Riots in Sweden

[Naturalcynic 674]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This is an interesting thing isn't it? Those particular protests were against the teaching of transgender ideas and, to be honest, I suspect there's a lot of people quietly pleased that they had the gumption to protest and push back on that subject - I'd cheerfully admit I'm completely on their side on that issue - but equally I think there's also a bit of resentment that, had anyone else been protesting over the transgender argument regarding being taught in schools like that, they'd have Antifa turning up to pick a fight.

Edit: Completely on their side is too strong: I get, respect and empathise that there's a lot of serious struggles people have on the transgender subject, but I'm still completely against young prepubescent children being confused with these ideas, and in that specific area, their willingness to protest is to be applauded.

That was a different protest.  It was in Birmingham whereas the teacher having to move house and go into hiding was in Batley.  I agree, however, that with the Birmingham example, had it been any other group (e.g. vaguely concerned white parents, Conservative voters, Christians etc) doing the protesting it’s a cast iron guarantee that the left would have been out in force denouncing them as bigots and fascists.

[Herman 9,835]

2 hours ago, king canary said:

You might not need to but fundementally, in a free, secular country you should be able to without it provoking riots.

In an ideal world you're right. But even in secular countries you're always going to get different groups getting overly angry about perceived slights.

And this idiot burning a Koran knows full well what he's doing and provoking.

[Naturalcynic 674]

18 minutes ago, Herman said:

In an ideal world you're right. But even in secular countries you're always going to get different groups getting overly angry about perceived slights.

And this idiot burning a Koran knows full well what he's doing and provoking.

Lots of individuals might say, write and do things with the intention of provoking a reaction, including some who post comments on here, but civilised people don’t respond by rioting.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,597]

56 minutes ago, Herman said:

In an ideal world you're right. But even in secular countries you're always going to get different groups getting overly angry about perceived slights.

And this idiot burning a Koran knows full well what he's doing and provoking.

On what grounds do you think he's an idiot? He's a refugee from a predominately Muslim country. Aren't you remotely curious as to whether he has any grounds for his antipathy to Islam that might be related to why he became a refugee?

Edited September 5, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

That’s alarmingly close to excusing Islamism.

Why would I stop Islamic belief when we have Bishops in our Upper House. I don't believe in any of it.

We have laws in this country that have to be followed. If they want Sharia Law over the laws of the nation then move to a country that acknowledges them. I wouldn't mess about. There isn't a grey area. Obey the law or if you are outside it, you get punished.

When Lee Rigby was nearly decapitated in Woolwich, I would have quite happily executed the two killers myself if I had met them in the street. Lee didn't make our foreign policy. He didn't renege on agreements. He didn't write the Balfour agreement.

What about Jewish terrorists in Palestine in the late 1940s? They killed our squaddies. Yet we support anti Semitism (I hope) and throw out MPs who don't. What about the Vatican protecting the Nazis in WWII? Do we still hunt Catholics as Henry did?

As a window is reglazed another stone gets thrown. Its a maelstrom of hate throughout the world. And much of that hate has naff all to do with religion. And Isalm and Judaism are ways of life not merely religions.

My son went on tours of Iraq and Afghanistan and he said the people he met did not represent the terrorists we know and despise. They, like us, just wanted to get on with their lives. Farmers, merchants, drivers etc.

Don't let the hate get to you. We are better than that. Creating division even further is not the way. Where do you go after the hate?

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Naturalcynic said:

That was a different protest.  It was in Birmingham whereas the teacher having to move house and go into hiding was in Batley.  I agree, however, that with the Birmingham example, had it been any other group (e.g. vaguely concerned white parents, Conservative voters, Christians etc) doing the protesting it’s a cast iron guarantee that the left would have been out in force denouncing them as bigots and fascists.

