The threat to our democracy

[Fen Canary 848]

Just now, dylanisabaddog said:

You're saying that for certain but you just don't know. It's perhaps obvious to you because of confirmation bias.

I have no doubt that Muslim extremists are the cause of some of the problem. But it's highly unlikely they're alone. There are a thoroughly unpleasant group of people who have been egged on by GB News, Braverman and Anderson. For example, our secret services were sufficiently concerned by their behaviour to launch a major exercise to prevent them causing harm last November. 

Anderson was stirring the pot again yesterday. Do you seriously believe that he doesn't know that he's urging on some absolute nut jobs? 

This is the pathetic response I’m talking about. Islamist terrorism predates any of these people you mentioned, yet somehow they’re the cause of it for responding or having an opinion on the matter? 

[Fen Canary 848]

4 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

And sadly it’s the same globally.  Wherever there are sizeable Muslim populations there are problems with violent Islamism, with the ME, Philippines, Thailand, Kashmir,  Myanmar (Rohingyas), China (Uighurs), any number of north and sub-Saharan African countries, and increasingly Western Europe all being cases in point.

I’m not sure you can blame the Uighers, Rohingya or those in Kashmir to be honest, they’ve been on the end of mistreatment rather than being responsible for any trouble 

[ricardo 7,395]

2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Is it really beyond our capabilities to make every use of a computer or phone traceable? 

Big Brother is watching you.

[dylanisabaddog 4,947]

10 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Big Brother is watching you.

He will get bored eventually

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

1 hour ago, ricardo said:

Big Brother is watching you.

No - but the moderator will be!

Of all the threads that have been zapped this one seems to be hell bent to get done quickest.

The subject matter seems to have let lose all those personal demons which some hold close to their chest, making such views seem acceptable. 30p Lee's comments as an example are totally unacceptable and yes he should be drummed out of that party forthwith. The stereotyping of any group by association or insinuation with a few nutters is not acceptable. Playing to the lowest dumbest in society.

We seem to have those that leap to assume its all militant Islam that is currently 'threatening' our MPs. Having historically seen some of stuff they receive I might suggest it comes from all quarters from very inadequate people. Some of the 'abuse' will as likely come from shallow people with no particular religious motivation but who think such abuse OK. Incapable of rational thought.

On an associated subject - I read yesterday that Just Stop Oil had decided it was OK to protest outside MPs homes. Its not. Shallow inadequate people too.

 

Edited February 24 by Yellow Fever

[Herman 9,793]

1 hour ago, dylanisabaddog said:

He will get bored eventually

I make my life as dull as possible just to annoy Big Brother. (Well that's my excuse anyways).

[king canary 7,623]

There is definitely a leftist blind spot when it comes to acknowledging that the more hardcore adherents of islam are not the most helpful to creating an integrated liberal democracy and that needs to be considered.

It isn't whataboutery though to note that violent threats to political figures have been on the rise for years but it's only positioned as an existential threat to our democracy when it's Muslims. It's also not whataboutery to place the current situation in the wider global context of political intolerance. I'd really hope nobody in this thread complaining about this threat to democracy are also supporters of Trump, someone who has shown his own willingness to throw democracy under the bus for his own aims.

We've constantly seen a willingness from people of all stripes to 'other' their opponents. No longer are those who disagree with you reasonable people who happen to hold different views points. If you're on the far left then those on the right are all facists. If your on the right then those who opposed you are liberal elite peadophiles. If your an extreme Islamist then it's the Jews. Etc etc. It's a dreadful situation but it's not going to be solved with the kind of rhetoric coming from Braverman and Anderson just as it wouldn't be solved by Corbyn and co calling everyone genocidal facists. Sometimes you need your politicians to be the adults in the room and bring down the tensions rather than stoking the flames but we have the political class our political situation deserves at this point.

[dylanisabaddog 4,947]

Good points @king canary

The main threat to our democracy (in my mind) is the fact that this sort of thing puts people off wanting to do the job. I hope it doesn't sound sexist if I say it may put off women more than men. 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

There is definitely a leftist blind spot when it comes to acknowledging that the more hardcore adherents of islam are not the most helpful to creating an integrated liberal democracy and that needs to be considered.

It isn't whataboutery though to note that violent threats to political figures have been on the rise for years but it's only positioned as an existential threat to our democracy when it's Muslims. It's also not whataboutery to place the current situation in the wider global context of political intolerance. I'd really hope nobody in this thread complaining about this threat to democracy are also supporters of Trump, someone who has shown his own willingness to throw democracy under the bus for his own aims.

