womens world cup final England V Spain; The world cup final

[cambridgeshire canary 6,721]

Well, Spain really taking the mick with the time wasting but given the ref falls for it every time cant blame them

[canarydan23 4,060]

I cannot believe they gave that final to the ref from the Australia semi-final. She was absolutely appalling and overtly biased against England. Its a ****ing disgrace.

[FenwayFrank 2,459]

2 minutes ago, AJ said:

This second half has been awful. No shape, no midfield, cheaply losing possession every time they attempt to go forward. Taking off both of your best strikers and sticking two defenders upfront is just utterly bizarre tactics 

She is ready to take over from Southgate

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, cambridgeshire canary said:

Well, Spain really taking the mick with the time wasting but given the ref falls for it every time cant blame them

Ref should have been nowhere near this game.

[AJ 1,221]

Just now, cambridgeshire canary said:

Well, Spain really taking the mick with the time wasting but given the ref falls for it every time cant blame them

We would be doing the same if we were 1-0 up. We've had a lot of minutes since Spain scored and barely done anything to create a chance. Spain fully deserved it, England were very poor today unfortunately. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

Better team won that one. England battled hard, but Spain were better from 1-11, from the first minute to the last. Well done to them.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,187]

Bùgger ☹

Best team won. England just not good enough today 

[Scot-e-dog 34]

Sadly they chose the final to put in a hugely sub-par performance, especially by the midfield who seemed to be absent for the entire game.  Looks like the occasion got to them.  Very proud though.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Extra day's rest massively told in that game, disgraceful scheduling.

[Canary Wundaboy 1,359]

Earps did not deserve to be on the losing side in the final.

[bringbackchippy 51]

VAMOS!

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, bringbackchippy said:

VAMOS!

Don't tell me you've finally got your end away?!

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

2 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Extra day's rest massively told in that game, disgraceful scheduling.

Eh? When were both semi-finals played on the same day in a men's World Cup? In fact, just checked the 2015 and 2019 women's World Cup fixtures and again, the semi-finals were played on two separate days. Same old scheduling as far as I can tell.

[canarydan23 4,060]

Great World Cup overall, obviously a massive shame to have, being blunt, bottled the final.

But they were missing their Captain in Williamson, the player of the Euros in Mead and experienced midfielder Kirby.

When you throw in Spain's favourable scheduling and a referee with an obvious bias against England, you can't grumble too much about reaching the final hurdle, even if they did end up falling face first over it 

[Robert N. LiM 4,360]

The better team won, no question.

Very proud of that England team, though. What they've achieved over the last two years has been  sensational, on and off the field. An inspirational group of people who've changed a lot of attitudes towards women's sport for the better. They should hold their heads up very high.

[Robert N. LiM 4,360]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Great World Cup overall, obviously a massive shame to have, being blunt, bottled the final.

But they were missing their Captain in Williamson, the player of the Euros in Mead and experienced midfielder Kirby.

When you throw in Spain's favourable scheduling and a referee with an obvious bias against England, you can't grumble too much about reaching the final hurdle, even if they did end up falling face first over it 

Indeed. It's a generational achievement, not a 90-minute one.

[canarydan23 4,060]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Eh? When were both semi-finals played on the same day in a men's World Cup? In fact, just checked the 2015 and 2019 women's World Cup fixtures and again, the semi-finals were played on two separate days. Same old scheduling as far as I can tell.

Why don't you get your Google back out and look at the winners of the last few World Cups, and tell me if you notice anything coincidental about their semi-final scheduling. Men's and women's.

Edited August 20, 2023 by canarydan23

[Robert N. LiM 4,360]

6 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Eh? When were both semi-finals played on the same day in a men's World Cup? In fact, just checked the 2015 and 2019 women's World Cup fixtures and again, the semi-finals were played on two separate days. Same old scheduling as far as I can tell.

Yes. Spain dominating possession was surely a much bigger factor in England's clear tiredness (of mind and body) towards the end 

[rock bus 852]

Very disappointing performance from England, felt they froze on the day.

Fair play to Spain, they played really well and deserved the win today,.

Been an excellent World Cup overall and let’s hope it sees the women’s game grow and grow.

[canarydan23 4,060]

@TheGunnShow

I'll do it for you. When the semi-finals have been on separate days, no women's side has ever won from the later semi-final.

In the men's, it hasn't happened since 2010.

It's a huge advantage and ridiculous that it continues to happen.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

9 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

Why don't you get your Google back out and look at the winners of the last few World Cups, and tell me if you notice anything coincidental about their semi-final scheduling.

Of course, it had absolutely nothing to do with the USA being the best women's team by some distance during the last three World Cups, right?

(And incidentally, in the 2011 one, the semi-finals were played on the same day, but not in 2015 and 2019).

Spain were the better side by some distance in this game, and their possession game basically did to England what Farke's possession game did to many opposing teams. Wore them out. 

