Parma’s State of the Nation

[BigFish 2,257]

35 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

it of course entirely depends on who you have, what they can do and what they can’t do.

Lol @Parma Ham's gone mouldy and thank you for a more questions than answers answer. I must admit I thought of 343 using the roster we have but I suspect the answer lies in better, or at least different players. The flexibility you describe requires intelligence, technical ability, and speed. Not sure we have any of those. In fact it looks pretty close to the Ajax tips model.

[Jim Smith 2,540]

3 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I do not ‘play the result’

24% possession at home is utterly shameful in my view. 

Parma 

I posted that before kick off when I thought he was playing 4-2-3-1.

I agree, not acceptable. 5 at the back was overly negative and we were way too passive til they scored. Even after we equalised he nearly messed it up again by going 4-4-2

 

[Monty13 2,710]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

I have to agree with this Parma. I can see the views of posters stating that at least we have a Plan B and defended deep against a team which plays a possession game. Yet....it's the set up and style that endures over the course of a season. In other words, the underlying structure. Southampton today have a manager who learned his trade with us, has a clear plan for his teams, whereas we don't really look coherent as a 'team'. We have the strengths (your word may be weapons) in Josh and thank goodness for Angus. Yet, you cannot say we look a team in waiting, a team that is emerging, a team that is going to crash the play offs. At home too, there ought not to be such a gulf. Southampton are NOT Manchester City. They are well coached. And they look good enough to at least compete for a top two slot.

What a waste of a season this has been really. Please Mr Knapper, instill your ideas for our team and future quickly.

My view on it was it was a good result considering where we are right now.

It was also a terrible performance.

We are so far removed from the team we were only 3 seasons ago to be almost unrecognisable, it’s a crying shame but it won’t be changed overnight.

[PurpleCanary 6,276]

45 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

@BigFish…

….I think you know that I don’t put a lot of store by paper formations. They are at best misleading. What happens on the pitch can only be identified in such way in occasional fixed fits and starts. 

For the FPA’s out there I would categorise it as the difference between Statutory Accounts and Management Accounts. One is a static Polaroid snapshot of a truth, whilst the other is a rolling live video feed showing much more clearly the movement and flow of the business. 

However I can pass on to you what I was taught by Ajax acolytes of Cruyff who were on sabbatical at Parma when I was there.  

They did indeed start at the very beginning with a paper formation - and it was indeed your 343 - though it was done to counterpoint the prevailing English-way 442. 

If you can see both in your mind, the teacher simply took a pen and connected all the player points on the page. One resulted in boxes, the other triangles. 

The point was not the superiority of the paper system - Brazil 1970 are nominally referred to as playing 442 after all - but the nature of support for the player on the ball, the provision of rotating options, the use of space, the need to create angles at all times, the preeminence of those without the ball. The understanding of how one pass informs the next, the fluid honeycombing of the whole side in relation to decisions made and passing options taken. All must move when one moves. All must therefore understand where to move and why.  

Both attacking and defending. This takes education. 

In my dream Norwich world of a few years ago we took on Juanma Lillo and he revolutionised our world. He is known now of course because Guardiola plucked him away and holds him close to his bosom. For those who do not know what his history is, think of him this way: he is the man who taught the man, who taught the man, who taught the man who taught Farke.

His deep understanding of positional play: of where to be in relation to the positioning of the ball,  the opposition players, your own teammates, is so utterly fundamental, that anyone interested at all in tactics must study it and try to understand it. 

Now let’s bring it into our world of today and try to work out how it fits into what we do do, could do, don’t do.

Your 343 utterly depends on its structure by who plays it and how they play it. What tendencies each player has, how they move, why they move there, why they think they should move there (right or wrong).

The defensive three could be 3 Centre backs (think Gibson), or it could include a dropping CDM (think MacClean), or it equally could include 2 full backs that could play Centre back (think Godfrey).

The middle four could include two full backs (think of the ‘W’ formation beloved by Nottingham Forest and often used in conjunction with the dropping CDM into the back 3 hence W), one central midfielder could be a classic 8 roaming all over (think MacClean again), the other could be a proper Dutch 10 (not what you might think à la Wes, but more like a Litmanen coming from deep finishing high as a support striker, though returning deep into the heart of the game as a midfielder). The middle two could instead be two CDM pivots either side and ahead of a ‘real’ Centre back. But I suppose he could be a  libero… 

The front three might not be a front three at all. The 9 could be a high pivot (creating space for our late arriving  Dutch 10) or could be a rangy 9 occupying both Centre backs, or could be a false 9. If a false 9 the outside prayers in the front three could be more attacking, if you want your 10 to get high more often you might have them going inside out and getting crosses in, if your wide players in your middle four can do this, you might want them as inverted link players, particularly if your 9 is a flyer and your 10 a creator. Or if your wide-of-the-fours were full back like and you deployed two CDM pivots, then you might be able to structurally afford  your non-9 front-of-three players to go in-to-out….

