Why Attanasio wants to buy Norwich (and Delia must sell)

[norfolkngood 1,087]

13 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Attanasio is liquid and Delia isn’t.

Delia has (only) an equity gain to throw in the pot and Attanasio can put petrol in the Ferrari to keep it somewhere in the race. 

The sporting level has and is dropping rapidly. ‘Relying on moments rather than process’ as others have it. 

Attanasio ‘liquifies’ Delia’s equity gain, puts it back into the club and claims the reflected glory, success may occur, if it doesn’t he will be sure the can offload to others on the SSG or similar. 
 

In the meantime he refinances via others and gets a brokerage cut and interest if he’s genuinely underwriting any of it. . 

It may work out. We may win against the odds. The asset may be held for the medium term provided there is enough positive plusvalenza trading, Murdoch money or further ‘Australian’ investment. 

Delia is disillusioned because it wasn’t meant to be this way

Parma 

i have always said i do not think MA is long term ,

i think he will get the club as he is a smart businessman ,

then he will offload it for a profit or he is buying on behalf of someone ,

In the AGM meeting you could see who the smart guy was sitting there being super nice and positive as Delia and MWJ were being defensive ,

he has played a blinder , like you say he will give money and smile as he is doing it as the more he gives the stronger he becomes 

[shefcanary 2,444]

1 hour ago, norfolkngood said:

i have always said i do not think MA is long term ,

i think he will get the club as he is a smart businessman ,

then he will offload it for a profit or he is buying on behalf of someone ,

In the AGM meeting you could see who the smart guy was sitting there being super nice and positive as Delia and MWJ were being defensive ,

he has played a blinder , like you say he will give money and smile as he is doing it as the more he gives the stronger he becomes 

First, I just don't see his involvement being short term. To make the return required to justify a decent profit on his investment will require much further investment over a number of years. Yesterday's visit to Anfield and seeing the fruits of FSG's investment in that club (Attanasio seems to be building his model based of FSG, indeed he has joined up with them on his PGA investment) confirms to me just how much and how long it will take him to get the returns he wants. 

Secondly, I agree he has played a blinder, he has been able to acquire his stake so far at 2002 prices! The next stage of the process is inevitable, albeit subject to Smith & Jones figuring out how they can stay to their previous words of not making an equity gain of the period of their controlling ownership. 

[norfolkngood 1,087]

7 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

First, I just don't see his involvement being short term. To make the return required to justify a decent profit on his investment will require much further investment over a number of years. Yesterday's visit to Anfield and seeing the fruits of FSG's investment in that club (Attanasio seems to be building his model based of FSG, indeed he has joined up with them on his PGA investment) confirms to me just how much and how long it will take him to get the returns he wants. 

Secondly, I agree he has played a blinder, he has been able to acquire his stake so far at 2002 prices! The next stage of the process is inevitable, albeit subject to Smith & Jones figuring out how they can stay to their previous words of not making an equity gain of the period of their controlling ownership. 

first point depends if MA is the one who wants the club if so then long term gain is available but he might flip it quickly if he got it for right price making a profit either way ,

Second point i think Delia and MWJ have hit the wall in terms of one person can plough money in they cannot ,

it seems to me all they can do now is MA you put more money in and have some more of our shares ,

He has full control which way he plays it starve them of money ( very unlikely ) or just keep giving the club money which i think he will until they run out of shares to give 

[shefcanary 2,444]

14 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

first point depends if MA is the one who wants the club if so then long term gain is available but he might flip it quickly if he got it for right price making a profit either way ,

Second point i think Delia and MWJ have hit the wall in terms of one person can plough money in they cannot ,

it seems to me all they can do now is MA you put more money in and have some more of our shares ,

He has full control which way he plays it starve them of money ( very unlikely ) or just keep giving the club money which i think he will until they run out of shares to give 

Yeah, definitely he is the one who wants the club, he responded directly to one email he received. Someone looking for a quick flip would need more persuading than that!

As I said there is only way forward now because he has the club by the financial "balls" now, he can do what he wants but that remains dependent on Smith & Jones' own consciences regarding their previous public statements over not being seen to gain from their ownership. I still don't see how they can do it, but hey .... 

[BigFish 1,988]

5 minutes ago, shefcanary said:

he can do what he wants but that remains dependent on Smith & Jones' own consciences regarding their previous public statements over not being seen to gain from their ownership. I still don't see how they can do it, but hey .... 

Everything ultimately comes down to, and can be explained, by this

[norfolkngood 1,087]

1 minute ago, shefcanary said:

Yeah, definitely he is the one who wants the club, he responded directly to one email he received. Someone looking for a quick flip would need more persuading than that!

