My best guess as to what Wagner is thinking...

[lake district canary 4,544]

4 minutes ago, Serinus Canaria Domestica said:

As a boy of about 11, for Xmas, I received an Annual containing a story called the Linchester Leakers. A new coach took over the school team, kicked out the star centre forward, the archetypal big lad who played centre half etc etc and picked an eleven Jacks of all trades, well 10 since he still needed a goalie: the goalie probably could play out from the back but memory fails. This was written in about 1960…..

Well the team played with complete fluidity, hence the Leakers nickname. Naturally they trounced the opposition who had never seen anything like it and didn’t know who or where to mark. The stars were only allowed back once they had learned to play several positions.

It was fiction, pre dated Total Football, but has stuck with me for 60+ years. We obviously won’t be getting the fictional extrem but I wonder if this is the sort of fluidity that DW aspires to?

No, but it was what Farkeball - at it's best - was all about - the way players moved around into different positions all the time, bamboozling the opposition who couldn't deal with all the interchanging positions and fluidity.  Wagner may want us to be like that, but it didn't look like it judging from last season's efforts......

[Badger 2,412]

32 minutes ago, Channon’s Windmill said:

I guess we have to see how that goes then, our midfield has been so weak and easy to play through since Skipp departed I am not convinced. 

I guess that Wagner feels this is due to ineffective pressing. However, agree that will have to see - but Wagner has a reputation of building defensively solid teams - it's scoring that has been the trouble with his sides.

[Ken Hairy 3,779]

13 hours ago, Google Bot said:

Sure he has, and same number of starts too, right?

 

For a guy that needs gametime it's pretty ****.  Not one start, not one game played over 45 mins, and just 12 mins today.

Even then he nearly got through on goal to score in the measly time offered today.

Was about to say the same, it's pretty clear Tzolis has had a lot less game time than the rest.

[Chichcan 148]

2 hours ago, shefcanary said:

Think back to when 'Uddersfield under Wagner came to the Carra and completely outmuscled Norwich on the day to run out comfortable winners.

They didn't have a playmaker as such, although Mooy got plenty of time in the ball. They didn't even have a recognised striker. Their players that day have not gone on to be world beaters. Wagner just got them playing together as a hard working cohesive unit. 

As such, people looking for a creative spark are probably wasting energy. What we have to look forward to is Norwich grinding out victories through sheer hard work. Almost bullying teams into submission. No real stars, but working to a plan. The signs are beginning to shoe he is getting there.

Won't suit everyone ...

I absolutely agree with this

Wagner won't be looking for a playmaker in the Emi mould as he believes high pressing and turnovers high up the pitch make a playmaker less important 

We also won't get a Skipp like CDM as he wants the midfield to rotate instead

I think there have been signs of a better shape this year and you can see his style being learned by the squad

I expect we'll be much tighter at the back than we have been probably since Hughton, but we probably won't score many

[Sooty57 403]

17 hours ago, Terminally Yellow said:

I would expect Daniel Farke has never even entered his mind.

Something I can't say about people on here who are obsessed. 

Not at all obsessed with Farke - just extremely p*55*ed off with the drop in performance of our team over the past couple of seasons. I doubt that fans of any team particularly like being turned over by a previous manager.

[Terminally Yellow 2,477]

10 minutes ago, Sooty57 said:

Not at all obsessed with Farke - just extremely p*55*ed off with the drop in performance of our team over the past couple of seasons. I doubt that fans of any team particularly like being turned over by a previous manager.

I never suggested it was you I was referring to. Apologies if I gave that impression - it genuinely was not.

[Google Bot 3,298]

10 hours ago, hogesar said:

So taking away yesterday's friendly he's basically had the same game time as the rest of them, yeah? Within a few minutes. 

The point I made is that after that friendly I felt down-hearted that Tzolis wasn't getting time.  So it's pretty integral to how I felt, and demonstrative as fact, too.

[Ulfotto 642]

That is pretty sweet analysis I guess it means Tzolis is Wagner least preferred wide option or he is going to start the next game!

[SwearyCanary 1,179]

Tzolis has shown nothing. No disappointment from his lack of inclusion from me. He is substitute level at best right now, so why waste limited preseason on upping his minutes as opposed to a starter, albeit an also not great starter. 

[ged in the onion bag 856]

9 minutes ago, SwearyCanary said:

Tzolis has shown nothing. No disappointment from his lack of inclusion from me. He is substitute level at best right now, so why waste limited preseason on upping his minutes as opposed to a starter, albeit an also not great starter. 

The club have seriously mismanaged that lad.  Feel for him.   If he is behind Platcheta then they may as well let the lad go and find another club.... put him out of his misery.     Seriously, if he is behind PP then he must have no financial value whatsoever. 

[hogesar 9,724]

15 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

The club have seriously mismanaged that lad.  Feel for him.   If he is behind Platcheta then they may as well let the lad go and find another club.... put him out of his misery.     Seriously, if he is behind PP then he must have no financial value whatsoever. 

I'm not sure he does hold much value. Had he gone and had a really successful loan spell like Rashica then I'm sure we'd have cashed in.

[canarybubbles 1,937]

10 hours ago, ged in the onion bag said:

The club have seriously mismanaged that lad.  Feel for him.   If he is behind Platcheta then they may as well let the lad go and find another club.... put him out of his misery.     Seriously, if he is behind PP then he must have no financial value whatsoever. 