Now draw all of those permutations and note how quickly 343 can be 352, or 451, or 3421, or 442…or….with just a few minor movement of some - or ideally all - players. 

I think in fluid movements in relation to where the ball is, where the danger is, where the opportunity is, where the overloads are - these are always my real goal - where the opposition has over-committed, where the opposition has boxed itself into limited shapes, where the odds are in my favour, where I must act to contain, negate or otherwise amortise the weapons of the opposition, how I can create repeating micro-scenarios that maximize the odds of my weapons being able to engage…

…and it of course entirely depends on who you have, what they can do and what they can’t. 

Parma

 

There is nothing new under the sun, Parma, but you are a touch too young to remember Hugo Meisl and the Viennese Whirl of his Wunderteam of the 1930s!

To be serious, and this I think is connected to the particular point I made about McLean’s debilitating one-footedness when played in midfield, the speedy fluidity  you envisage needs (as Big Fish has just said) technical ability. Not least, even if one has a preferred foot, the ability to take and then immediately give a pass with either.

I see very little football apart from Canaries TV, but was staying in a hotel last week and watched a couple of Premier League games. Of course, the players are better, but what was noticeable was that two-footedness. No-one was having to indulge in time-consuming supertanker turns to keep the move going.

[Don J Demorr 165]

4 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

There is nothing new under the sun, Parma, but you are a touch too young to remember Hugo Meisl and the Viennese Whirl of his Wunderteam of the 1930s!

To be serious, and this I think is connected to the particular point I made about McLean’s debilitating one-footedness when played in midfield, the speedy fluidity  you envisage needs (as Big Fish has just said) technical ability. Not least, even if one has a preferred foot, the ability to take and then immediately give a pass with either.

I see very little football apart from Canaries TV, but was staying in a hotel last week and watched a couple of Premier League games. Of course, the players are better, but what was noticeable was that two-footedness. No-one was having to indulge in time-consuming supertanker turns to keep the move going.

@PurpleCanary Quite so. From a standpoint of my total ignorance of the game it has always been a mystery to me how professional footballers, who have nothing else to do all day except for practising some very fundamental muscle-memory responses to controlling a football, can get away with a highly paid career using one foot. There are not many one-handed concert pianists.

Don

[mrdi 411]

1 minute ago, Don J Demorr said:

There are not many one-handed concert pianists.

Chapeau, Sir. Metaphor of the day. 

[Petriix 3,143]

3 hours ago, sonyc said:

Southampton are NOT Manchester City.

And, let's not forget, we did actually beat Man City at Carrow Road not too long ago by playing some pretty decent football. 

[Barham Blitz 839]

2 hours ago, Petriix said:

And, let's not forget, we did actually beat Man City at Carrow Road not too long ago by playing some pretty decent football. 

I stumbled across some highlights of that match the other day on YouTube.  I loved the bravery of that team and it played some utterly sublime football but my word the margin for error in our playing out from the back (that match especially) was breathtakingly small (if terrifyingly exhilarating) at times. Not in the Duffy-dwelling-on-it-too-long-to-draw-the-press-will-he-hoof-it-in-time? kind of exciting, but the one touch triangles under pressure and at pace kind of exciting.  It was a beautiful few minutes lost in nostalgia and the contrast to what we've see over the past couple of seasons is astounding.

Although given the ultimate outcome of that season, to quote the renowned tactician Woody from Toy Story: 'That wasn't flying.  That was falling with style.' 

I don't necessarily expect City to fly in the modern game, but falling with a bit of style is definitely preferable to just falling.  And remember that for a brief glorious period. Buzz couldn't tell the difference - it really felt to him as if he was flying.

Edited January 1 by Barham Blitz

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,437]

18 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

I was pretty horrified by that. 24% possession at home is shameful.

That was either unnecessary and a dreadful look, or it was necessary and our standards and expectations have fallen a frightening distance.

One team looked like a modern footballing side and it wasn’t us. I very, very much doubt that Knapper enjoyed that. 

I had plenty of flashbacks of Farke, though it was all watching Southampton (pace our very nice goal). The odds and stats and optics were so horribly against us today that the result feels utterly irrelevant to me. Never was such a hollow point achieved. It says far, far too much if that is an accurate summary of the Norwich City status quo. 

There were a number of possibilities Knapper had in front of him upon arrival:

1. He had a pet candidate in his back pocket ready for deployment

2. He had a list of possible candidates that he knew would take the job

3. He had a list of candidates that had expressed quiet interest, though no final commitment

4. He has a database of interesting options some of which he knows well enough to chat with

5. He has a database of options interesting to him and will explore them at the right moment 

As the @Don J Demorr says, it would have been daft - and rather unprofessional - to fire any of his guns quickly. Wagner performing abysmally might have forced his hand, though thankfully - and as multiple posters have pointed out it is thankfully - Wagner did well enough to stay execution and allow for good internal due diligence. 

