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horsefly

Norfolk and the General Election

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5 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

Yes - Clearly some pests / vermin need to be controlled or culled - in a humane and effective manner but not for 'fun'!

 

What's wrong with someone enjoying culling an animal? It makes no difference to the animal at all whether its  killer is having fun or wringing their hands over it in a crisis is conscience.

This is exactly what I'm saying about tolerance. You might not like it, but if it doesn't affect you, why do you feel the need to interfere? Stopping half a dozen foxes being chased and killed every weekend won't stop millions of animals being killed gruesomely by other animals on a daily basis. It's an absurd, pointless fight for the sake of a pretty weak moral case clearly more motivated by a desire to control the actions of others perceived as 'sinful' than any real interest in animal welfare.

 

Edited by littleyellowbirdie

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19 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Personally, I've never hunted and I've never fished. I once went out with a friend with an air rifle shooting at birds when I was about 14 and purposely aimed to miss because I didn't like the idea of killing a bird.

 

Or to put it another way, they don't want people to go after them the same way they go after fox hunters.

Honestly, I'm with you in not understanding it. I don't like needless cruelty.

You're calling me ignorant, but ultimately you have no defense at all for being utterly self-righteous about condemning people who enjoy killing foxes for sport because they happen to enjoy it, even though it actually is fulfilling a pest control function at the same time, while happily dismissing gratuitous cruelty to fish for reasons only known to yourself when sport fishing throwing the fish back serves no purpose whatsoever other than a cruel form of entertainment. So why would you be so enthused about going after one and not the other?

I think your comment about 'lumping together two different sets of people' betrays what this is all about. Your motivation against fox hunting is motivated by spite towards 'toffs' having fun rather than any real cares about animal welfare. It'd be 'stupid' to go after sport fishing because they'd alienate a fair number of their voters starting that sort of culture war. It's left-wing populism that Labour is trotting out as a rabble rouser ahead of a general election, to distract from not having much to say about the real issues that people care about that haven't been addressed under the Conservatives, but in reality probably won't be addressed under Labour given their reticence about talking about them at this stage.

 

Once again you are jumping to conclusions. I have no objection to toffs enjoying themselves. I object to fox hunting because it is barbaric. 

If you think foxes are vermin then the effective way to deal with them is to lamp them. The landowners in my vicinity rarely bother because the fox is good at keeping the rabbit population under control. 

I'm highly amused that you claim not to like needless cruelty but also have no problem with fox hunting and earlier in this conversation rejoiced in the fact that your cat killed a bird. Then you go on to say you don't like killing them. You're very confused aren't you?

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This is actually why I've a lot of respect for vegans even though I like the taste of meat far too much to change over to their lifestyle - they're ultimately pretty consistent. 

Although some sorts are spamming the FB pages of anything on the Faroe Islands re. the grindadrap. I admit, watching the bay turn red with blood isn't exactly endearing but then again, how is most of the meat on my supermarket shelf produced? Even when you talk about free-range eggs/grass-fed cattle, I'm seriously hard-pushed to think of anything more free-range than a bloody whale!

The stronger argument against whale hunting, at least for me personally, is the high level of heavy metals such as cadmium in the meat.

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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/liz-truss-among-over-25-32535627?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar

Voters in South West Norfolk please note that your MP has spoken in parliament precisely ZERO times in 2024. 

Voters in South Norfolk please note that your MP has spoken in parliament precisely ZERO times in 2024

Voters in Great Yarmouth please note that your MP has spoken in parliament precisely ZERO times in 2024

Voters in Norwich North please note that your MP has spoken in parliament 4 times in 2024

Voters in Norwich South  please note that your MP has spoken in parliament 8 times in 2024

Voters in North West Norfolk please note that your MP has spoken in parliament 23 times in 2024

Voters in Mid Norfolk please note that your MP has spoken in parliament 43  times in 2024

Voters in Broadland please note that your MP has spoken in parliament 48 times in 2024

 

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On 05/04/2024 at 09:12, TheGunnShow said:

This is actually why I've a lot of respect for vegans even though I like the taste of meat far too much to change over to their lifestyle - they're ultimately pretty consistent. 