Don't just stop at reading the headlines 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

I do. Attempts to engage the wider Islamic community over how radicalisation of Muslims continually occurs in the UK is shut down. It's not just Yaxley-Lennon either. When Sarah Champion wrote an article about the Rotherham grooming gangs, a Labour front-bencher, she was forced to resign from the Labour front bench. Eric Pickles wrote a very tactful letter following the Manchester bombings callng for more to be done within the Islamic community that got lambasted as an attack that it wasn't doing enough.

I thought the line about Islamic fascism summed it up; Islamic extremism may as well be a form of fascism, and one that you and those like you are guilty of abetting through your refusal to accept that the wider Islamic community must play an active and enthusiastic part in stamping it  out and should account for itself where it fails.

There does need to be balance. It's to be accepted that Muslims are a minority in the UK and as such do merit protection from persecution like any other minority, but that doesn't put them above reproach for the failures of the wider Islamic community regarding Islamic extremism, nor should they be exempt from turning the other cheek when their icons are lampooned as everybody else must in a civilised society. It's the responsibility of all Muslims to deal with that because it's a problem within Islam in the UK that no non-Muslim can address.

And we also equally get comments and actions from the right who still cling to Powell's rivers of blood speech. Neither side, if you want to call it sides, can step outside of the law. If the authorities use the law then where is the problem? Hate speech is equally as bad as rubbish Foreign Policy.

I know you think the UN is a eunuch but if we aren't going to get the cahunas to stand up for consensus policies throughout the world we are jiggered. Where you live, is hardly displaying any balls at the moment. Egalite, Fraternite, Liberte means nothing if your best effort is to attack the clothing some Muslim believers wear. If you cannot obey the laws and break them because of your beliefs then you get the full force of the law punishing you. Anybody, Muslims, Jews are not immune from the laws of the nation they live in.

Le Pen is even trying to legitamise the FN. I would have more respect if she stuck with her beliefs even though I find them distasteful. You would know better than me that the far right wing in France is far more influential than anything in the UK. We probably don't have the same problems. Not too many will acknowledge the amount of migrants that France has. It doesn't suit the argument.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,597]

2 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

And we also equally get comments and actions from the right who still cling to Powell's rivers of blood speech. Neither side, if you want to call it sides, can step outside of the law. If the authorities use the law then where is the problem? Hate speech is equally as bad as rubbish Foreign Policy.

I know you think the UN is a eunuch but if we aren't going to get the cahunas to stand up for consensus policies throughout the world we are jiggered. Where you live, is hardly displaying any balls at the moment. Egalite, Fraternite, Liberte means nothing if your best effort is to attack the clothing some Muslim believers wear. If you cannot obey the laws and break them because of your beliefs then you get the full force of the law punishing you. Anybody, Muslims, Jews are not immune from the laws of the nation they live in.

Le Pen is even trying to legitamise the FN. I would have more respect if she stuck with her beliefs even though I find them distasteful. You would know better than me that the far right wing in France is far more influential than anything in the UK. We probably don't have the same problems. Not too many will acknowledge the amount of migrants that France has. It doesn't suit the argument.

France's problems are a whole different kettle of fish. France has nothing in the way of anti-racism laws, and aggressively keeps all religion out of the state. It doesn't really work, either. In many respects, our gentler approach is better in my view, but toleration regarding Islam has gone further than is reasonable given that Islam is responsible for all of the major terrorist threats in the UK.

The far right (not right, as you said) is our problem and people vocally and energetically denigrate it throughout society to the point where actually a lot more is characterised as 'far right' than is merited, to the extent that the term has become somewhat hollow coming from some, but everyone throughout society rails against it. It has little traction. The total deaths from far right extremism in the UK are 1: Jo Cox.

On the other hand, Islamic extremism has had the 7/7 bombings, the Manchester bombings, Lee Rigby, the London Bridge attacks and countless other attacks that have resulted in many deaths.

The Manchester bombers were Manchester born and bred; they were radicalised in the UK in the wider Islamic community. Shamima Begum was radicalised in the wider community and went off to cheerlead beheadings in Syria and God knows what else. These are failures of the wider Islamic community for which it should be expected that it holds up its hands, takes a look at itself as a group that is part of British society, and deals with it. Failing to do so is not tolerable in my view.