Don’s ‘can’t’ Point is interesting. Attanasio did say at AGM time that he can’t understand multiple firings of Head Coaches. I suspect he likes more control over controllable events to be held higher up the chain - somewhere pretty near his chequebook I would imagine. 

Wagner is definitely playing his hand quite hard. That was a damning ‘my team aren’t good enough’ message upstairs. I suppose he can point to the neat counter goal, though goodness me watching Farkeball played against us as we run around like pigeons is almost too much for me. As a coach they are not fingerprints I would be proud of. 

As a Sporting Director I’m afraid I wouldn’t stand for it. 

Parma 

Chris Sutton: Saints approach is not the City I know and should not be accepted

Chris Sutton|2 Jan 2024, 13:07

Norwich City’s approach in their 1-1 draw with Southampton shows just how far the club have fallen in recent times. 

I understand managers tweaking their set-ups and adapting to opponents, but playing at home and having just 25 percent of possession, I cannot ever remember anything like it. 

They are not playing Manchester City or Barcelona – they are playing Southampton in the Championship.  

You cannot show that lack of ambition at home in the Championship as Norwich manager. Especially considering the type of coach everyone thought David Wagner was – front foot, high pressing and plenty of energy.  

Yes, they’ve been on a good run, and Russell Martin has done an excellent job. But what on earth is going on?  

Playing that way and showing that lack of ambition is a no from me. People might say it’s clever and that the ends justified the means – but it’s Southampton. If they are retreating from them, they may as well wave the white flag if they get to the play-offs.  

That doesn’t mean you have to be gun-ho – you can play three or five at the back and still want to press, or attack. There are no patterns of play or plans. It was a hope that one of their attacking players would produce something, thankfully, Josh Sargent delivered.  

If I’m a Norwich City season ticket holder and I’ve watched the last two attempts in the Premier League and now I’m watching the team show no desire to attack a Championship team at home – I am wondering whether I’m going to renew my season ticket.  

The club was good to me. I have a strong attachment to it, but I’ve never known anything like this. It shocked me to hear reports from Carrow Road and see the joyous nature of Wagner at getting a point. That says to me how far the club has gone back. They need to address that.  

If Norwich hope to get back in the Premier League, and I don’t believe that is possible, is that how they’re going to set up? It’s not part of the ethos of the club I was brought up in.  

I played in the old First Division and the Premier League for Norwich, I can remember taking some beatings but never setting up at home to not carry a threat. It is not what the club is about.  

This is the club of Ken Brown, Dave Stringer, Mike Walker, Paul Lambert and Daniel Farke – attacking football has been woven into its very fabric. Shutting up shop shouldn’t be in any Norwich managers’ make-up.  

Is this how Norwich are going to go forwards? Having 25 percent of possession, showing no real intent and being in retreat against another Championship side isn’t going to win fans back. Someone needs to wake up, smell the coffee and realise that.  

It cannot be the future, and it shouldn’t be the present. Supporters want to see hope. Supporters want to see an expansive brand of football at home. That is not unreasonable. 

Norwich City supporters have struggled for entertainment at Carrow Road this season. (Image: Paul Chesterton/Focus Images Ltd)

Luton have carried a greater threat against Arsenal and Manchester City in the Premier League than Norwich did against Southampton in the Championship. That’s embarrassing, I’m afraid. 

Maybe I’m wrong or away with the fairies, but I’ve always associated Norwich with a team that tries to play positive, attacking football, that tries to develop young talent and wants to go toe to toe with anybody. Where has that club gone? 

I understand it’s not been easy for Wagner. Norwich have been poor, they’ve struggled, but there is no excuse for parking the bus at home and then celebrating the point in the Championship. That is a no-no.  

What does it show? In the future, any half-decent team that comes to Carrow Road is going to be met with Norwich parking the bus. Are fans really willing to accept that? I don’t think they are.  

What about next season when they’re still in the Championship – who are they going to have a go against?  

I saw similar at Ipswich. We can talk about 14 years unbeaten. But had Jon Rowe not been absolutely ruthless, they would have been beaten comfortably and should have been. They are not reliant on patterns of play but on moments. We have to see a plan and a clear way forward.  

Wagner came in, and the circumstances were difficult, but there was an expectation about the brand of football he was bringing in. How far away is he and are Norwich from that right now?  

It feels like he is doubting himself and has gone away from the type of manager he once was. He’s abandoned his principles.   

It is not unreasonable to expect that Norwich can compete in the Championship against any team. They have one of the biggest budgets in the division; they have spent serious money, relative to Norwich, on Josh Sargent and Gabriel Sara and big wages on others like Ashley Barnes and Shane Duffy.  

They are underperforming. When you start to put up the white flag against any Championship team, that is a terrible message to send. When does it stop? 12 teams are above Norwich at the moment – should they deploy this approach against all of them?  

They are acting like a side that has been playing Championship football for five years. They got relegated 18 months ago. They are still in possession of parachute payments. It is not acceptable.  