EDIT: Note you mentioned the key players missing for England. That was always an issue, was visible even in their earlier games.

Edited August 20, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[TheBaldOne66 685]

Not just the men’s game with poor officials, the antics of the Spanish in the last 20 minutes was terrible and needed a stronger referee. And why the Spanish 18 didn’t get a second yellow for booting the ball away beggars belief

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, TheBaldOne66 said:

Not just the men’s game with poor officials, the antics of the Spanish in the last 20 minutes was terrible and needed a stronger referee. And why the Spanish 18 didn’t get a second yellow for booting the ball away beggars belief

She was weak as **** v Australia too, completely influenced by the crowd, it's appalling anyone could have watched that and thought she'd be good for the final.

[canarydan23 4,060]

5 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Of course, it had absolutely nothing to do with the USA being the best women's team by some distance during the last three World Cups, right?

(And incidentally, in the 2011 one, the semi-finals were played on the same day, but not in 2015 and 2019).

Spain were the better side by some distance in this game, and their possession game basically did to England what Farke's possession game did to many opposing teams. Wore them out.

2007?

If you think a side getting 20% extra recuperation, rest and preparation time isn't massively beneficial, at the end of a tournament that takes place soon after the end of a domestic season, then I don't know what to tell you.

It's not a coincidence that winners from early semi-finals win so much more frequently. Particularly these days when so much effort and resource is poured into recovery and preparation. An extra 24 hours is absolute gold dust.

Edited August 20, 2023 by canarydan23

[Robert N. LiM 4,360]

4 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

It's a huge advantage and ridiculous that it continues to happen.

 

4 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

Spain were the better side by some distance in this game, and their possession game basically did to England what Farke's possession game did to many opposing teams. Wore them out.

Agree with both of you. The schedule definitely confers an advantage on the winner of the later semi final, and surely it should be possible for both semis to be played back to back on the same day.

But I'm not sure how much of a factor it was in today's result. Much more down to tiki-taka

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

7 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

2007?

A dominant Germany side of the time with the likes of Nadine Angerer in goal and Birgit Prinz up top, defending their title from four years earlier?

Incidentally, 2003 had semi-finals played on the same day, 2007 did not, Germany won both regardless.

On top of that, the final in 2003 was played a week after the semis.

Edited August 20, 2023 by TheGunnShow

[canarydan23 4,060]

1 minute ago, TheGunnShow said:

A dominant Germany side of the time with the likes of Nadine Angerer in goal and Birgit Prinz up top, defending their title from four years earlier?

Incidentally, 2003 had semi-finals played on the same day, 2007 did not, Germany won both regardless.

Japan were defending their title in 2015 and unlike the USA, had a 100% record going into the final.

You can dismiss it as a coincidence if you want, but it's patently obvious it's a massive advantage. I'm surprised someone who does long distance running doesn't get that.

I recently did a Basketball coaching course and they showed us a study that measured the recovery of countermovement jump and sprints as the physical measures and creatine kinase, testosterone and cortisone for biological measures. It can take 4-5 days for sprint performance to fully return to pre-match levels (oddly given the closeness of their fixtures, it typically took longer to recover from Basketball than Football). Creatine kinase levels also took up to 5 days to return to pre-match levels.

It is also worth noting that the athletes in the study played a match and then did not return to the training field either.

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to convince you; it's so clearly a benefit that common sense alone should be sufficient to arrive at the conclusion. If that's not there, what I've just typed won't sink in anyway.

Hey ho, it's distracted me from my disappointment. 

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

1 minute ago, canarydan23 said:

Japan were defending their title in 2015 and unlike the USA, had a 100% record going into the final.

You can dismiss it as a coincidence if you want, but it's patently obvious it's a massive advantage. I'm surprised someone who does long distance running doesn't get that.

I recently did a Basketball coaching course and they showed us a study that measured the recovery of countermovement jump and sprints as the physical measures and creatine kinase, testosterone and cortisone for biological measures. It can take 4-5 days for sprint performance to fully return to pre-match levels (oddly given the closeness of their fixtures, it typically took longer to recover from Basketball than Football). Creatine kinase levels also took up to 5 days to return to pre-match levels.

It is also worth noting that the athletes in the study played a match and then did not return to the training field either.

I'm not sure why I'm even bothering to convince you; it's so clearly a benefit that common sense alone should be sufficient to arrive at the conclusion. If that's not there, what I've just typed won't sink in anyway.

Hey ho, it's distracted me from my disappointment. 

And they had 4 days to recover. I know full well about the need for recovery, as you rightly said with my running background. However, there are a litany of variables that make recovery a hard one to quantify in the grand scheme of things. You mentioned some of the much more likely ones with the litany of key England players who were out injured and therefore unavailable.