Although some sorts are spamming the FB pages of anything on the Faroe Islands re. the grindadrap. I admit, watching the bay turn red with blood isn't exactly endearing but then again, how is most of the meat on my supermarket shelf produced? Even when you talk about free-range eggs/grass-fed cattle, I'm seriously hard-pushed to think of anything more free-range than a bloody whale!

The stronger argument against whale hunting, at least for me personally, is the high level of heavy metals such as cadmium in the meat.

The problem I have with vegans using the argument about the killing of animals as a reason for veganism, ignores the millions of animals that are killed on a daily basis during the process of growing and harvesting vegan food. Obviously, animals are not directly killed, but the farming techniques to grow cost food requires tons of pesticides spread on fields to kill pests that would otherwise devastate crops. Then crops have to be treated with weed-killers which also kills animals living in the soils, leaching into rivers and waterways and so poisoning aquatic creatures. And then the harvesting process tends to shred a million more animals or kill off millions that pass through chlorine baths and the such-like. 

The animals that vegan farming kills are not the lovable sheep and big-eyed cattle but lots wriggly, ugly-looking stuff, but these are the animals that are way more important for the natural ecosystem than a pig. If you kill all the worms in a field then material in the soil doesn't get processed and the soil loses its nutrition and nothing can grow unless you replenish the ground with artificial fertilisers. If you kill all the bees then nothing pollinates and you have no fruit, for example. So vegan farming is way more harmful to the natural ecosystem than animal farming.

Now the vegan will argue that the answer is organic farming. But the problem here is that organic farming is all low-scale and high cost farming. You cannot feed a nation using just organic practices as the end product is three times the price of non-organic stuff. Maybe fine if you are a middle-class dual-income family, not fine if you are  working-class low income person. Moreover, without animal husbandry there is no organic fertiliser for organic vegan farming, so you would be reliant on chemical fertilisers, killing more of those slithery, wriggley animals

You could probably achieve results on a small scale but that would require everybody digging up their back garden and growing their own fruit and veg.

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8 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

The problem I have with vegans using the argument about the killing of animals as a reason for veganism, ignores the millions of animals that are killed on a daily basis during the process of growing and harvesting vegan food. Obviously, animals are not directly killed, but the farming techniques to grow cost food requires tons of pesticides spread on fields to kill pests that would otherwise devastate crops. Then crops have to be treated with weed-killers which also kills animals living in the soils, leaching into rivers and waterways and so poisoning aquatic creatures. And then the harvesting process tends to shred a million more animals or kill off millions that pass through chlorine baths and the such-like. 

The animals that vegan farming kills are not the lovable sheep and big-eyed cattle but lots wriggly, ugly-looking stuff, but these are the animals that are way more important for the natural ecosystem than a pig. If you kill all the worms in a field then material in the soil doesn't get processed and the soil loses its nutrition and nothing can grow unless you replenish the ground with artificial fertilisers. If you kill all the bees then nothing pollinates and you have no fruit, for example. So vegan farming is way more harmful to the natural ecosystem than animal farming.

Now the vegan will argue that the answer is organic farming. But the problem here is that organic farming is all low-scale and high cost farming. You cannot feed a nation using just organic practices as the end product is three times the price of non-organic stuff. Maybe fine if you are a middle-class dual-income family, not fine if you are  working-class low income person. Moreover, without animal husbandry there is no organic fertiliser for organic vegan farming, so you would be reliant on chemical fertilisers, killing more of those slithery, wriggley animals

You could probably achieve results on a small scale but that would require everybody digging up their back garden and growing their own fruit and veg.

True that vegan farming kills animals too, but such techniques still kill far fewer animals than animal farming, that's been debunked a fair few times.

