The right kind of racism?

[Naturalcynic 631]

I look forward to some of our more leftward-leaning commenters attempting to defend the blatant racism on display here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/news/slave-play-kit-harrington-black-out-night-b2504074.html

Needless to say, had the boot been on the other foot (audience restricted to those identifying as white) then it would quite correctly have been condemned by every right-thinking person, and those involved with organising and advertising it would almost certainly find themselves in front of a judge.  So how on earth is this being permitted?

Edited February 29 by Naturalcynic

[Herman 9,779]

On first read it stinks to be honest. 

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

I look forward to some of our more leftward-leaning commenters attempting to defend the blatant racism on display here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/news/slave-play-kit-harrington-black-out-night-b2504074.html

Needless to say, had the boot been on the other foot (audience restricted to those identifying as white) then it would quite correctly have been condemned by every right-thinking person, and those involved with organising and advertising it would almost certainly find themselves in front of a judge.  So how on earth is this being permitted?

That's where you are wrong. I doubt very few if any will defend this.

Now back to 'right kind of racism'.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,189]

I'm a  non theatre-goer, but I'm surprised at the perceived need for this in the theatre industry 

And I'd question the legality. It seems a bit crazy 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,551]

5 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

I look forward to some of our more leftward-leaning commenters attempting to defend the blatant racism on display here:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/theatre-dance/news/slave-play-kit-harrington-black-out-night-b2504074.html

Needless to say, had the boot been on the other foot (audience restricted to those identifying as white) then it would quite correctly have been condemned by every right-thinking person, and those involved with organising and advertising it would almost certainly find themselves in front of a judge.  So how on earth is this being permitted?

I'm black. I was just assigned this horrible pasty pinky white skin at birth; it's not who I am.

[Fen Canary 829]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I'm black. I was just assigned this horrible pasty pinky white skin at birth; it's not who I am.

That’s why I spend two weeks around the Mediterranean every summer, trying to regain some of that dark skinned heritage 

[Deptford Yellow 258]

It’s just two performances ….

[Fen Canary 829]

1 minute ago, Deptford Yellow said:

It’s just two performances ….

That makes it ok does it? 

[Deptford Yellow 258]

Well, puts it in context maybe?

I’m not defending it as such, but I think minority experience is not the same as majority experience and if they feel they want or need some space to explore that then I’m not going to be affronted by that … There’s a lot going on out there in the world that I ‘d rather save my ire for ……

[Fen Canary 829]

1 minute ago, Deptford Yellow said:

Well, puts it in context maybe?

I’m not defending it as such, but I think minority experience is not the same as majority experience and if they feel they want or need some space to explore that then I’m not going to be affronted by that … There’s a lot going on out there in the world that I ‘d rather save my ire for ……

Racism is racism, whoever is the target. If somebody wanted one night in their local pub to have no ethnic minorities let in would that be ok? Why is it ok to exclude and discriminate against one ethnicity and not another? 

[cambridgeshire canary 6,735]

Nothing says a modern, diverse Britain more than.. Segregation?

Edited March 1 by cambridgeshire canary

[sonyc 5,526]

7 minutes ago, Deptford Yellow said:

Well, puts it in context maybe?

I’m not defending it as such, but I think minority experience is not the same as majority experience and if they feel they want or need some space to explore that then I’m not going to be affronted by that … There’s a lot going on out there in the world that I ‘d rather save my ire for ……

I am pleased someone has said the kind of thing I was feeling reading that. As someone who has been subject to racism many times (and continue to be....from time to time...the sort people rarely talk about - darker skinned against lighter skinned) then I tried to put myself in the minds of that audience. I find it uncomfortable as a white person, and I am quite sure I would even feel slightly threatened by it if I was not only reading this but stood outside the theatre. It doesn't make it 'right'. But nor do I think it is so 'wrong'.

My core point (before the usuals jump on me) is that don't we all want to live with and amongst people who are like us? Where we live, which circles we socialise with (which have the closest fit with us culturally and psychologically)? As Norwich fans we don't wish to be with away fans on the whole (unless you attend a Rugby League match and you're all together and give each other banter which never or rarely gets personal). We feel comfortable amongst our own (and those with similar political views).