As I said there is only way forward now because he has the club by the financial "balls" now, he can do what he wants but that remains dependent on Smith & Jones' own consciences regarding their previous public statements over not being seen to gain from their ownership. I still don't see how they can do it, but hey .... 

i think like i said before say for Example D & MWJ shares are worth 40 million 

MA could write a cheque out and they could run of to stowmarket and retire ( i would do that ! )

or MA can inject another 40 million into club and then at the end Delia and MWJ give them his shares so they will not profit from their shares ,

he still has paid 40 million for their shares but they do not profit only the club benefits ,

i think that is why it is over 3 years for FFP ? thats a guess but otherwise i am sure MA would inject the money into club now ,

i think until we have one owner with a direction , spending his money we will see the club run differently Board level wise ,with more specialists in different fields coming onboard 

 

 

[BigFish 1,988]

25 minutes ago, norfolkngood said:

i think like i said before say for Example D & MWJ shares are worth 40 million 

MA could write a cheque out and they could run of to stowmarket and retire ( i would do that ! )

or MA can inject another 40 million into club and then at the end Delia and MWJ give them his shares so they will not profit from their shares ,

he still has paid 40 million for their shares but they do not profit only the club benefits ,

i think that is why it is over 3 years for FFP ? thats a guess but otherwise i am sure MA would inject the money into club now ,

i think until we have one owner with a direction , spending his money we will see the club run differently Board level wise ,with more specialists in different fields coming onboard

The equity gain is there, whether S&J take it or not. This only gifts it to MA. And don't forget the 20% of minorities or @Essex Canary will be very upset 🙂

 

[essex canary 504]

7 hours ago, BigFish said:

The equity gain is there, whether S&J take it or not. This only gifts it to MA. And don't forget the 20% of minorities or @Essex Canary will be very upset 🙂

 

Very True. Why should ordinary supporters subsidise MA?

S&J found out a quarter of a century ago that ordinary supporters couldn't be expected to double their investment on demand yet still they have maintained this apparent enthusiasm for minority shareholding. Why exactly unless they have an idea as to how to make it work?

[PurpleCanary 5,580]

On 28/01/2024 at 21:34, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Attanasio is liquid and Delia isn’t.

Delia has (only) an equity gain to throw in the pot and Attanasio can put petrol in the Ferrari to keep it somewhere in the race. 

The sporting level has and is dropping rapidly. ‘Relying on moments rather than process’ as others have it. 

Attanasio ‘liquifies’ Delia’s equity gain, puts it back into the club and claims the reflected glory, success may occur, if it doesn’t he will be sure he can offload to others on the SSG or similar. 
 

In the meantime he refinances via others and gets a brokerage cut and interest if he’s genuinely underwriting any of it. The C cat shares look like the table stakes buy in. 

It may work out. We may win against the odds. The asset may be held for the medium term provided there is enough positive plusvalenza trading, Murdoch money or further ‘Australian’ investment. 

Delia is disillusioned because it wasn’t meant to be this way

Parma 

That makes her sound like an idealistic and utopian old Bolshevik appalled by the real-world brutality of Stalinism.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,425]

I sincerely hope Delia and Michael do make money out of selling their shares/relinquishing control, because someone sure as hell will further down the line.

[king canary 7,654]

Personally I woudn't begrudge them making an equity gain and I think they could easily turn around and justify it by pointing out what others have on here about doing it to essentially 'do right' by other shareholders who want to cash out.

Some people might be pissed but I'd imagine most would understand- or am I being naive? 

[essex canary 504]

5 minutes ago, king canary said:

Personally I woudn't begrudge them making an equity gain and I think they could easily turn around and justify it by pointing out what others have on here about doing it to essentially 'do right' by other shareholders who want to cash out.

Some people might be pissed but I'd imagine most would understand- or am I being naive? 

All depends upon whether Bolsheviks approve of paying Capital Gains Tax.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,577]

1 hour ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

I sincerely hope Delia and Michael do make money out of selling their shares/relinquishing control, because someone sure as hell will further down the line.

If they don't make a profit, then it's because the club has lost value, which objectively is a bad thing.

Based on how MA described his operation at the Brewers regarding authorising buying players, Attannassio intends to have full executive authority at the end of the process.

 

[Robert N. LiM 4,464]

16 minutes ago, king canary said:

Personally I woudn't begrudge them making an equity gain and I think they could easily turn around and justify it by pointing out what others have on here about doing it to essentially 'do right' by other shareholders who want to cash out.

Some people might be pissed but I'd imagine most would understand- or am I being naive? 

