Squad/ Group quality not reflected in results acheived

[Positive_Canary 48]

Not normally one to advocate rapid changes in the manager, but having taken the time to reflect after our last game before the WC break, it does seem to me that we are treading water as a club, if we are genuinely seeking to be in the mix as contenders for automatic promotion.

Struggling to remember any recent games, where we have truly dominated or put any opposing team to the sword. 

There seems to be a nervousness about the group, despite having obvious quality at Championship level and it is telling that this even seems to be rubbing off on Pukki, a proven goalscorer whose confidence seems shot.

We know from the Lambert era and from periods of Farke-ball how important it is for the players to be minded to think that they are unbeatable...and we seem some way away from that with Smith. I do wonder if he came overloaded with negative baggage after the Villa sacking. His demeanour is sapping for watching fans and he doesn't encourage or promote the atmosphere at games, adding to the overall sense of anxiety during virtually every game which we play.

I doubt Webber will have the courage to pull the trigger, but it would be a catastrophic decision not to act, if we end up outside the play-off places, or are beaten attempting to repeat what Neil achieved.

We don't have a given right to be promoted, but when I look at what he has to pick from compared to other clubs and then look at the  performances currently being served up, there feels like a huge discrepancy between the two. 

 

[GJL Mid-Norfolk Canary 2,022]

Webber?

These next 4 weeks should be the most important for the club of the season. Webber should be firstly sacking our inept manager and hiring a new one to take charge and work with these players in this mid season break

Secondly he should then be focusing on the upcoming january transfer window which then follows a fortnight later.

Instead he'll once again be away climbing f*cking mountains whilst his wife allows this charade of an arrangement to continue.

One thing is a sure as hell...if he'd have blagged himself a job at Chelsea, they wouldn't be allowing him to do that

 

[canarybubbles 2,107]

If we don't sack Smith today (Monday 14 November), we can write this season off IMO. No point getting hopeful if we win or disgruntled if we lose: the dice has not been rolled and we're stuck with a failing manager and a sporting director who places his own prickly pride before the good of the club. Smith has had an entire year and we are certainly no better, and possibly even worse, than the day he arrived, despite new signings who seem better than the dross we were lumbered with last season. Why is he suddenly going to transform overnight into someone who can inspire this group of players to promotion?

If he's not sacked today, it's just putting off the inevitable. I agree with the poster (sorry, forgot who) who said that both Smith and Webber will go at the end of this season when the failure is finally beyond argument and we are more or less back at square one on the pitch, and all we have to show from the promise of the last few years are the improvements to the club's infrastructure which everyone agrees Webber should be given credit for.

[The Real Buh 3,597]

The situation is hopeless.

How can Stuart Webber sleep at night knowing he’s putting the club down this road and he’s just going to f@£k off up a mountain?

He’s a disgrace and legacy wise? The hall of shame with Lambert beckons. I don’t give a f@&k if you put a swimming pool in at Conley, loser.

[Ulfotto 723]

I’m sorry but I don’t get the argument that we should be doing better with the group of players we have.

Who are these quality players we have? We have a bunch of players who have failed hopelessly twice in the premier league. Probably many of them don’t want to go back there and many are out of contract next year as well. Confidence is brittle as you would expect from a team that concede over 80 goals last season.

I’m unclear on who people are referring to when people say we have too much quality we simply don’t. We have lots of good championship players hence we are a good championship team hovering around the playoffs.

[canarybubbles 2,107]

8 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

I’m sorry but I don’t get the argument that we should be doing better with the group of players we have.

Who are these quality players we have? We have a bunch of players who have failed hopelessly twice in the premier league. Probably many of them don’t want to go back there and many are out of contract next year as well. Confidence is brittle as you would expect from a team that concede over 80 goals last season.

I’m unclear on who people are referring to when people say we have too much quality we simply don’t. We have lots of good championship players hence we are a good championship team hovering around the playoffs.

Many of these players were good enough to get 94 and 97 points in the last two seasons which we played in this division.

If confidence is brittle, it's up to the head coach to build it up again.

If we were playing good football and hovering around the playoffs, there would be hope that the quality of football was going to turn into better results at some point. But we're not playing good football, except for the occasional twenty-minute spurt, so hovering around the playoffs and looking ropy seems the best we can hope for under Smith.

[Capt. Pants 4,685]

Anyone of our starting XI pretty much walks straight into a team in this league. It's not about the potential of our players.

The issue is they are being held back by a manager who for some reason just cannot get them to play. Sometimes it happens in football and it's happened to far better coaches than Smith.

Unfortunately he needs to go sooner rather than later.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,957]

3 hours ago, Ulfotto said:

I’m sorry but I don’t get the argument that we should be doing better with the group of players we have.

Who are these quality players we have? We have a bunch of players who have failed hopelessly twice in the premier league. Probably many of them don’t want to go back there and many are out of contract next year as well. Confidence is brittle as you would expect from a team that concede over 80 goals last season.

I’m unclear on who people are referring to when people say we have too much quality we simply don’t. We have lots of good championship players hence we are a good championship team hovering around the playoffs.