If he's a wonderkid, we've screwed him up completely. We may as well let him go and be a star somewhere else. If he's crap, we spaffed around 9m on a donkey and we may as well just cut our losses. If he's mediocre, God knows what we can do. I don't see how another loan would help him out. He's had no stability for two seasons and I don't think a stint at Stockport County would do much to help him improve. To me he seems like a player who might have worked in a Farke team, but he looks unsuited to Wagner's style, which doesn't seem to put much value on technical ability and an incisive, rather than frenetic, approach to the game. Placheta has read the runes. He knows if he runs about enough and makes a show of pressing and covering every blade of grass, he'll get ahead of someone who can actually do things with a football.

We've got a friendly coming up against Olympiakos. Could we loan him out there? He'd probably feel much more comfortable back in a league where he was highly regarded before he came to Norwich and also much happier if part of his problem is adapting to a different culture. We'd probably have to pay most of his wages but that would be true at Stockport.

[lake district canary 4,544]

Confidence is the issue. Tzolis is still only 21. Idah is a year older and the club are still giving him time to come to fruition, so suspect he will be given more chances to prove himself. He has talent, we've seen it, like with Idah....but like with Idah, they need to find their confidence.

[ged in the onion bag 856]

7 hours ago, canarybubbles said:

If he's a wonderkid, we've screwed him up completely. We may as well let him go and be a star somewhere else. If he's crap, we spaffed around 9m on a donkey and we may as well just cut our losses. If he's mediocre, God knows what we can do. I don't see how another loan would help him out. He's had no stability for two seasons and I don't think a stint at Stockport County would do much to help him improve. To me he seems like a player who might have worked in a Farke team, but he looks unsuited to Wagner's style, which doesn't seem to put much value on technical ability and an incisive, rather than frenetic, approach to the game. Placheta has read the runes. He knows if he runs about enough and makes a show of pressing and covering every blade of grass, he'll get ahead of someone who can actually do things with a football.

We've got a friendly coming up against Olympiakos. Could we loan him out there? He'd probably feel much more comfortable back in a league where he was highly regarded before he came to Norwich and also much happier if part of his problem is adapting to a different culture. We'd probably have to pay most of his wages but that would be true at Stockport.

That’s a reasonable assessment.    To be honest, I still have no clue what Wagners style is and I’m not sure he does either.    

if he’s trying to work with what he’s got, then he’s going to find it hard to have a particular style as the tool bag is pretty bare!    It does amuse me when fans at this time of year get severe doses of irrationality and think we are a good team about to sparkle. 
 

Platcheta has never shown the kind of quality Tzolis has (say against Birmingham) and it seems to me , our coaching staff have utterly failed to improve Tzolis and the managers have never really given him a proper go.   Yes, there may be reasons but Platcheta getting more game time, dear oh dear!

[canarybubbles 1,937]

29 minutes ago, ged in the onion bag said:

That’s a reasonable assessment.    To be honest, I still have no clue what Wagners style is and I’m not sure he does either.    

if he’s trying to work with what he’s got, then he’s going to find it hard to have a particular style as the tool bag is pretty bare!    It does amuse me when fans at this time of year get severe doses of irrationality and think we are a good team about to sparkle. 
 

Platcheta has never shown the kind of quality Tzolis has (say against Birmingham) and it seems to me , our coaching staff have utterly failed to improve Tzolis and the managers have never really given him a proper go.   Yes, there may be reasons but Platcheta getting more game time, dear oh dear!

I think Tzolis is almost certainly out of the door. Connor Southwell has talked in three consecutive podcasts/match reports about him going out on loan, which I personally believe reflects conversations he has had off-record with Wagner.

I just hope they sell him for the player's sake because then he has a chance of a future. In my opinion, keeping the likes of Idah and Placheta in the squad at his expense would be an insult to a player with much more talent.

To be honest, I have concerns about Tzolis's mentality and his confidence to impose himself on a game, but I thought that was why we had head coaches. Smith couldn't be bothered to try to develop Tzolis because it was too much like hard work and he obviously thought he was slumming it at Norwich. Wagner, to be fair, brought him back from his loan and has put the effort in and Tzolis is now looking fit, but Wagner's style requires players who can run and run for 90+ minutes rather than players who can make a killer pass or turn a game in a moment.

No Pukki, no Dowell, no Cantwell, no Buendia, no Aarons. Let's hope we get the results because we're not going to get much stylish football.

Edited July 17, 2023 by canarybubbles

[ged in the onion bag 856]

On 16/07/2023 at 12:39, Serinus Canaria Domestica said:

As a boy of about 11, for Xmas, I received an Annual containing a story called the Linchester Leakers. A new coach took over the school team, kicked out the star centre forward, the archetypal big lad who played centre half etc etc and picked an eleven Jacks of all trades, well 10 since he still needed a goalie: the goalie probably could play out from the back but memory fails. This was written in about 1960…..

 

Well the team played with complete fluidity, hence the Leakers nickname. Naturally they trounced the opposition who had never seen anything like it and didn’t know who or where to mark. The stars were only allowed back once they had learned to play several positions.

 

It was fiction, pre dated Total Football, but has stuck with me for 60+ years. We obviously won’t be getting the fictional extrem but I wonder if this is the sort of fluidity that DW aspires to?

Guardiola did that with Barca too, maybe he read about the leakers!     

[hogesar 9,724]

As King says, football is littered with young players who have a good couple of seasons outside of the top 5 European leagues, who then get a move to England or A.N.Other and it turns out they weren't as good as people thought.

No-one can say 100% certain that is the case with Tzolis but it's my personal opinion on him.

If you're a defender up against him in the Championship, are you concerned if Tzolis is on the pitch?

Based on every game we've seen, he's not:

- Going to out-pace you

- Out-skill you

- Be a physical presence

- Make clever runs in-behind

He might play a decent through ball. Might. There's been about 3 of them in his entire career at Norwich to date.