We've constantly seen a willingness from people of all stripes to 'other' their opponents. No longer are those who disagree with you reasonable people who happen to hold different views points. If you're on the far left then those on the right are all facists. If your on the right then those who opposed you are liberal elite peadophiles. If your an extreme Islamist then it's the Jews. Etc etc. It's a dreadful situation but it's not going to be solved with the kind of rhetoric coming from Braverman and Anderson just as it wouldn't be solved by Corbyn and co calling everyone genocidal facists. Sometimes you need your politicians to be the adults in the room and bring down the tensions rather than stoking the flames but we have the political class our political situation deserves at this point.

A lot of very reasonable points in there. The only comment I'd make is that Islam is unique in that politics will pander to the threats of extremists, exactly as the speaker did, as it did over Charlie Hebdo, and as it did over the Birmingham school protests, even though I personally don't think he merits facing consequences for doing so given the prevailing climate leans that way.

Edited February 24 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Good points @king canary

The main threat to our democracy (in my mind) is the fact that this sort of thing puts people off wanting to do the job. I hope it doesn't sound sexist if I say it may put off women more than men. 

Completely agree, and I think it already has put most people with any talent off. We're left with bullsh1tters with hides like rhinoceruses, but equally if people don't start treating them with some modicum of respect then that will never change.

Edited February 24 by littleyellowbirdie

[Herman 9,793]

30p Lee has had the whip removed. 👍

[Naturalcynic 641]

5 minutes ago, Herman said:

30p Lee has had the whip removed. 👍

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/23/the-cowardice-of-our-elites-is-emboldening-islamism/

[canarydan23 4,060]

13 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/23/the-cowardice-of-our-elites-is-emboldening-islamism/

Weird, article has nothing to do with 30p Lee.

I assume you agree with his removal of the whip?

[Herman 9,793]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/23/the-cowardice-of-our-elites-is-emboldening-islamism/

Shabba!

 

Coldwar Steve.

[Naturalcynic 641]

2 hours ago, canarydan23 said:

Weird, article has nothing to do with 30p Lee.

I assume you agree with his removal of the whip?

https://unherd.com/2024/02/islamism-is-exploiting-britains-political-vacuum/

[canarydan23 4,060]

10 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

https://unherd.com/2024/02/islamism-is-exploiting-britains-political-vacuum/

It's a pretty straightforward question, why can't you answer it?

[Naturalcynic 641]

Another opinion piece that some of our more leftward-leaning apologists for Islamism would do well to read, but they probably won’t as it’s by Brendan O’Neill who they hate with a passion because they see him as a turncoat:

https://www.spiked-online.com/2024/02/25/the-shameful-silencing-of-radical-islams-critics/

[Herman 9,793]

I don't see him as a turncoat. He's a communist/marxist, arch-contrarian who writes bollox simply to stir up idiots.

[Naturalcynic 641]

9 minutes ago, Herman said:

I don't see him as a turncoat. He's a communist/marxist, arch-contrarian who writes bollox simply to stir up idiots.

Certainly stirred you up, and you haven’t even read the article! 

[Herman 9,793]

20 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Certainly stirred you up, and you haven’t even read the article! 

I apologise for being rude but I have nothing but ill thoughts of that man and his associates. I do not trust and do not think they have Britain's interests at heart.

[king canary 7,623]

21 hours ago, Herman said:

I apologise for being rude but I have nothing but ill thoughts of that man and his associates. I do not trust and do not think they have Britain's interests at heart.

I used to quite enjoy Spiked until it became a bit of a parody of itself. Initially it painted itself as being basically left wing but without the obsession with identity politics but now every single issue is reduced to 'woke liberal elites are awful!' with a sideline of economically illiterate libertarianism. 

Brendan O'Neil himself is so predictably contrarion that you can spot an article is his just by the title- it'll always be 'why the woke/elite/liberal/leftie folks are wrong about issue x, y or z.' He's occasionally on the mark but its very much the stopped clock type situation.

[hogesar 9,704]

Can sort of see the difficulty involved in governing the UK and trying to bring people together when this thread is a combination of left-sided people refusing to acknowledge a legitimate Islam-related problem whilst there's others on the right-side who conversely want to blame that group for the increase in the price of breakfast cereals. 

And when you consider this Norwich, Norfolk biased forum is pretty balanced comparatively speaking, you can see how bad those extremes get in certain locations in the country.

[canarydan23 4,060]

23 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Certainly stirred you up, and you haven’t even read the article! 