None of those comments are driven by 'hate' of anyone, incidentally; I say this completely dispassionately. Like I said, Islamic extremism is a problem within Islam and a problem British Muslims should be obliged to confront; they should be telling the rest of us how they're going about it .

Edited September 5, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

9 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

France's problems are a whole different kettle of fish. France has nothing in the way of anti-racism laws, and aggressively keeps all religion out of the state. It doesn't really work, either. In many respects, our gentler approach is better in my view, but toleration regarding Islam has gone further than is reasonable given that Islam is responsible for all of the major terrorist threats in the UK.

I'd completely disagree with your conclusion there - I don't see anything aggressive about the French separation of state and religion,  it is just very simple, sensible, clear cut and well established in their constitution and laws.

IMO it is infinitely preferable to the bizarre setup we have in this country of an established church (to which only a small minority of citizens belong) headed by a hereditary monarch who also happens our head of state and which, along with other religions, gets involved in our public life in entirely unjustifiable and undesirable ways - the education system being a prime example.

 

[Naturalcynic 674]

2 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'd completely disagree with your conclusion there - I don't see anything aggressive about the French separation of state and religion,  it is just very simple, sensible, clear cut and well established in their constitution and laws.

IMO it is infinitely preferable to the bizarre setup we have in this country of an established church (to which only a small minority of citizens belong) headed by a hereditary monarch who also happens our head of state and which, along with other religions, gets involved in our public life in entirely unjustifiable and undesirable ways - the education system being a prime example.

 

 

Fully agree that children shouldn’t be indoctrinated with specific religions in schools, but should be taught comparative religion, including their respective histories and inherent issues, as part of the general humanities curriculum.  Which, I suspect, is along the lines of what the Batley teacher was attempting to do.

[Herman 9,835]

Isn't the biggest threat in the UK at the moment radicalised white, far right youths and adults, exploited by people like Robinson and Farage? 

[king canary 7,679]

25 minutes ago, Herman said:

Isn't the biggest threat in the UK at the moment radicalised white, far right youths and adults, exploited by people like Robinson and Farage? 

I don't believe so?

From 2002 but...

Since March 2017, counter-terrorism police and the intelligence services have stopped 32 plots they assess as aiming to cause mass casualties on British soil. Of these they assess 18 were Islamist related, and 12 were triggered by extreme rightwing terrorist ideology. The other two were linked to category known as left, anarchist or single-issue terrorism (LASIT).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/16/terrorism-in-the-uk-the-rising-threat-of-far-right-extremists

 

[king canary 7,679]

15 hours ago, Herman said:

In an ideal world you're right. But even in secular countries you're always going to get different groups getting overly angry about perceived slights.

And this idiot burning a Koran knows full well what he's doing and provoking.

People can get angry. But if you lack the self control to not go on full blown riots because someone hurt your feelings about a magic book that is on you.

I have no doubt that you'd not be offering the same defence of this sort of behaviour if people on the right rioted because of any perceived provocation or slight. It is an issue that some seem to infantilise Muslims and act like they need protection from someone offending them, rather than putting the emphasis on them to adapt to the society they are in and understand your offence isn't an excuse for violence.

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

36 minutes ago, king canary said:

People can get angry. But if you lack the self control to not go on full blown riots because someone hurt your feelings about a magic book that is on you.

I have no doubt that you'd not be offering the same defence of this sort of behaviour if people on the right rioted because of any perceived provocation or slight. It is an issue that some seem to infantilise Muslims and act like they need protection from someone offending them, rather than putting the emphasis on them to adapt to the society they are in and understand your offence isn't an excuse for violence.

This is why I asked the question of "has anyone else flambeed the other major books?" and indeed said religious fundamentalists are snowflakes. If they can't take the notion that someone else thinks their "god" is ridiculous, that's their problem and theirs only. At the same time, I'm not aware of anyone trying the same provocative act recently with the Torah and the Bible.