Ben Knapper is the man who holds the power at Carrow Road.  (Image: Paul Chesterton/Focus Images Ltd)

Monday documented it. There was one coach who had endured a tough spell, stuck to his principles, and is reaping the rewards of it, and another who has lost all sense of his coaching identity. 

Ben Knapper should have made his mark when he came in and made the change. He wanted to let it breathe and assess the situation – I understand his thought process, I don’t agree with it, but I get it.  

What was he thinking yesterday watching that? He has a decision to make. Norwich cannot go on like this. It’s about the bigger message now.  

What is keeping Wagner in a job is that they are five points off the play-offs. You have to look beyond that.  

This was a performance and approach that has shows how far Norwich City have fallen. It cannot go on. So who is going to do something about it?

—————————

Many, many ex-players feel this and are appalled. 

Ex-players and coaches are generally very defensive and tolerant of the clubs they love, though equally they feel when boundaries are crossed. 

If I didn’t know better it almost felt like a two-fingered goodbye from Wagner. 

I quite warm to him in a lot of ways, but this is entirely unacceptable. 

Parma 

[king canary 8,644]

I think re Attanasio's point about not firing coaches, it is important to remember the context of where he comes from.

• In American sports in-season firings are the exception, not the norm.
• The nature of American sports means if a team is performing badly you'll likely let it ride to the end of the season as relegation as not a concern. 
• Head Coaches almost never move from one team to another as you have to give up considerable assets in terms of picks to make it happen. Very few Head Coaches are both considered available and worth this outlay.
• There are very strict windows on when you can interview potential new head coaches and who you can interview. 
• This all means that an in season firing only happens if a team are completely sick of the current head coach and they are always replaced by an interim, usually from inside the organisation
• There is also a sense that Head Coaches should be long term appointments so going 'one and done' with a coach is seen as a huge failure for the people hiring him and reflects very badly on the organisation. 

This culture doesn't exist here so it may be that he doesn't like the idea of it but may have to get used to it.

[PurpleCanary 6,276]

3 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Chris Sutton: Saints approach is not the City I know and should not be accepted

Chris Sutton|2 Jan 2024, 13:07

Norwich City’s approach in their 1-1 draw with Southampton shows just how far the club have fallen in recent times. 

 

 

Ben Knapper should have made his mark when he came in and made the change. He wanted to let it breathe and assess the situation – I understand his thought process, I don’t agree with it, but I get it.

What was he thinking yesterday watching that? He has a decision to make. Norwich cannot go on like this. It’s about the bigger message now.  

 

I think that is a touch unfair to Knapper. I predicted we would have a new coach by this month, but then we started winnings some matches, and this is the biggest decision of his career in football. That said, I cannot believe he will have been anything but appalled by yesterday, and sooner or later will act accordingly.

I cannot say how tactically Knapper will want us to play, but equally I think I can say that he won’t envisage us going into games with such a defeatist mindset.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Barham Blitz 839]

32 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

They are not reliant on patterns of play but on moments. We have to see a plan and a clear way forward.  

This sums up my feelings towards Wagner's approach in general.  Gearing the entire team up to essentially rely on overloads created pretty much solely by winning the ball back high up the pitch with little else to offer creatively and no sense of what to do defensively if this doesn't work is just not sustainable.

[Soldier on 273]

19 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I think that is a touch unfair to Knapper. I predicted we would have a new coach by this month, but then we started winnings some matches, and this is the biggest decision of his career in football. That said, I cannot believe he will have been anything but appalled by yesterday, and sooner or later will act accordingly.

I cannot say how tactically Knapper will want us to play, but equally I think I can say that he won’t envisage us going into games with such a defeatist mindset.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, PurpleCanary said:

I think that is a touch unfair to Knapper. I predicted we would have a new coach by this month, but then we started winnings some matches, and this is the biggest decision of his career in football. That said, I cannot believe he will have been anything but appalled by yesterday, and sooner or later will act accordingly.

I cannot say how tactically Knapper will want us to play, but equally I think I can say that he won’t envisage us going into games with such a defeatist mindset.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Really not sure what he is waiting for ? It is very evident Wagner can’t deliver Knapper’s favoured playing style, 

The lack of comms also not helping knapper as he should be aware only a minority of Norwich fans attend the AGM. Where is his messaging for those that didn’t ??

[king canary 8,644]

40 minutes ago, Soldier on said:

 

Really not sure what he is waiting for ? It is very evident Wagner can’t deliver Knapper’s favoured playing style, 

The lack of comms also not helping knapper as he should be aware only a minority of Norwich fans attend the AGM. Where is his messaging for those that didn’t ??

I think we need to get used to the fact he's not going to be as media facing as Webber was. Personally I think this is a good think and the norm amongst most Sporting Directors. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,437]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I think that is a touch unfair to Knapper. I predicted we would have a new coach by this month, but then we started winnings some matches, and this is the biggest decision of his career in football. That said, I cannot believe he will have been anything but appalled by yesterday, and sooner or later will act accordingly.

I cannot say how tactically Knapper will want us to play, but equally I think I can say that he won’t envisage us going into games with such a defeatist mindset.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agreed entirely.