Furthermore, you mention recovery and the Women's World Cup - USA beat Norway in the 3rd place play-off in 2007 despite one less day to recover. Sweden beat France in 2011 although their semi was later on the same day, so marginally less time to recover. England beat Germany in 2015 after extra time, despite a day less rest so you'd really expect them to fall off if a tired team goes to extra time. Sweden beat England in the same game in 2019 - and again, one less day to rest. The pattern you suggest held up this time around when Sweden beat Australia having had one more day but not so much in the others.

Would it be a factor? Potentially, after the four days you said. But there were many other factors that appear much weightier to me, including the key players missing through injury and the technical excellence of the Spanish team under pressure when keeping the ball, making England run more than they wanted.

I'll also point out that re. the bit I put in italics, that raises separate questions about what the athletes did for recovery work, but you might not have been privy to that info. It's pretty well-known that the worst thing you can do after a heavy session is nothing the day after, as blood flow through muscles and gentle exercise works far, far better. If (but I suspect neither of us know here) those athletes basically did ****-all for four days, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had not recovered.

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

And they had 4 days to recover. I know full well about the need for recovery, as you rightly said with my running background. However, there are a litany of variables that make recovery a hard one to quantify in the grand scheme of things. You mentioned some of the much more likely ones with the litany of key England players who were out injured and therefore unavailable.

Furthermore, you mention recovery and the Women's World Cup - USA beat Norway in the 3rd place play-off in 2007 despite one less day to recover. Sweden beat France in 2011 although their semi was later on the same day, so marginally less time to recover. England beat Germany in 2015 after extra time, despite a day less rest so you'd really expect them to fall off if a tired team goes to extra time. Sweden beat England in the same game in 2019 - and again, one less day to rest. The pattern you suggest held up this time around when Sweden beat Australia having had one more day but not so much in the others.

Would it be a factor? Potentially, after the four days you said. But there were many other factors that appear much weightier to me, including the key players missing through injury and the technical excellence of the Spanish team under pressure when keeping the ball, making England run more than they wanted.

I'll also point out that re. the bit I put in italics, that raises separate questions about what the athletes did for recovery work, but you might not have been privy to that info. It's pretty well-known that the worst thing you can do after a heavy session is nothing the day after, as blood flow through muscles and gentle exercise works far, far better. If (but I suspect neither of us know here) those athletes basically did ****-all for four days, I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had not recovered.

You're using 3rd/4th place playoffs matches as data? Have you ever watched one?

Spain having 20% extra recovery was a big, big advantage. It just was, no amount of hair-splitting, comparison with games that are virtually meaningless friendlies or pointing out that a team won a final when they had to play a few hours later as opposed to a whole day, will change that.

It doesn't make it impossible to win, clearly. Like I said, I mentioned that it happened in the men's World Cup in 2010. And prior to that, it happened in 2002 as well. But sports science has come on massively in recent years and that extra 20% is absolutely huge in the context of modern competition, and likely to become even more significant.

It's a sop to the TV companies to allow this massive advantage to exist, it needs to stop.

[TheGunnShow 5,940]

22 minutes ago, canarydan23 said:

You're using 3rd/4th place playoffs matches as data? Have you ever watched one?

Spain having 20% extra recovery was a big, big advantage. It just was, no amount of hair-splitting, comparison with games that are virtually meaningless friendlies or pointing out that a team won a final when they had to play a few hours later as opposed to a whole day, will change that.

It doesn't make it impossible to win, clearly. Like I said, I mentioned that it happened in the men's World Cup in 2010. And prior to that, it happened in 2002 as well. But sports science has come on massively in recent years and that extra 20% is absolutely huge in the context of modern competition, and likely to become even more significant.

It's a sop to the TV companies to allow this massive advantage to exist, it needs to stop.

Of course I've watched them. They're often tedious affairs as they're games that no-one really wants to play, but we're talking about physical recovery, not to mention there's even less recovery between the semi-finals and that match. The outcomes of the majority of those still contradict your initial stance, and one of the finals was played a whole week after both semi-finals so no longer relevant if we accept 4/5 days is enough time to recover as per the study you quoted.

Furthermore, you're assuming that recovery runs linear. It doesn't. 20% more time to recover does not mean you will have recovered by an additional 20%, and there are plenty of ways of speeding up recovery. Nutrition also plays a part, thorough cool downs directly after the match, recovery training a day or even two after it.

You said it happened in 2002 - but did anyone really think that fairly average Germany side, who mainly got there on the back of a truly outstanding performance from Oliver Kahn, had a chance against that Brazil side? It happened in 1998 too as France played the later semi, then stuffed Brazil in the final. But then they had home advantage and Brazil were reeling on Ronaldo's fitness.

Summa summarum, could recovery have played a part? A minor one, considering they had four days to recover. I'd agree that it could be more substantial if it were only three days and therefore below the period of time stated in the study you cited. But I'll suggest that the players missing for England, combined with Spain's comfort in possession, were much more weighty factors.

EDIT: Basically, there are too many factors to be borne in mind to draw such a conclusion re. recovery time, IMO. There are more obvious issues to look at first.

Edited August 20, 2023 by TheGunnShow