That said, burning the Quran is not totally uncommon in Sweden, the far-right there including Rasmus Paludan, have also done it.

Treat all religions equally. And that means taking the rip out of them on occasion. However, I accept my stance is not popular in Sweden as polls indicate a majority of them are not keen on frying up any holy book. But I can respect their consistency, at least - it's just in the other direction to my preference.

[Herman 9,835]

34 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't believe so?

From 2002 but...

Since March 2017, counter-terrorism police and the intelligence services have stopped 32 plots they assess as aiming to cause mass casualties on British soil. Of these they assess 18 were Islamist related, and 12 were triggered by extreme rightwing terrorist ideology. The other two were linked to category known as left, anarchist or single-issue terrorism (LASIT).

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/may/16/terrorism-in-the-uk-the-rising-threat-of-far-right-extremists

 

It’s quite a lot though. It's the responsibility of all white people to sort out because it is only they that can. Or something... 

[Herman 9,835]

1 hour ago, king canary said:

People can get angry. But if you lack the self control to not go on full blown riots because someone hurt your feelings about a magic book that is on you.

I have no doubt that you'd not be offering the same defence of this sort of behaviour if people on the right rioted because of any perceived provocation or slight. It is an issue that some seem to infantilise Muslims and act like they need protection from someone offending them, rather than putting the emphasis on them to adapt to the society they are in and understand your offence isn't an excuse for violence.

I'm not defending their actions. There were 100 ****** easily provoked into doing something stupid. This isn't an Islam only problem. This could easily have been sports fans, music fans, political supporters. I'm tired of people using this stupidity to moan about one group that are your regular go to boogeymen. 

[Naturalcynic 674]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

I'm not defending their actions. There were 100 ****** easily provoked into doing something stupid. This isn't an Islam only problem. This could easily have been sports fans, music fans, political supporters. I'm tired of people using this stupidity to moan about one group that are your regular go to boogeymen. 

Although I think even you would have to admit that Islam has “previous” for this sort of thing on multiple occasions globally, not to mention the huge number of people some have slaughtered in Allah’s name.  Sadly, having lived in an Islamic country, I can testify that the faith is grossly intolerant of any other religion and its adherents genuinely look down on those of other creeds.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 minute ago, Naturalcynic said:

Although I think even you would have to admit that Islam has “previous” for this sort of thing on multiple occasions globally, not to mention the huge number of people some have slaughtered in Allah’s name.  Sadly, having lived in an Islamic country, I can testify that the faith is grossly intolerant of any other religion and its adherents genuinely look down on those of other creeds.

Islam as a religion is far less tolerant than most religions apart from some from Judaism (their problem is they are cut from the same tree).

That Muslims and Jews live in the UK surely gives credit to not only our standards of iving etc but to our tolerance. I use those two as radical examples. Of course we have Buddhists, Sikhs etc. 

That some Muslims in particular are inclined to observe their own religious teachings such as Sharia law, is up to them. But it bears no weight. If you break the law, no pleading or religious tolerance carrys any weight. If you are gulity, tough, you are punished.

Taking someones life is perhap the most grievous of crimes and the taking of life for a political or religious reason the most grievous of all. I don't believe in God so as far as I am concerned, nobody made you do it. Get rid of that defence for starters. You should be incarcerated for life and not a particularly comfortable life either.

The tariffs for crimes is off course one heck of a talking point but I believe terrorist acts are full life.

So the convicted terrorists of any creed or race have no excuse. And any form of protests by their supporters can be handled by the Police. I just don't understand the reluctance to use the full weight of the law. 

We can debate the various reasons used by terrorists for their violence but none of them matter if you are resorting to taking a life or many lives to support your gripe. Its not right legally or morally.

Does it not occur to you that much of the rioting and protesting is only occuring because nobody is ever brought to book. And while I have no desire to hav a Police state, I do believe we must back up arrests with punishments that mean something. Give one of them a wheelbarrow and a shovel and fill in the pot holes in my road for starters. Nobody will think them martyrs after that.