Parma 

Edited January 2 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[king canary 8,644]

1 hour ago, PurpleCanary said:

I cannot say how tactically Knapper will want us to play, but equally I think I can say that he won’t envisage us going into games with such a defeatist mindset.

I'd absolutely love to see an SD come in and lay out this being his preferred style (not at Norwich obviously) just to see the reactions.

Every young SD comes in wanting to play progressive, attacking football. It would be hilarious to see someone come in and say 'my philosophy is 10 men behind the ball, central defenders who can't pass water let alone a football and the biggest striker you can find to win headers. I've already called Tony Pulis and offered a 10 year contract. If you want to see passes shorter than 40 yards and your team to have more than 30% possession **** off elsewhere. Bosh.'

[repman 738]

13 minutes ago, king canary said:

I'd absolutely love to see an SD come in and lay out this being his preferred style (not at Norwich obviously) just to see the reactions.

Every young SD comes in wanting to play progressive, attacking football. It would be hilarious to see someone come in and say 'my philosophy is 10 men behind the ball, central defenders who can't pass water let alone a football and the biggest striker you can find to win headers. I've already called Tony Pulis and offered a 10 year contract. If you want to see passes shorter than 40 yards and your team to have more than 30% possession **** off elsewhere. Bosh.'

In general I'm not sure I think a SD should have a preferred 'style' of play. I guess this is more from an aesthetic perspective than a effectiveness one. If Knapper is a data led man as has been hinted then I'm sure he will be focused on the numbers as opposed to how pleasing it is on the eye.

Obviously what we've seen under Wagner recently is the worst of both worlds, both bad to watch and poor underlying numbers. I think it's also pretty clear that if you want to succeed in this division the best way of playing is something resembling the progressive football you mention. In the PL it's a different equation, a successful season for us there would be winning 1/3 of the games we do at this level.

I'm sure the style of play he set out is what he'd like, but I can't help wonder if he was pretty much told to say something along those lines to try to placate the fans. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,437]

16 hours ago, repman said:

In general I'm not sure I think a SD should have a preferred 'style' of play. I guess this is more from an aesthetic perspective than a effectiveness one. If Knapper is a data led man as has been hinted then I'm sure he will be focused on the numbers as opposed to how pleasing it is on the eye.

Obviously what we've seen under Wagner recently is the worst of both worlds, both bad to watch and poor underlying numbers. I think it's also pretty clear that if you want to succeed in this division the best way of playing is something resembling the progressive football you mention. In the PL it's a different equation, a successful season for us there would be winning 1/3 of the games we do at this level.

I'm sure the style of play he set out is what he'd like, but I can't help wonder if he was pretty much told to say something along those lines to try to placate the fans. 

Indeed. For many, many boring years I have stated in Tactics Masterclasses that the football to get to the Premier is rarely what keeps you there.

Having said that, if you are poor, I would suggest rolling the dice on momentum and trying to buy one weapon or two* upon promotion. 

The overriding evidence simply points to needing better players than we have previously been able to afford or attract. 

This means that playing some kind of perceived Prem Lite in the Championship is doubly flawed. 

Parma 

Edited January 3 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy
*…even flawed, borrowed, temporary, temporarily expensive all gladly accepted (at any compromise elsewhere)

[Unthink road 152]

3 hours ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Chris Sutton: Saints approach is not the City I know and should not be accepted

Chris Sutton|2 Jan 2024, 13:07

Norwich City’s approach in their 1-1 draw with Southampton shows just how far the club have fallen in recent times. 

I understand managers tweaking their set-ups and adapting to opponents, but playing at home and having just 25 percent of possession, I cannot ever remember anything like it. 

They are not playing Manchester City or Barcelona – they are playing Southampton in the Championship.  

You cannot show that lack of ambition at home in the Championship as Norwich manager. Especially considering the type of coach everyone thought David Wagner was – front foot, high pressing and plenty of energy.  

Yes, they’ve been on a good run, and Russell Martin has done an excellent job. But what on earth is going on?  

Playing that way and showing that lack of ambition is a no from me. People might say it’s clever and that the ends justified the means – but it’s Southampton. If they are retreating from them, they may as well wave the white flag if they get to the play-offs.  

That doesn’t mean you have to be gun-ho – you can play three or five at the back and still want to press, or attack. There are no patterns of play or plans. It was a hope that one of their attacking players would produce something, thankfully, Josh Sargent delivered.  

If I’m a Norwich City season ticket holder and I’ve watched the last two attempts in the Premier League and now I’m watching the team show no desire to attack a Championship team at home – I am wondering whether I’m going to renew my season ticket.  

The club was good to me. I have a strong attachment to it, but I’ve never known anything like this. It shocked me to hear reports from Carrow Road and see the joyous nature of Wagner at getting a point. That says to me how far the club has gone back. They need to address that.  

If Norwich hope to get back in the Premier League, and I don’t believe that is possible, is that how they’re going to set up? It’s not part of the ethos of the club I was brought up in.  