This may not even be about white people. What it is about is power (I think). It is challenging ("we can do this now"). For decades black people have had little voice.That much is clear. The same for women (golf clubs and so on). 

Perhaps the book "White Frailty" is a useful source. Paper thin skins. 

I don't like this kind of thing but there we are. Am I only of such a minority position who believes there is a (massive) context surely?

 

[Naturalcynic 631]

24 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I am pleased someone has said the kind of thing I was feeling reading that. As someone who has been subject to racism many times (and continue to be....from time to time...the sort people rarely talk about - darker skinned against lighter skinned) then I tried to put myself in the minds of that audience. I find it uncomfortable as a white person, and I am quite sure I would even feel slightly threatened by it if I was not only reading this but stood outside the theatre. It doesn't make it 'right'. But nor do I think it is so 'wrong'.

My core point (before the usuals jump on me) is that don't we all want to live with and amongst people who are like us? Where we live, which circles we socialise with (which have the closest fit with us culturally and psychologically)? As Norwich fans we don't wish to be with away fans on the whole (unless you attend a Rugby League match and you're all together and give each other banter which never or rarely gets personal). We feel comfortable amongst our own (and those with similar political views).

This may not even be about white people. What it is about is power (I think). It is challenging ("we can do this now"). For decades black people have had little voice.That much is clear. The same for women (golf clubs and so on). 

Perhaps the book "White Frailty" is a useful source. Paper thin skins. 

I don't like this kind of thing but there we are. Am I only of such a minority position who believes there is a (massive) context surely?

 

As I said in the title to the thread, perhaps this is considered by some to be the right sort of racism, an acceptable version of discrimination on the grounds of skin colour.  Personally I think any mealy-mouthed attempt at justification is plain double standards, unless of course they’d also support the idea of, for example, whites only nights in restaurants, or boarding houses saying no blacks, no dogs, no Irish.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

37 minutes ago, sonyc said:

I am pleased someone has said the kind of thing I was feeling reading that. As someone who has been subject to racism many times (and continue to be....from time to time...the sort people rarely talk about - darker skinned against lighter skinned) then I tried to put myself in the minds of that audience. I find it uncomfortable as a white person, and I am quite sure I would even feel slightly threatened by it if I was not only reading this but stood outside the theatre. It doesn't make it 'right'. But nor do I think it is so 'wrong'.

My core point (before the usuals jump on me) is that don't we all want to live with and amongst people who are like us? Where we live, which circles we socialise with (which have the closest fit with us culturally and psychologically)? As Norwich fans we don't wish to be with away fans on the whole (unless you attend a Rugby League match and you're all together and give each other banter which never or rarely gets personal). We feel comfortable amongst our own (and those with similar political views).

This may not even be about white people. What it is about is power (I think). It is challenging ("we can do this now"). For decades black people have had little voice.That much is clear. The same for women (golf clubs and so on). 

Perhaps the book "White Frailty" is a useful source. Paper thin skins. 

I don't like this kind of thing but there we are. Am I only of such a minority position who believes there is a (massive) context surely?q

 

I've always said you're the most dangerous person on this forum.  This post is an example of why. 

[Herman 9,779]

12 minutes ago, Rock The Boat said:

I've always said you're the most dangerous person on this forum.  This post is an example of why. 

You could try and debate the points rather than be your usual nasty self. Just an idea. 

[horsefly 4,301]

2 hours ago, Deptford Yellow said:

Well, puts it in context maybe?

I’m not defending it as such, but I think minority experience is not the same as majority experience and if they feel they want or need some space to explore that then I’m not going to be affronted by that … There’s a lot going on out there in the world that I ‘d rather save my ire for ……

Spot on! People of all colours are welcome to the vast majority of other performances of the play. The play itself directly confronts the dreadful exploitation, abuse, and murder of millions of black people by white oppressors. To reserve a couple of nights for black only audiences for people of colour who would find it difficult to sit with white people given the subject matter, troubles me not one iota. Likewise if a play about rape was to reserve a couple of performances for women only audiences, I as a man would also have no problem whatsoever. 