[Herman 9,835]

50 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Although I think even you would have to admit that Islam has “previous” for this sort of thing on multiple occasions globally, not to mention the huge number of people some have slaughtered in Allah’s name.  Sadly, having lived in an Islamic country, I can testify that the faith is grossly intolerant of any other religion and its adherents genuinely look down on those of other creeds.

This is true and I fully agree that a lot of Islamic countries and their brands of Islam are highly intolerant. 

Sadly this is becoming more widespread across the world. The Hindus in India are increasingly intolerant. The Christians in the US, Buddhists in Burma etc. A mixture of populist nationalism plus religion is taking off across the world and it is worrying. 

[Naturalcynic 674]

27 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Does it not occur to you that much of the rioting and protesting is only occuring because nobody is ever brought to book. And while I have no desire to hav a Police state, I do believe we must back up arrests with punishments that mean something. Give one of them a wheelbarrow and a shovel and fill in the pot holes in my road for starters. Nobody will think them martyrs after that.

Of course that occurs to me.  It’s all too clear that the powers that be, in this country and others, turn far too much of a blind eye when it comes to offences committed by a certain section of society.  And this is compounded by implicit support from some on the left who are so quick to cry racism and bigotry whenever anyone dares to point out the issues, grooming gangs being a case in point.

[nevermind, neoliberalism has had it 159]

18 hours ago, Naturalcynic said:

Lots of individuals might say, write and do things with the intention of provoking a reaction, including some who post comments on here, but civilised people don’t respond by rioting.

Civilised people are controlled by the norms, regulation and laws created to keep them in check, mainly.

You wait until the inaction's of our self serving puce politicians come home to roost and a school/Hospital and or other public building falls to pieces without warning, injuring or killing people/children, due to the expertise by industy and specialists, first issued 1994. You will see so called civilised people riot nationally and instantly.

[cambridgeshire canary 6,811]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

Isn't the biggest threat in the UK at the moment radicalised white, far right youths and adults, exploited by people like Robinson and Farage? 

How many terrorist attacks and bombings have Farage and Robinson and or their followers done? Just curious. And no, I'm not supporting them as they are both vile people who should probably be locked up but I am making a point.

Edited September 6, 2023 by cambridgeshire canary

[Herman 9,835]

Can you read? 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,597]

8 hours ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I'd completely disagree with your conclusion there - I don't see anything aggressive about the French separation of state and religion,  it is just very simple, sensible, clear cut and well established in their constitution and laws.

IMO it is infinitely preferable to the bizarre setup we have in this country of an established church (to which only a small minority of citizens belong) headed by a hereditary monarch who also happens our head of state and which, along with other religions, gets involved in our public life in entirely unjustifiable and undesirable ways - the education system being a prime example.

 

 

Then I suggest you move here and figure out what you're talking about. Or just read a bit.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2020/11/05/what-is-secularism-and-why-is-it-causing-such-divisions-in-france

Edited September 6, 2023 by littleyellowbirdie

[Naturalcynic 674]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

Isn't the biggest threat in the UK at the moment radicalised white, far right youths and adults, exploited by people like Robinson and Farage? 

Trying to be objective, and looking at recent history, no, I really don’t think it is.  In my opinion the threat from the far-right is minuscule and is massively over-hyped by the left who, while downplaying any threat from Islamism, claim to see “the Fash” where frankly in 99% of cases it simply doesn’t exist.  

[littleyellowbirdie 2,597]

6 hours ago, Herman said:

Isn't the biggest threat in the UK at the moment radicalised white, far right youths and adults, exploited by people like Robinson and Farage? 

This is a perfect example of why not to get all of your news from the Guardian.

Case in point, a Guardian headline that, on the face of it, supports your belief.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/19/fastest-growing-uk-terrorist-threat-is-from-far-right-say-police

FASTEST GROWING UK TERRORIST THREAT IS FROM FAR RIGHT SAY POLICE

It's only when you go a long long way down the article that they tell you...