Is there a means by which they could take the gain but then use it to benefit the club - some kind of gift that would, say, be a contribution to a new stand?

I have no idea how this works, and I bet it's been discussed somewhere on the infinite "Mark Attanasio" thread - but if it's possible it would be an elegant way out of the weird situation they find themselves: if they take the gain they'll look greedy to some fans; if they don't they're just leaving it in the value of the club for Attanasio to realise down the line...

[Mello Yello 2,302]

Give their gains to Neppers Tom....He can then buy a coffee shop with a combined successful Photographic business within it....that is really a covert underground HQ for snivel serpents and spies....Like a Norfolk equivalent of Kingsman....

The guy is a natural entrepreneur....and fires from the hip....and is no doubt trained in the deadly martial art of over exaggerated and excessive clapping....

I've seen it on match-days wiv me own eyes guvnah.....honest! 

Edited January 30 by Mello Yello

[shefcanary 2,444]

1 hour ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Is there a means by which they could take the gain but then use it to benefit the club - some kind of gift that would, say, be a contribution to a new stand?

I have no idea how this works, and I bet it's been discussed somewhere on the infinite "Mark Attanasio" thread - but if it's possible it would be an elegant way out of the weird situation they find themselves: if they take the gain they'll look greedy to some fans; if they don't they're just leaving it in the value of the club for Attanasio to realise down the line...

It's very complicated financially. There will be tax issues even if they "gift" their equity gain, be it CGT or IHT (as both as are in their 80's they will be mindful not to leave a hit for their relatives to tidy up, albeit one of them may yet survive more than 7 years).

There has been discussion of finding a way of the current loan from Attanasio being converted into Smith & Jones equity, thereby benefitting the club by the value of the loan. However that is something I've not personally experienced in my employment so not sure who cops the taxable gain, which cannot be magic'ed away! 

As well as being seen to have not profited through an equity gain, they also want to ensure the club remains part of the community and that Attanasio cannot use the club as a personal plaything. Attanasio will want control of every day business, but any change in ownership in the future Smith & Jones still want a say (even after they have passed on). Some kind of remaining golden share held in trust could be the way forward, perhaps the CSF is the perfect vehicle? 

But all this will require better brains than me to unpick.

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,228]

6 hours ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Is there a means by which they could take the gain but then use it to benefit the club - some kind of gift that would, say, be a contribution to a new stand?

I have no idea how this works, and I bet it's been discussed somewhere on the infinite "Mark Attanasio" thread - but if it's possible it would be an elegant way out of the weird situation they find themselves: if they take the gain they'll look greedy to some fans; if they don't they're just leaving it in the value of the club for Attanasio to realise down the line...

Because they are illiquid they could also create a deal with Attanasio that he invests the equivalent of the currently-unrealised equity gain. 

This really is a free hit for Attanasio and a great gift by Delia and Michael. Particularly as it would look to the outside world as if Attanasio was putting the money in (which he technically would be…but…)

Obliging buyers with what they must do next is fraught with legal ‘what if’ complications and likely not close to watertight however. The triggers would have to be specific and Attanasio will certainly have caveat clauses in not-even-really-force-majeure scenarios. Awkward. Irresolvable possibly. Then ‘…..listen…time passes……’ as Dylan rightly says.

Attanasio would then make them life presidents,  rename the City Stand in their honor and festoon them with praise…though would also naturally look like the second coming of Abramovich in a Norwich context….

The Cat C shares look a genuine cash injection, the rest a re-financing (though with all lever roads leading to Attanasio)…

…so I would suggest the club must ‘fail further’ in a sporting sense and require ongoing - otherwise unavailable - liquidity for Delia and Michael to effectively cede-dilute-sell their shareholding over time (and according to ‘club need’)..

This drip-drip-drip process looks like the flow of the river currently and is not as glorious an ending as it should be for Delia and Michael.

They haven’t been able to race the Ferrari. They haven’t really been able to put any petrol in it without Murdoch’s help (who they trotsdem romantically lament). Now it is rusting, needs expensive servicing and they can’t even keep it statically on the drive and sit in it happily anymore. 

Parma 

Edited January 30 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Robert N. LiM 4,464]

Thanks both. I understood @shefcanary's response and nearly 50% of @Parma Ham's gone mouldy's, which I'm calling a result.  

Very interesting stuff. I take my leave, none the wiser but considerably better informed.

Edited January 30 by Robert N. LiM
Typo

[Foxy2600 305]

Unusual random Yahoo on-line survey today...and below the Man City vs Burnley preview. Strange, I see no connection whatsoever?