Not just football that’s corrupt

[Crafty Canary 508]

2 hours ago, pete said:

Mercedes to appeal to CAS, this will be overturned, FIA rules not followed.  Cheating by Masi and the stewards, heads will roll.  Mercedes could instigate legal action that could bankrupt F1.

Contrived finish will be overturned eventually.  Mercedes need to appeal to sport by Thursday when max crowned.  CAS appeal will follow.  Sponsors cannot be happy with the sport being hijacked by corrupt officials.

Apparently there s a rule that allows the race director to override the rule that all lapped cars must be unlapped as well as other rules  they deem fit. 
Fairest action would have been to red flag the race so that all cars could have tyre changes and the race restarted from the grid in the order they were when the race was stopped. Hamilton would then have won almost certainly but I can’t help feel that that was not what the FIA wanted.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

17 minutes ago, Crafty Canary said:

Apparently there s a rule that allows the race director to override the rule that all lapped cars must be unlapped as well as other rules  they deem fit. 
Fairest action would have been to red flag the race so that all cars could have tyre changes and the race restarted from the grid in the order they were when the race was stopped. Hamilton would then have won almost certainly but I can’t help feel that that was not what the FIA wanted.

There isn’t. They are talking bo***cks.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

8 hours ago, KiwiScot said:

Basically they wanted to race and ignored the rules to have that racing. Safety cars, team mates blocking the opponent and races decided by pit strategy are all part of the sport. Hamiltons 11 second lead doesn't matter in that context because in the sport things like that happen. Just as easily as with 5 laps to go any of the drivers could have a mechanical failure or lose control at a corner.

But I agree with people that it's not right, but the sport for decades now has been about making it more exciting as people complain it's boring so I'm going with it was the right call. The only thing that is problematic is the unlikelihood(but not impossible) of a sudden race restart in Merecedes mind affecting their decision to not pit Hamilton for new tyres.

Both team principles are on the radio to Masi trying to put their case across. That should be stamped out.

If they wanted to race the final lap they could have but they would have had to not let the overlapped cars through. That would have been fine and in accordance with the rules and indeed was what the race director said was happening originally. Max would still have benefitted from the safety car but he would have been what 3-4 seconds behind and with 5 cars to get past (which cost Hamilton a couple of seconds) so it’s doubtful he could have got close enough to challenge in one lap. 

[Hand of Theo 25]

1 hour ago, Crafty Canary said:

Apparently there s a rule that allows the race director to override the rule that all lapped cars must be unlapped as well as other rules  they deem fit. 
Fairest action would have been to red flag the race so that all cars could have tyre changes and the race restarted from the grid in the order they were when the race was stopped. Hamilton would then have won almost certainly but I can’t help feel that that was not what the FIA wanted.

A red flag would have been the fairest way.

Michael Masi was asked by the journalists before the race that if there was a crash at that turn (Turn 14 I believe?!) would there be a red flag, and he said it would be a yellow flag. 

Masi had also received an agreement from all teams prior to the race that they would want to finish the race under green flag conditions. 

Not defending Masi as such, but I imagine those things would have been going through his mind when trying to make the call over how to proceed with finishing the race. 

Those things considered he was damned if he did or didn't make the call. The race resumes with 4 cars between Lewis and Max, Lewis wins, and Red Bull kick up an almighty sh!t storm saying that 'it was unfair that those cars didn't unlap and that cost Max the title' and they appeal the result. 

Either way someone was going to be screwed by the decision, so I guess the FIA decided to do it in the manner that would be the most exciting

[Jim Smith 2,339]

19 minutes ago, Hand of Theo said:

A red flag would have been the fairest way.

Michael Masi was asked by the journalists before the race that if there was a crash at that turn (Turn 14 I believe?!) would there be a red flag, and he said it would be a yellow flag. 

Masi had also received an agreement from all teams prior to the race that they would want to finish the race under green flag conditions. 

Not defending Masi as such, but I imagine those things would have been going through his mind when trying to make the call over how to proceed with finishing the race. 

Those things considered he was damned if he did or didn't make the call. The race resumes with 4 cars between Lewis and Max, Lewis wins, and Red Bull kick up an almighty sh!t storm saying that 'it was unfair that those cars didn't unlap and that cost Max the title' and they appeal the result. 