'The remainder were jihadist, which remains by far the biggest terrorist threat to the UK and has stabilised at a very high level after years of growth.'

Which really does underline how appallingly biased the Guardian is, misleading without being technically inaccurate.

 

 

 

 

[A Load of Squit 5,222]

20 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said:

Trying to be objective, and looking at recent history, no, I really don’t think it is.  In my opinion the threat from the far-right is minuscule and is massively over-hyped by the left who, while downplaying any threat from Islamism, claim to see “the Fash” where frankly in 99% of cases it simply doesn’t exist.  

Recent enough for you?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12483843/Grammar-school-boy-deep-seated-right-wing-nationalism-sent-extremists-instructions-make-bombs-court-hears.html

'Through his use of Telegram he was able to engage with others who shared his extreme ideology and mindset.'

The court heard Wheeler was part of a group whose 'self professed purpose' was to provide a place for 'white nationalists'.

'There was racial hatred, anti-semitism, and more sinister desire to engage in violence, to promote shared aims and goals of this group.

'Far from being a young man who had been influenced by older, Malakai Wheeler was someone who willingly embraced the ideology of those who supported nationalism.

'An examination of Wheeler's devices recovered a hoard of right wing material, literature and manifestos of terrorists.'

The court heard in 142 documents posted to his own online collection, work of Adolf Hitler, Holocaust denier David Irving, British fascist leader Oswald Mosley and terrorists who had committed mass shootings were uploaded.

[Creative Midfielder 2,003]

31 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Then I suggest you move here and figure out what you're talking about. Or just read a bit.

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2020/11/05/what-is-secularism-and-why-is-it-causing-such-divisions-in-france

Umm.., one opinion piece and a far from convincing one at that.

And I presume that you're also claiming that Muslims don't experience similar and worse problems here?

If so, then I suggest you follow your own advice.

[Naturalcynic 674]

6 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

Recent enough for you?

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12483843/Grammar-school-boy-deep-seated-right-wing-nationalism-sent-extremists-instructions-make-bombs-court-hears.html

'Through his use of Telegram he was able to engage with others who shared his extreme ideology and mindset.'

The court heard Wheeler was part of a group whose 'self professed purpose' was to provide a place for 'white nationalists'.

'There was racial hatred, anti-semitism, and more sinister desire to engage in violence, to promote shared aims and goals of this group.

'Far from being a young man who had been influenced by older, Malakai Wheeler was someone who willingly embraced the ideology of those who supported nationalism.

'An examination of Wheeler's devices recovered a hoard of right wing material, literature and manifestos of terrorists.'

The court heard in 142 documents posted to his own online collection, work of Adolf Hitler, Holocaust denier David Irving, British fascist leader Oswald Mosley and terrorists who had committed mass shootings were uploaded.

And in comparison with the 2017 Manchester bomber, the 2005 London Tube attacks, the 2017 London Bridge stabbings etc etc, how many people had that schoolboy killed or maimed in his acts of terrorism?

[cambridgeshire canary 6,811]

14 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This is a perfect example of why not to get all of your news from the Guardian.

Case in point, a Guardian headline that, on the face of it, supports your belief.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/19/fastest-growing-uk-terrorist-threat-is-from-far-right-say-police

FASTEST GROWING UK TERRORIST THREAT IS FROM FAR RIGHT SAY POLICE

It's only when you go a long long way down the article that they tell you...

'The remainder were jihadist, which remains by far the biggest terrorist threat to the UK and has stabilised at a very high level after years of growth.'

Which really does underline how appallingly biased the Guardian is, misleading without being technically inaccurate.

 

 

 

 

I wonder why the far right is growing? I wonder what reason there could be? That's the question that needs to be answered if there is to be a way to put a stop to it.. But as we all know

Poverty + anger + rising tensions + feeling a loss of identity and culture= ?