DEBUNKED: Do vegans kill more animals through crop deaths? — Surge | Creative Non-Profit for Animal Rights (surgeactivism.org)

I do agree that some of the animals killed are particularly useful and bees are probably the main case in point, but then again, much of the world's production of corn and soy is as animal feed too.

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13 hours ago, Rock The Boat said:

The problem I have with vegans using the argument about the killing of animals as a reason for veganism, ignores the millions of animals that are killed on a daily basis during the process of growing and harvesting vegan food. Obviously, animals are not directly killed, but the farming techniques to grow cost food requires tons of pesticides spread on fields to kill pests that would otherwise devastate crops. Then crops have to be treated with weed-killers which also kills animals living in the soils, leaching into rivers and waterways and so poisoning aquatic creatures. And then the harvesting process tends to shred a million more animals or kill off millions that pass through chlorine baths and the such-like. 

The animals that vegan farming kills are not the lovable sheep and big-eyed cattle but lots wriggly, ugly-looking stuff, but these are the animals that are way more important for the natural ecosystem than a pig. If you kill all the worms in a field then material in the soil doesn't get processed and the soil loses its nutrition and nothing can grow unless you replenish the ground with artificial fertilisers. If you kill all the bees then nothing pollinates and you have no fruit, for example. So vegan farming is way more harmful to the natural ecosystem than animal farming.

Now the vegan will argue that the answer is organic farming. But the problem here is that organic farming is all low-scale and high cost farming. You cannot feed a nation using just organic practices as the end product is three times the price of non-organic stuff. Maybe fine if you are a middle-class dual-income family, not fine if you are  working-class low income person. Moreover, without animal husbandry there is no organic fertiliser for organic vegan farming, so you would be reliant on chemical fertilisers, killing more of those slithery, wriggley animals

You could probably achieve results on a small scale but that would require everybody digging up their back garden and growing their own fruit and veg.

You clearly have no knowledge of organic farming at all. Also it seems you have you never heard of a compost heap.

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31 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You clearly have no knowledge of organic farming at all. Also it seems you have you never heard of a compost heap.

He obviously does. Where do you think he dug that up from?! 😂

I think there is one sentence in all of that that has a modicum of truth to it. 

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On 09/04/2024 at 00:03, Rock The Boat said:

The problem I have with vegans using the argument about the killing of animals as a reason for veganism, ignores the millions of animals that are killed on a daily basis during the process of growing and harvesting vegan food. Obviously, animals are not directly killed, but the farming techniques to grow cost food requires tons of pesticides spread on fields to kill pests that would otherwise devastate crops. Then crops have to be treated with weed-killers which also kills animals living in the soils, leaching into rivers and waterways and so poisoning aquatic creatures. And then the harvesting process tends to shred a million more animals or kill off millions that pass through chlorine baths and the such-like. 

The animals that vegan farming kills are not the lovable sheep and big-eyed cattle but lots wriggly, ugly-looking stuff, but these are the animals that are way more important for the natural ecosystem than a pig. If you kill all the worms in a field then material in the soil doesn't get processed and the soil loses its nutrition and nothing can grow unless you replenish the ground with artificial fertilisers. If you kill all the bees then nothing pollinates and you have no fruit, for example. So vegan farming is way more harmful to the natural ecosystem than animal farming.

Now the vegan will argue that the answer is organic farming. But the problem here is that organic farming is all low-scale and high cost farming. You cannot feed a nation using just organic practices as the end product is three times the price of non-organic stuff. Maybe fine if you are a middle-class dual-income family, not fine if you are  working-class low income person. Moreover, without animal husbandry there is no organic fertiliser for organic vegan farming, so you would be reliant on chemical fertilisers, killing more of those slithery, wriggley animals

You could probably achieve results on a small scale but that would require everybody digging up their back garden and growing their own fruit and veg.

Also, think of the cows and all the milk they produce. If they're not milked then they potentially die. Then all the species that exist to eat that would just die out otherwise.

Meat is murder; veganism is genocide.

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