Either way someone was going to be screwed by the decision, so I guess the FIA decided to do it in the manner that would be the most exciting

But that wouldn’t have been unfair because Lewis had to overtake them and lost time in doing so. It would have been significantly fairer and indeed in line with the rules. They would have had zero grounds for appeal particularly as in the alternative he could have pointed out that unlapping meant the race would have to finish behind the safety car.

the only way he could legitimately finish that race with a final lap whilst racing was to not allow the cars to unlap. Indeed that’s what he said was happening before changing his mind with about 10 seconds notice of the restart. 

[Jim Smith 2,339]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

But that wouldn’t have been unfair because Lewis had to overtake them and lost time in doing so. It would have been significantly fairer and indeed in line with the rules. They would have had zero grounds for appeal particularly as in the alternative he could have pointed out that unlapping meant the race would have to finish behind the safety car.

the only way he could legitimately finish that race with a final lap whilst racing was to not allow the cars to unlap. Indeed that’s what he said was happening before changing his mind with about 10 seconds notice of the restart. 

Only way other than the red flag you refer to I mean. 

[cornish sam 966]

18 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Only way other than the red flag you refer to I mean. 

Bit a red flag in those circumstances would have been outside the regulations as well, there was no safety reason for a red flag, which is what they are used for. Merc had made a tactical decision to not put twice, that is on them, the tyre disparity was of their making. The issue here is that either non of the cars should unlap themselves or all of them should (and that there should be a lap between that happening and the safety car coming in, but that is secondary in my opinion). Problem was he made the decision to let cars unlap themselves too late to actually have that happen and them to be clear enough to not hold up the leaders, hence he only let a few through, which is unprecedented and also against the regulations whilst effectively handing red bull the win

[Hand of Theo 25]

11 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

But that wouldn’t have been unfair because Lewis had to overtake them and lost time in doing so. It would have been significantly fairer and indeed in line with the rules. They would have had zero grounds for appeal particularly as in the alternative he could have pointed out that unlapping meant the race would have to finish behind the safety car.

the only way he could legitimately finish that race with a final lap whilst racing was to not allow the cars to unlap. Indeed that’s what he said was happening before changing his mind with about 10 seconds notice of the restart. 

You're right, it wouldn't have been unfair, but Horner would've said it was regardless and Red Bull would've appealed regardless. And that appeal would've been thrown out just as Mercedes' was. But Red Bull would say under ordinary yellow flag conditions that lapped cars would be allowed to unlap, and if the race was returning to green flag for the last lap then there shouldn't be any cars in between them, and Masi should've ordered all cars to unlap earlier.

It's a shame that over the past few weeks the racing has been a sideshow to the constant sniping between Horner and Wolff, and Red Bull and Mercedes, and controversy from the FIA. It takes away from one of the greatest head-to-head battles there's been between two incredible drivers. Pleased for Max though, he's been the best over the course of the season and fully deserves it

[......and Smith must score. 1,362]

The only question here is why is this not in the non-football section ?

[Hand of Theo 25]

Just now, ......and Smith must score. said:

The only question here is why is this not in the non-football section ?

Don't know why Sorensen can't get a game at CDM. Bet he would've won the Championship if he was in Lewis's Mercedes though

[Justin time 182]

7 minutes ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

The only question here is why is this not in the non-football section ?

Probably because of the word FOOTBALL in the header.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

1 hour ago, Hand of Theo said:

You're right, it wouldn't have been unfair, but Horner would've said it was regardless and Red Bull would've appealed regardless. And that appeal would've been thrown out just as Mercedes' was. But Red Bull would say under ordinary yellow flag conditions that lapped cars would be allowed to unlap, and if the race was returning to green flag for the last lap then there shouldn't be any cars in between them, and Masi should've ordered all cars to unlap earlier.

It's a shame that over the past few weeks the racing has been a sideshow to the constant sniping between Horner and Wolff, and Red Bull and Mercedes, and controversy from the FIA. It takes away from one of the greatest head-to-head battles there's been between two incredible drivers. Pleased for Max though, he's been the best over the course of the season and fully deserves it

But Red Bulls appeal would have been legitimately thrown out. Mercedes’ was fully justified snd should have been allowed.

Max doesn’t deserve it as the legitimate winner of that race deserved the championship and it wasn’t him. 