[Naturalcynic 631]

9 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Spot on! People of all colours are welcome to the vast majority of other performances of the play. The play itself directly confronts the dreadful exploitation, abuse, and murder of millions of black people by white oppressors. To reserve a couple of nights for black only audiences for people of colour who would find it difficult to sit with white people given the subject matter, troubles me not one iota. Likewise if a play about rape was to reserve a couple of performances for women only audiences, I as a man would also have no problem whatsoever. 

So in essence you’re in favour of racism if it’s the right kind of racism.  

[Naturalcynic 631]

20 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

That's where you are wrong. I doubt very few if any will defend this.

Now back to 'right kind of racism'.

Sadly, but predictably, some are coming out of the woodwork.

[horsefly 4,301]

1 minute ago, Naturalcynic said:

So in essence you’re in favour of racism if it’s the right kind of racism.  

It's not racism. People of ALL colours are welcome to see the play. Reserving a couple of performances for black only audiences, given the nature of the issues directly confronted, simply shows sensitivity to the trauma slavery still evokes. I shall endeavour to see the play myself if I get the chance, but I certainly wouldn't attempt to force my way in on the couple of nights reserved for a black only audience on some feigned principle. If a play that dealt explicitly with the issue of rape reserved some performances for women only audiences would you insist on forcing your way in claiming equality for men?

[horsefly 4,301]

7 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Sadly, but predictably, some are coming out of the woodwork.

Sadly, but predictably the usual unimaginative bigots are seeking to exploit division rather than show understanding of the lives and perspectives of others who have been victims of prejudice.

[Naturalcynic 631]

3 minutes ago, horsefly said:

It's not racism. People of ALL colours are welcome to see the play. Reserving a couple of performances for black only audiences, given the nature of the issues directly confronted, simply shows sensitivity to the trauma slavery still evokes. I shall endeavour to see the play myself if I get the chance, but I certainly wouldn't attempt to force my way in on the couple of nights reserved for a black only audience on some feigned principle. If a play that dealt explicitly with the issue of rape reserved some performances for women only audiences would you insist on forcing your way in claiming equality for men?

I think we’ll have to agree to differ on that!

[Naturalcynic 631]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Sadly, but predictably the usual unimaginative bigots are seeking to exploit division rather than show understanding of the lives and perspectives of others who have been victims of prejudice.

Black people living in the UK were not and are not victims of slavery!  And resorting to labelling me a bigot really is pathetic.  After all, I’m not the one condoning a clear case of racial discrimination.

Edited March 1 by Naturalcynic

[horsefly 4,301]

25 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

I think we’ll have to agree to differ on that!

Well f**K me! Life is full of surprises. 

So answer this question: Can you go to see this play yourself if you so wish?

The answer, btw, is yes. NO white person is being prevented from seeing this play. So please explain how it constitutes racism to reserve just 2 nights for black only audiences. Their reasons for making those sessions available couldn't be clearer and have nothing to do with racism.

 

 

Edited March 1 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,301]

20 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Black people living in the UK were not and are not victims of slavery!  And resorting to labelling me a bigot really is pathetic.  After all, I’m not the one condoning a clear case of racial discrimination.

Britain traded 2.3 million slaves. When the Slavery Abolition Act was passed, there were 46,000 slave owners in this country. Black people clearly WERE victims of slavery in this country in their tens of thousands. The majority of the current black population can trace ancestors who were enslaved by the British either here or in other parts of the empire. On what planet do you exist? 

And resorting to labelling me as "coming out of the woodwork" really is pathetic (see why I called you a bigot now?).

And I also see you have refused to answer the question asking whether you would object to a play about rape reserving a couple of nights for women only audiences. 

Edited March 1 by horsefly

[Herman 9,779]

2 hours ago, Deptford Yellow said:

Well, puts it in context maybe?

