I still think Tipster might be though).

[Ian Ross 0]

[quote user="Desert Fox"]

This is off topic so I will keep it brief as I dont want to be accused of being more boring than I am by the discussion board police.

[/quote]

[|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)]

You''re nicked sunshine!

[Desert Fox 0]

[quote user="The Messageboard Police"][quote user="Desert Fox"]

This is off topic so I will keep it brief as I dont want to be accused of being more boring than I am by the discussion board police.

[/quote]

[|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)][|-)]

You''re nicked sunshine!

[/quote]

Guilty as charged! Although in mitigation I did want to be seen ducking a direct question. What do you say, let me off with a cuation for a first offence?

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="SuperWesIrishWizard"][quote user="Evil Monkey"][quote user="Shack Attack"]This is fun isn''t it [|-)][/quote]Indeed... an argument between accountants is about as exciting as staging a reconstruction of the invasion of Normandy with... erm, with - well.... accountants!  Okay, bad analogy... accountants are boring, you get the gist... [;)]Anyone wanna talk about environmental economics? Nope, thought not....[/quote]Yeah why not..... did you know that Red Square in Moscow represents the area of solar panels needed to power the whole of Europe?I have plenty more of them if you need them![/quote]Oh dear sorry Wes that''s just a myth.Red Square is approx 70m X 330mPhotovoltaic solar panels (typical type) run at about 10-15% efficiency and can produce 100-150W max per square metre.Multi junction solar cells are the most efficient at a lab produced efficieny of 40.7% or 400W per square metre.Being optimistic and in real life there''s no way you can get 400W per M2 but I''ll use the highest available empirically proven output.....70X330=23100m223100X407=9401700W or 9.4MWSizewell B alone produces 1188MW to account for approx 3% of UK usageThe mathematics tell me that if you did actually pave Red Square with solar panels using the most technologically advanced panels available running at maximum efficiency with 24 hours sunshine per day then you would be able to generate enough electricity to provide 0.00023737% of the UK''s demand which is certainly enough to power the lights, stereos, tv''s and xboxes in my childrens bedroom, you might even manage a 2-3 hundred property village but Europe? No chance I''m afraid.

[macdougalls perm 0]

Cromwell''s fiercely avowed providentialism was no more than the pragmatic appropriation of a teleological ideology in an attempt to legitimate and lend moral succour to the Parliamentarian forces under his command. Discuss.  [:D][:D]  

[Desert Fox 0]

The Prisoner,

Surely Evil Monkey meant this as a joke as surely nobody is stupid enough to have believed this, even without your helpful calculations.

[macdougalls perm 0]

[quote user="Desert Fox"]

The Prisoner,

Surely Evil Monkey meant this as a joke as surely nobody is stupid enough to have believed this, even without your helpful calculations.

[/quote]

Ha ha, what a brilliant thread - it''s gone all over the place. PMSL. [:D] 

[Desert Fox 0]

macdougall''s perm,

You obviously have not seen the film Good Will Hunting have you.

I assume that this thread has now expired its useful natural life.

[The Fish Seller 0]

[quote user="macdougalls perm"][quote user="Desert Fox"]

The Prisoner,

Surely Evil Monkey meant this as a joke as surely nobody is stupid enough to have believed this, even without your helpful calculations.

[/quote]

Ha ha, what a brilliant thread - it''s gone all over the place. PMSL.

[/quote]Couldn''t help it Desert Fox I''m in a real muddle with numbers today you see I went to London last night to watch the Alabama 3 yet there were between a minimum 5 and maximum 16 artists onstage at any time and whilst trying to work out how 5 or 9 or 12 or 16 could possibly equal 3 I accidentally typed in the formulae for red square solar panel output into my $1m pcm ''Makeitup Pro'' TM statistic generating software.This software also calculated that approx 42.6% of Pink ''Un readers would actually believe that red square could power Europe if left unproven and that of the remaining 212% a whopping 95.6% are just happy to continue using the very large hamsters in wheels to power the Country.I have obviously tried to calculate our chance of victory this weekend but the software keeps crashing.[:(]

[blahblahblah 2]

[quote]This software also calculated that approx 42.6% of Pink ''Un readers would actually believe that red square could power Europe if left unproven and that of the remaining 212% a whopping 95.6% are just happy to continue using the very large hamsters in wheels to power the Country.[/quote]

Of the 42.6 % who would believe it if left unproven, 99.9 % of those will carry on believing it anyway, unless the myth can be disproven by actually trying it.

Shall I book you a couple of tickets for Moscow ?

[lucky green trainers 0]

[quote user="Desert Fox"]

Simon,

This is off topic so I will keep it brief as I dont want to be accused of being more boring than I am by the discussion board police.

I was immediately thinking about the failure to stand up to the banks (who are their biggest clients) with regards to reporting the true and fair value in recent accounts. Further back, in my opinion virtually anything audited by AA to fiascos like the Rover Group. From my own experience, the accounting industry is way to close to the management of compnaies who have appointed them rather than shareholders on whose behalf they are ultimately acting.

[/quote]from a bigger perspective, how about enron and the multitude of evasions (frauds) committed then and since in the ''shadow banking sector'' that is unregulated, untaxed and offshored - this being arguably the reason for our present woes in the primary banking and capital markets - "the worst banking crisis since WW1" the dotcom and credit crunch ''south seas bubbles'' are the worst frauds in 200 years imo - so yeah, the financial services system has hardly covered itself in glory has it???  how much has been lost??? £4-8 trillion??? ask yourselves - where has the money gone???  why is my private pension worth jack??? why will my house be worth maybe 50% less from peak to trough???  our loss is someones gain, make no mistake...