I played in the old First Division and the Premier League for Norwich, I can remember taking some beatings but never setting up at home to not carry a threat. It is not what the club is about.  

This is the club of Ken Brown, Dave Stringer, Mike Walker, Paul Lambert and Daniel Farke – attacking football has been woven into its very fabric. Shutting up shop shouldn’t be in any Norwich managers’ make-up.  

Is this how Norwich are going to go forwards? Having 25 percent of possession, showing no real intent and being in retreat against another Championship side isn’t going to win fans back. Someone needs to wake up, smell the coffee and realise that.  

It cannot be the future, and it shouldn’t be the present. Supporters want to see hope. Supporters want to see an expansive brand of football at home. That is not unreasonable. 

Norwich City supporters have struggled for entertainment at Carrow Road this season. (Image: Paul Chesterton/Focus Images Ltd)

Luton have carried a greater threat against Arsenal and Manchester City in the Premier League than Norwich did against Southampton in the Championship. That’s embarrassing, I’m afraid. 

Maybe I’m wrong or away with the fairies, but I’ve always associated Norwich with a team that tries to play positive, attacking football, that tries to develop young talent and wants to go toe to toe with anybody. Where has that club gone? 

I understand it’s not been easy for Wagner. Norwich have been poor, they’ve struggled, but there is no excuse for parking the bus at home and then celebrating the point in the Championship. That is a no-no.  

What does it show? In the future, any half-decent team that comes to Carrow Road is going to be met with Norwich parking the bus. Are fans really willing to accept that? I don’t think they are.  

What about next season when they’re still in the Championship – who are they going to have a go against?  

I saw similar at Ipswich. We can talk about 14 years unbeaten. But had Jon Rowe not been absolutely ruthless, they would have been beaten comfortably and should have been. They are not reliant on patterns of play but on moments. We have to see a plan and a clear way forward.  

Wagner came in, and the circumstances were difficult, but there was an expectation about the brand of football he was bringing in. How far away is he and are Norwich from that right now?  

It feels like he is doubting himself and has gone away from the type of manager he once was. He’s abandoned his principles.   

It is not unreasonable to expect that Norwich can compete in the Championship against any team. They have one of the biggest budgets in the division; they have spent serious money, relative to Norwich, on Josh Sargent and Gabriel Sara and big wages on others like Ashley Barnes and Shane Duffy.  

They are underperforming. When you start to put up the white flag against any Championship team, that is a terrible message to send. When does it stop? 12 teams are above Norwich at the moment – should they deploy this approach against all of them?  

They are acting like a side that has been playing Championship football for five years. They got relegated 18 months ago. They are still in possession of parachute payments. It is not acceptable.  

Ben Knapper is the man who holds the power at Carrow Road.  (Image: Paul Chesterton/Focus Images Ltd)

Monday documented it. There was one coach who had endured a tough spell, stuck to his principles, and is reaping the rewards of it, and another who has lost all sense of his coaching identity. 

Ben Knapper should have made his mark when he came in and made the change. He wanted to let it breathe and assess the situation – I understand his thought process, I don’t agree with it, but I get it.  

What was he thinking yesterday watching that? He has a decision to make. Norwich cannot go on like this. It’s about the bigger message now.  

What is keeping Wagner in a job is that they are five points off the play-offs. You have to look beyond that.  

This was a performance and approach that has shows how far Norwich City have fallen. It cannot go on. So who is going to do something about it?

—————————

Many, many ex-players feel this and are appalled. 

Ex-players and coaches are generally very defensive and tolerant of the clubs they love, though equally they feel when boundaries are crossed. 

If I didn’t know better it almost felt like a two-fingered goodbye from Wagner. 

I quite warm to him in a lot of ways, but this is entirely unacceptable. 

Parma 

Totally agree. It felt like Wagner knows he's leaving, but tried to not to lose rather than try to win. His losing runs will stand out more than his winning runs to when applying for future roles. Self preservation I suppose? 

[repman 738]

36 minutes ago, Parma Ham's gone mouldy said:

Indeed. For many, many boring years I have stated in Tactics Masterclasses that the football to get to then premier is rarely what keeps you there.

Having said that, if you are poor, I would suggest rolling the dice on momentum and trying to buy one weapon or two* upon promotion. 

The overriding evidence simply points to needing better players than we have previously been able to afford or attract. 

This means that playing some kind of perceived Prem Lite in the Championship is doubly flawed. 

Parma 

I think certainly in regards to Farke's two promotion seasons that the method you choose would've suited us best. Both the squad and Farke's strengths were in the attacking phase of the game, the clearest path to success in the PL in those years would've been to double down on that.

I'm not sure whether it was a misunderstanding of those strengths, I remember people being more confident of our defensive prowess after 20/21 due to the fact we'd conceded 21 less goals than in 18/19. The underlying numbers suggest that little had changed however.