Do you agree with Lee Anderson having the whip removed?

[Herman 9,793]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

I used to quite enjoy Spiked until it became a bit of a parody of itself. Initially it painted itself as being basically left wing but without the obsession with identity politics but now every single issue is reduced to 'woke liberal elites are awful!' with a sideline of economically illiterate libertarianism. 

Brendan O'Neil himself is so predictably contrarion that you can spot an article is his just by the title- it'll always be 'why the woke/elite/liberal/leftie folks are wrong about issue x, y or z.' He's occasionally on the mark but its very much the stopped clock type situation.

Thanks. I am very sceptical of a well known left-wing journal and very left-wing journalists using, repeating or amplifying right wing talking points. Something seems off to me and I feel that it is all done to drive a wedge between the populace even further. I could be just paranoid, stuck in a historical past or simply wrong but I will still feel they are up to no good.

[Naturalcynic 641]

39 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Do you agree with Lee Anderson having the whip removed?

Anderson having the Conservative whip removed is no concern of mine.  That’s up to Sunak.  What Anderson said was direct and clumsy, but not racist or Islamophobic.  It was, however, probably factually wrong in that Khan is unlikely to be in bed with the Islamists.  Indeed, many of the causes Khan supports would be anathema to hardline Islamic teaching.  Anderson is unlikely to have the whip restored unless he withdraws his comments which I doubt he’ll do.  He may well defect to another party, and not for the first time.

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

Seems to me the casual Islamaphobia is so ingrained in the Tory party they they no longer see it as wrong. They think it is normal. Anderson is clearly just a representative of this demographic.

[Naturalcynic 641]

1 hour ago, Yellow Fever said:

Seems to me the casual Islamaphobia is so ingrained in the Tory party they they no longer see it as wrong. They think it is normal. Anderson is clearly just a representative of this demographic.

Calling out Islamism isn’t Islamophobia.  

Edited February 26 by Naturalcynic

[littleyellowbirdie 2,562]

On 24/02/2024 at 10:05, dylanisabaddog said:

You're saying that for certain but you just don't know. It's perhaps obvious to you because of confirmation bias.

I have no doubt that Muslim extremists are the cause of some of the problem. But it's highly unlikely they're alone. There are a thoroughly unpleasant group of people who have been egged on by GB News, Braverman and Anderson. For example, our secret services were sufficiently concerned by their behaviour to launch a major exercise to prevent them causing harm last November. 

Anderson was stirring the pot again yesterday. Do you seriously believe that he doesn't know that he's urging on some absolute nut jobs? 

Islamism is the single biggest constant terrorist threat in the UK. That's fact, not 'confirmation bias'. But there is persistent deflection from from that with 'but what about the far right' a smaller threat in spite of that particular group potentially drawing from the vast majority of the population rather than the minority of Muslims, underlining that Islam in the UK does have distressingly permissive attitudes to radical Islamic views among them that leads to the radicalisation of many more Muslims to Islamic fundamentalism; British born Muslims radicalised to kill innocent people in the UK and overseas in far greater numbers than is the case with the 'far right'

The deflection and whataboutism is a joke. There is an unacceptable will on the left to simply bury its collective head in the sands about a very real issue. And ironically, the main thing that feeds the far right is the unacceptably indulgent attitude in mainstream politics to the permissiveness towards radical attitudes within Muslim communities in the UK.

Edited February 26 by littleyellowbirdie

[Yellow Fever 3,804]

32 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Calling out Islamism isn’t Islamophobia.  

Seems like the current incumbents confuse and conflate the two doesn't it?

In truth they are only representing the dregs that are left from the base it seems. What a positions to get yourself into.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/26/tory-supporters-lash-out-at-snake-sunak-over-lee-anderson-suspension

[Aggy 757]

56 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Seems to me the casual Islamaphobia is so ingrained in the Tory party they they no longer see it as wrong. They think it is normal. Anderson is clearly just a representative of this demographic.

A different point perhaps to the main one in the thread, but I’m not sure that’s necessarily right When it comes to Anderson. He is an ex-coal miner, who previously represented Labour, in an ex coal mining area which in the 64 years between the constituency being formed in 1955 and 2019 had only had a non-Labour MP for two years after a by election. The same constituency was a fairly high voter for the BNP in 2010. He has only been in the Conservative party for a handful of years. Not sure it’s a Tory issue as such. 

Another separate point though, but with Anderson, my guess is he is expecting not to be re-elected and is now trying to become some sort of new Katie Hopkins to try and still be ‘relevant’ this time next year….