I’m not defending it as such, but I think minority experience is not the same as majority experience and if they feel they want or need some space to explore that then I’m not going to be affronted by that … There’s a lot going on out there in the world that I ‘d rather save my ire for ……

 

2 hours ago, sonyc said:

I am pleased someone has said the kind of thing I was feeling reading that. As someone who has been subject to racism many times (and continue to be....from time to time...the sort people rarely talk about - darker skinned against lighter skinned) then I tried to put myself in the minds of that audience. I find it uncomfortable as a white person, and I am quite sure I would even feel slightly threatened by it if I was not only reading this but stood outside the theatre. It doesn't make it 'right'. But nor do I think it is so 'wrong'.

My core point (before the usuals jump on me) is that don't we all want to live with and amongst people who are like us? Where we live, which circles we socialise with (which have the closest fit with us culturally and psychologically)? As Norwich fans we don't wish to be with away fans on the whole (unless you attend a Rugby League match and you're all together and give each other banter which never or rarely gets personal). We feel comfortable amongst our own (and those with similar political views).

This may not even be about white people. What it is about is power (I think). It is challenging ("we can do this now"). For decades black people have had little voice.That much is clear. The same for women (golf clubs and so on). 

Perhaps the book "White Frailty" is a useful source. Paper thin skins. 

I don't like this kind of thing but there we are. Am I only of such a minority position who believes there is a (massive) context surely?

 

 

10 minutes ago, horsefly said:

It's not racism. People of ALL colours are welcome to see the play. Reserving a couple of performances for black only audiences, given the nature of the issues directly confronted, simply shows sensitivity to the trauma slavery still evokes. I shall endeavour to see the play myself if I get the chance, but I certainly wouldn't attempt to force my way in on the couple of nights reserved for a black only audience on some feigned principle. If a play that dealt explicitly with the issue of rape reserved some performances for women only audiences would you insist on forcing your way in claiming equality for men?

Thanks guys for a deeper look into this subject. After reading your posts and listening to a wonderful debate on radio I have more knowledge of the nuances that my initial, headline reading reaction allows. I am still not fully behind it but have a better understanding. Cheers. 

[Yellow Fever 3,793]

29 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Sadly, but predictably, some are coming out of the woodwork.

I actually am still opposed to this as a simple matter of principal. However those that do defend it have given their reasoning - basically on the grounds of an abundance of sensitivity to the issues. As such and given that anybody can see the play their 'defence' although I might disagree doesn't stem from any racism.

Really this all a bit of non-issue and a silly diversion as compared to outright Islamophobia of Tory party members as in that poll. 50%. So blind that they can't actually see it in themselves or define it. Three wise monkeys the lot! 

[Naturalcynic 631]

17 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Britain traded 2.3 million slaves. When the Slavery Abolition Act was passed, there were 46,000 slave owners in this country. Black people clearly WERE victims of slavery in this country in their tens of thousands. The majority of the current black population can trace ancestors who were enslaved by the British either here or in other parts of the empire. On what planet do you exist? 

And resorting to labelling me as "coming out of the woodwork" really is pathetic (see why I called you a bigot now?).

And I also see you have refused to answer the question asking whether you would object to a play about rape reserving a couple of nights for women only audiences. 

Carry on defending the indefensible.

[Naturalcynic 631]

11 minutes ago, Herman said:

 

 

Thanks guys for a deeper look into this subject. After reading your posts and listening to a wonderful debate on radio I have more knowledge of the nuances that my initial, headline reading reaction allows. I am still not fully behind it but have a better understanding. Cheers. 

Ah, so you’re putting your head above the parapet now that some others have.

[Naturalcynic 631]

7 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

I actually am still opposed to this as a simple matter of principal. However those that do defend it have given their reasoning - basically on the grounds of an abundance of sensitivity to the issues. As such and given that anybody can see the play their 'defence' although I might disagree doesn't stem from any racism.

Really this all a bit of non-issue and a silly diversion as compared to outright Islamophobia of Tory party members as in that poll. 50%. So blind that they can't actually see it in themselves or define it. Three wise monkeys the lot! 

Another one bravely deciding to now nail his/her hypocritical colours to the mast, having seen that some of his/her ideological bedfellows have done likewise.

[KeiranShikari 1,420]

Me at the Theatre Royal vaporising minorities with the white gaze.