Totally agree. Really regular good performers you have Pukki, Sargent, Ramsey, McLean, Aarons, and Hanley who stand out for me.

Giannioulis is pretty decent.

Cantwell, Sara, Nunez, Hayden, MacAllum, Byram, are all curate's eggish in that they all have flashes like there's more to come from them with time and work.

That's the limit of the standout/half way stand out players for me. The idea that this is a group that should be world beaters, or even Championship beaters, without some serious work is just nonsense.

Edited November 14, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Ulfotto 723]

4 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Anyone of our starting XI pretty much walks straight into a team in this league. It's not about the potential of our players.

The issue is they are being held back by a manager who for some reason just cannot get them to play. Sometimes it happens in football and it's happened to far better coaches than Smith.

Unfortunately he needs to go sooner rather than later.

I just don’t see this. After the Watford and Burnley games I just don’t see it. Who exactly that we have would walk into the Burnley starting team? We have some good championship players no doubt, we have some players with potential but to say we have players who would walk into other of the top teams is just not right.

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 930]

6 hours ago, The Real Buh said:

The situation is hopeless.

How can Stuart Webber sleep at night knowing he’s putting the club down this road and he’s just going to f@£k off up a mountain?

He’s a disgrace and legacy wise? The hall of shame with Lambert beckons. I don’t give a f@&k if you put a swimming pool in at Conley, loser.

Lambert took us from league one to the Premiership and left us in a 100 times better position than he found it. The only shame for Lambert was the way he forced through a move and later in his career took over the bin men.
 

It’s a farce to compare Lambert to Webber who will leave us in arguably a worse state than he found it right now all whilst bashing McNally along the way. When Lambert left we were an established premier league side making profit what are we now? £56’000’000 in debt and a mediocre championship side which is exactly where we were when Webber arrived pretty much. 
 

Webbers self funding bs is what’s got us in this mess. If we’d kept all our best players I’m 100% sure we’d be an established premier league side now. Imagine having a front 4 of Pukki Buendia Maddison and Cantwell the first Farke season in the Prem. We’d of stayed up at a canter which would of cleared all the debt.  

[By Hook or Ian crook 930]

19 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

I just don’t see this. After the Watford and Burnley games I just don’t see it. Who exactly that we have would walk into the Burnley starting team? We have some good championship players no doubt, we have some players with potential but to say we have players who would walk into other of the top teams is just not right.

 

Hanley, Aaron’s, Pukki all walk into any side at this level. The rest is up for debate. 

[Ulfotto 723]

1 hour ago, By Hook or Ian crook said:

Hanley, Aaron’s, Pukki all walk into any side at this level. The rest is up for debate. 

I would agree with this but would they walk into any premier league team I feel the answer is no. That must be the aim for any championship team to have players who can cut it as premier league level. We simple do not have any premier league players in waiting.

Where are the Buendia, Skipp, Godfrey etc.. or from other recently promoted teams where are the Toney, Phillips, Billing etc..

[keelansgrandad 6,680]

I believe that coached better we have some decent top of the Championship players. Is there a better RB than Max? Gunn looks a good keeper. We know Kenny, in the right position is good enough. Todd must have a reason he doesn't play. We have seen from Sara some flashes of individuality. Teemu and Sarge are good enough. And there is some promise in the younger academy lads who have come through.

Its purely the coaching and tactics as far as I can see. For instance, we need a goal, bring on Onel. How many have we scored from those situations? If he isn't good enough to start in a sluggish team then he just isn't good enough. But don't pressure him to go out and change things. It isn't fair on him. And Hanley is no captain. He isn't a leader. Give it to Max.

[By Hook or Ian crook 930]

18 minutes ago, Ulfotto said:

I would agree with this but would they walk into any premier league team I feel the answer is no. That must be the aim for any championship team to have players who can cut it as premier league level. We simple do not have any premier league players in waiting.

Where are the Buendia, Skipp, Godfrey etc.. or from other recently promoted teams where are the Toney, Phillips, Billing etc..

I think Aaron’s is most likely the one who would get into a bottom half Prem side. The others bench warmers. 

[sgncfc 1,300]

6 hours ago, Capt. Pants said:

Anyone of our starting XI pretty much walks straight into a team in this league.

Haven't our results and performances to date shown us anything?

As long as our supporter base trots this line out, there is no way of managing expectations. It simply isn't true. Probably Pukki (if his head is right) and maybe Sargent. Maybe Maclean gets on the bench. Maybe Hayden, once he's properly match fit, which he clearly isn't yet. Maybe Aarons, if their system doesn't require their right back to be a defender. (The general misconception of his quality is simply staggering). No one else gets near the Burnley team, or the Sheffield United team, or the Watford team.

Our starting eleven is an average quality Championship team - not in any way superior to any other top Championship team. We have yet to defeat a top Championship side this season. I've lost count of how many points we have lost so far from winning positions, but it's at least 10. That is a mentality issue - good squads don't do that.

On Saturday, we saw the complete lack of any on field leadership again - the pattern of the game was the same as almost every other home game. Once we blew ourselves out, our lack of fitness once again caught up with us. Playing well for 20 minutes a game will get us enough points to be mid-table; it won't get us any further. That's where we are.