In an ideal world the combination you'd have would be good attack, good defence. Under Farke in the championship we were more good attack, bad defence. The focus since our last relegation has supposedly on good defence, with the emphasis being put on pressing. As you say that combination is a flawed one at this level.

 

[Robert N. LiM 5,944]

2 hours ago, repman said:

The focus since our last relegation has supposedly on good defence, with the emphasis being put on pressing.

Supposedly doing a lot of work in that sentence!

[PurpleCanary 6,276]

6 hours ago, PurpleCanary said:

I think that is a touch unfair to Knapper. I predicted we would have a new coach by this month, but then we started winnings some matches, and this is the biggest decision of his career in football. That said, I cannot believe he will have been anything but appalled by yesterday, and sooner or later will act accordingly.

I cannot say how tactically Knapper will want us to play, but equally I think I can say that he won’t envisage us going into games with such a defeatist mindset.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just to add,  prompted by Birmingham, not for the first time, sacking a decent manager and replacing them with a ‘name’ without a track record, Norwich City, under S&J, or before that going back to the Watling era, have never made the mistake of.choosing that kind of celebrity. And I don’t expect Knapper to either.

[PurpleCanary 6,276]

7 minutes ago, Robert N. LiM said:

Supposedly doing a lot of work in that sentence!

Collapsing under the weight…

[Petriix 3,143]

In my opinion the 'low block/fast counter' is the superior strategy in the current football paradigm. It was especially effective against Southampton due to the incredibly high line they played and allowed us to almost entirely contain them while enjoying the best chances of the match. With competent officiating we likely would have been the deserved winners. 

This was exactly how Leicester won the Premier League and how many teams have beaten us in recent times. The possession stats are obviously pretty unusual but that's not just down to how we played; Southampton were happy to pass the ball sideways and backwards while hoping for us to make positional errors which ultimately never came until their goal.

It's not pretty but it has the potential to be pretty effective, playing right into the strengths of Sargent, Idah and Rowe. If we're moving on from Farke then this is definitely a viable option. People are being far too emotive about what is actually a reasonably high-percentage change.

Obviously I would have preferred to keep our silky skills and play the passing game, but I've been told ad infinitum that it was a losing strategy...

I'm only half joking. I genuinely think that we could swap one of the defenders for a proper CDM and have a very effective system capable of rapidly passing through teams or just going long from time to time. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,437]

Well done @Petriix…that is indeed the counter-argument - and the goal we scored is certainly exhibit A in that defence.

My daughter lovingly likes to refer to me as ‘ a pound shop Dalai Lama’ (I’m pretty sure it’s a fabulous compliment….)…

…so namaste for providing balance. 

I certainly also think that my initial evaluation could look emotive, it is certainly more didactic than my usual approach.

That is however why I subsequently included the even more damning words of Chris Sutton.

Players know how certain things in football make them feel. How they feel about themselves. Their team, their careers, the direction of travel of their world and the club they are (currently) with. 

For all my analysis, strategic evaluations and patterns of play, ignore this psychological virus at your peril. 

Parma 

 

Edited January 2 by Parma Ham's gone mouldy

[Monty13 2,710]

54 minutes ago, Petriix said:

In my opinion the 'low block/fast counter' is the superior strategy in the current football paradigm. It was especially effective against Southampton due to the incredibly high line they played and allowed us to almost entirely contain them while enjoying the best chances of the match. With competent officiating we likely would have been the deserved winners. 

This was exactly how Leicester won the Premier League and how many teams have beaten us in recent times. The possession stats are obviously pretty unusual but that's not just down to how we played; Southampton were happy to pass the ball sideways and backwards while hoping for us to make positional errors which ultimately never came until their goal.

It's not pretty but it has the potential to be pretty effective, playing right into the strengths of Sargent, Idah and Rowe. If we're moving on from Farke then this is definitely a viable option. People are being far too emotive about what is actually a reasonably high-percentage change.

Obviously I would have preferred to keep our silky skills and play the passing game, but I've been told ad infinitum that it was a losing strategy...

I'm only half joking. I genuinely think that we could swap one of the defenders for a proper CDM and have a very effective system capable of rapidly passing through teams or just going long from time to time. 

Leicester are the anomaly not the future surely?

Nothing can take away that achievement but it didn’t half rely upon a fair bit of luck. It’s also not been replicated.

If that is the superior strategy where are the superior teams playing it?

For all the teams that did do well against a Farke team playing it…we still won two Championships.

You might be right that it could have some success but I don’t think it can be called the superior strategy on current evidence.

[Petriix 3,143]

53 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

If that is the superior strategy where are the superior teams playing it?

None of the top teams have creative enough managers to realise the genius of telling their world-class players not to attack at all until their opponents have over committed. They're all too scared of Chris Sutton's wrath. Wagner likely doesn't realise the true wonder of what he's stumbled across having pulled the formation out of a hat like his team selections. 

[Barham Blitz 839]

3 hours ago, repman said:

I think certainly in regards to Farke's two promotion seasons that the method you choose would've suited us best. Both the squad and Farke's strengths were in the attacking phase of the game, the clearest path to success in the PL in those years would've been to double down on that.