Once and for all, these players are not the best squad in this league. Not even close.

For those of you still harbouring hopes of a top two finish, it's time to recognise that isn't going to happen - we lose too many games. If we make the playoffs (a big if) we don't have the mentality in this squad to win them.

The players weren't good enough last season and they're not good enough this season.

 

 

[Capt. Pants 4,685]

1 minute ago, sgncfc said:

Haven't our results and performances to date shown us anything?

As long as our supporter base trots this line out, there is no way of managing expectations. It simply isn't true. Probably Pukki (if his head is right) and maybe Sargent. Maybe Maclean gets on the bench. Maybe Hayden, once he's properly match fit, which he clearly isn't yet. Maybe Aarons, if their system doesn't require their right back to be a defender. (The general misconception of his quality is simply staggering). No one else gets near the Burnley team, or the Sheffield United team, or the Watford team.

Our starting eleven is an average quality Championship team - not in any way superior to any other top Championship team. We have yet to defeat a top Championship side this season. I've lost count of how many points we have lost so far from winning positions, but it's at least 10. That is a mentality issue - good squads don't do that.

On Saturday, we saw the complete lack of any on field leadership again - the pattern of the game was the same as almost every other home game. Once we blew ourselves out, our lack of fitness once again caught up with us. Playing well for 20 minutes a game will get us enough points to be mid-table; it won't get us any further. That's where we are.

Once and for all, these players are not the best squad in this league. Not even close.

For those of you still harbouring hopes of a top two finish, it's time to recognise that isn't going to happen - we lose too many games. If we make the playoffs (a big if) we don't have the mentality in this squad to win them.

The players weren't good enough last season and they're not good enough this season.

 

 

Well that's a pretty damning assessment of the squad assembled by Webber! The fitness thing is a concern and is another stick to beat Smith with as far as I'm concerned.

 

 

[By Hook or Ian crook 930]

43 minutes ago, sgncfc said:

Haven't our results and performances to date shown us anything?

As long as our supporter base trots this line out, there is no way of managing expectations. It simply isn't true. Probably Pukki (if his head is right) and maybe Sargent. Maybe Maclean gets on the bench. Maybe Hayden, once he's properly match fit, which he clearly isn't yet. Maybe Aarons, if their system doesn't require their right back to be a defender. (The general misconception of his quality is simply staggering). No one else gets near the Burnley team, or the Sheffield United team, or the Watford team.

Our starting eleven is an average quality Championship team - not in any way superior to any other top Championship team. We have yet to defeat a top Championship side this season. I've lost count of how many points we have lost so far from winning positions, but it's at least 10. That is a mentality issue - good squads don't do that.

On Saturday, we saw the complete lack of any on field leadership again - the pattern of the game was the same as almost every other home game. Once we blew ourselves out, our lack of fitness once again caught up with us. Playing well for 20 minutes a game will get us enough points to be mid-table; it won't get us any further. That's where we are.

Once and for all, these players are not the best squad in this league. Not even close.

For those of you still harbouring hopes of a top two finish, it's time to recognise that isn't going to happen - we lose too many games. If we make the playoffs (a big if) we don't have the mentality in this squad to win them.

The players weren't good enough last season and they're not good enough this season.

 

 

I think the squad is up there with the best in the league. A majority of the team has already won promotion from this league a number of them twice we have the same back 5 that’s only conceded 36 goals in this league the last time around. For my money it’s all down to bad coaching. Pukki the same he scored for fun at this level the last two seasons somethings not right there. 
 

i totally agree our fitness levels now have dropped significantly from under Farke to a point it’s almost embarrassing to watch a bunch of players getting paid thousands of pounds a week who can’t even put a shift in for 90 mins. I think that alone should be a sackable offence for a head coach. 

[Indy 3,412]

Sargent this season is a top player in this division, Cantwell would get in most sides, I can comfortably say a decent man manager with a system and a dynamic attitude to demand most out of this group would push any side in this division. Lethargy has taken hold, starting at the top with Delia giving Webber family free license to do as they wish, who subsequently allow Smith to have zero pressure on him which feeds to the players and terraces. Te atmosphere at Carrow Road this season reflects that.

[yellowrider120 867]

36 minutes ago, Indy said:

Sargent this season is a top player in this division, Cantwell would get in most sides, I can comfortably say a decent man manager with a system and a dynamic attitude to demand most out of this group would push any side in this division. Lethargy has taken hold, starting at the top with Delia giving Webber family free license to do as they wish, who subsequently allow Smith to have zero pressure on him which feeds to the players and terraces. Te atmosphere at Carrow Road this season reflects that.

Disagree re Cantwell. Whilst he has certainly 'got his head right', there is precious little evidence of the quality returning I'm afraid. 

That apart, the rest of your post is spot on albeit withering in it's analysis. Like I said in another thread (the 'Rotherham' one), there is something most definitely wrong at FCR and zero evidence at the moment of anyone grabbing hold of the whole thing with the intent of correcting it. Add in the quite worrying implications of the loan we took out to finance the spending of 12 moths ago and keep this bloated squad intact, the future looks rather bleak I might suggest.