I'm not sure whether it was a misunderstanding of those strengths, I remember people being more confident of our defensive prowess after 20/21 due to the fact we'd conceded 21 less goals than in 18/19. The underlying numbers suggest that little had changed however.

In an ideal world the combination you'd have would be good attack, good defence. Under Farke in the championship we were more good attack, bad defence. The focus since our last relegation has supposedly on good defence, with the emphasis being put on pressing. As you say that combination is a flawed one at this level.

 

I take your point, but wasn't Farke's defensive strategy largely based on the fact that if the opposition didn't have the ball they were unlikely to score ?  Or would at least be too knackered after running around after it ? 

I also think that the optimism from 20/21 was more to do with the game management rather than the defence necessarily being any better.  It just looked a bit less edge of the seat we'll score more than you and a bit more control and seeing out the game after we go ahead.  Essentially Skipp's positional discipline, nose for trouble and simple passing  instead of another skill-gnome flicking the ball riskily around corners.  Of course plan A went out of the window when it became clear that Skipp and Emi weren't going to be there, so we ended up with that odd collection of Wingers who didn't want to be here and however you'd care to describe what passed for a midfield that year.  For the record, although he would have been a significant improvement on what we ended up with, Skipp would not have made as much of a difference as would have been necessary even if we had managed to keep him.

I would almost absolutely agree that recent history would suggest that possession football is the way to get out of the division. I don't necessarily agree that this need to be completely ditched in the Premier League, but it does need to be tempered with a quicker transition and greater defensive solidity. 

History would also tend to suggest that teams with a Holt / Lambert / Toney style striker,  physical but technical enough to hang on to the ball and allow the midfield to catch up generally have the best chance of staying up.  For all my and everybody else's justifiable criticisms of our last top flight tactics and recruitment, there was a grain of sanity there.  A midfield three with a running 8, and two vertical passers starting in a low block with two quick wide players is one way of approaching it.  The issue was one of recruitment.  At the risk of summoning the Dark Knight, neither Normann PLM or Gilmour were either progressive or physical enough to perform the roles required of them. 

More importantly, the wide players can't be traditional chalk on the boots attackers, but also need to do a shift defensively whilst being mobile enough to get up and beyond the striker.  I think we can all agree that isn't what we got or indeed could expect with Tzolis and Rashica, whatever virtues they may bring to their current teams.  And if you are going to play this system, then for all his GOAT status you don't have Pukki leading the line - you have your Holt or your Lambert or your Toney to hang on to it for a precious few seconds. I suspect this is why we signed Sargent and why we threw the five year contract at Idah.  But Sargent put his boots on the wrong feet for the first half of that season and ended up filling in for wide players unable to do the defensive yards and Idah's lack of progression basically ensured Pukki remained undroppable despite being absolutely the wrong player for the system that Webber (I'll mischievously leave it there) was trying to deploy.

I also suspect that the underlying principles of this approach is the sort of basis that Wagner has been somewhat ham-fistedly working towards, albeit with a lurch towards a Klopp-lite gegenpress as the philosophical bedrock at the expense of the faster more vertical transitioning but still largely possession based football which is where I would probably look to go.

Again, as oft stayed, even at this level the recruitment hasn't been great (with the possible exceptions of Sainz and Stacey) and I've outlined previously my issues with the structural flaws in his approach which I actually think would be enormously magnified a division above. In the Farke era (last season aside) we recruited players with specific skillsets to fit a specific system.  Some worked better than others - that's the reality of rummaging in the bargain basement - but there was for better or worse a plan.  Since then we have signed a lot of players fundamentally unsuited to what we are trying to do, just as we did in the Premier League in that second season.

I guess that my overall point is that it would be possible to play a possession based game in the Championship and then tweak it slightly to a lower block fast transitioning but overall more pragmatic system in the Premiership with the judicious addition of a few players selected expressly for the roles required of them as outlined above.

Or rather it would have been had we not thrown all  of the Emi cash at a couple of wide players with potential resale value but none of the required attributes, and loaned a callow if potentially gifted teenager with no defensive instincts and an insta ready mercenary made of glass.  But I've been on my soapbox often enough on that point ...

This is the least of what I expect Knapper to be rationalising and driving over the coming seasons.  A clarity as to what is required of the roles at each level and a recruitment to make it happen, hopefully without massive clear outs on promotion or relegation or changes of head coach.

 

[Monty13 2,710]

28 minutes ago, Petriix said:

None of the top teams have creative enough managers to realise the genius of telling their world-class players not to attack at all until their opponents have over committed. They're all too scared of Chris Sutton's wrath. Wagner likely doesn't realise the true wonder of what he's stumbled across having pulled the formation out of a hat like his team selections. 

Now I’m with you lol, sorry it’s been a long day!

Edited January 2 by Monty13

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,437]

Excellent @Barham Blitz

Parma