 

 

 

[Jim Smith 2,339]

1 hour ago, Hand of Theo said:

You're right, it wouldn't have been unfair, but Horner would've said it was regardless and Red Bull would've appealed regardless. And that appeal would've been thrown out just as Mercedes' was. But Red Bull would say under ordinary yellow flag conditions that lapped cars would be allowed to unlap, and if the race was returning to green flag for the last lap then there shouldn't be any cars in between them, and Masi should've ordered all cars to unlap earlier.

It's a shame that over the past few weeks the racing has been a sideshow to the constant sniping between Horner and Wolff, and Red Bull and Mercedes, and controversy from the FIA. It takes away from one of the greatest head-to-head battles there's been between two incredible drivers. Pleased for Max though, he's been the best over the course of the season and fully deserves it

The point is though that if cars are allowed to unlap, the rules are quite clear that the safety car goes off at the end of the following lap. So the race would have been over as that was the last lap.

[Indy 3,322]

5 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The point is though that if cars are allowed to unlap, the rules are quite clear that the safety car goes off at the end of the following lap. So the race would have been over as that was the last lap.

It was also unfair on Sainz and Ferrari as they had new tyres too and rightly should have been involved in the fight to the finish, so those cars too should have been let loose! It’s nothing more than a farce, decided by a single Aussie who got bullied into making a mistake by Horner and Red Bull and will be backed by the FIA as otherwise it would open a big problem. Masi will no doubt quietly move on from his position during the close season and we go again.

Credit to Mercedes and Lewis (who in my opinion has gone up ten fold as a driver and person) for dropping the protest they won’t win, as the FIA will use the up interpretation excuse everytime.

[mastoola 185]

49 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

The point is though that if cars are allowed to unlap, the rules are quite clear that the safety car goes off at the end of the following lap. So the race would have been over as that was the last lap.

Exactly this  Then who would of won?

[Jim Smith 2,339]

39 minutes ago, mastoola said:

Exactly this  Then who would of won?

Hamilton obviously. Rules say if the safety car is still out on the final lap they all have to continue to the line in the same order. 

[Hairy Canary 711]

Surely the overriding point here is how ridiculously ambiguous the rules are. Rules are there so everyone knows how things should operate in certain circumstances and can easily see if they are being upheld fairly or not.

During the race, when the safety car was out, Martin Brundal said that usually the lapped cars are allowed to overtake the race leader so they don’t impede the restart but that was not always the case. Never has it been that some of the lapped cars are allowed to pass and others told to stay back. What a pile of crap. Where is the clear rule we can all see and understand? They have brought the sport into disrepute imo.

[canarydan23 4,060]

8 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

Surely the overriding point here is how ridiculously ambiguous the rules are. Rules are there so everyone knows how things should operate in certain circumstances and can easily see if they are being upheld fairly or not.

During the race, when the safety car was out, Martin Brundal said that usually the lapped cars are allowed to overtake the race leader so they don’t impede the restart but that was not always the case. Never has it been that some of the lapped cars are allowed to pass and others told to stay back. What a pile of crap. Where is the clear rule we can all see and understand? They have brought the sport into disrepute imo.

The rules are clear. Masi chose to ignore them and make something up that contrived a situation that denied the rightful winner their victory.

Why he did that I doubt we'll ever know. But the possible conclusions range from conspiratorial to deeply deplorable. None are satisfactory.

The recent list of F1 World Champions is;

2018: Hamilton

2019: Hamilton 

2020: Hamilton 

2021: Verstappen*

It will always be so.

 

[Jim Smith 2,339]

8 minutes ago, Hairy Canary said:

Surely the overriding point here is how ridiculously ambiguous the rules are. Rules are there so everyone knows how things should operate in certain circumstances and can easily see if they are being upheld fairly or not.

During the race, when the safety car was out, Martin Brundal said that usually the lapped cars are allowed to overtake the race leader so they don’t impede the restart but that was not always the case. Never has it been that some of the lapped cars are allowed to pass and others told to stay back. What a pile of crap. Where is the clear rule we can all see and understand? They have brought the sport into disrepute imo.

But that’s the point. They aren’t ambiguous. They are pretty clear in my view. He had 2 options.

1. Allow the cars to unlap. In which case any lapped cars by the leader had to unlap (not some) and the safety car goes off at the end of the following lap. In practice this was not an option really once it got to the last two laps as the race would be over so no point unlapping.

or

2. don’t let the cars unlap and finish the race over the last lap but with the lapped cars between Max and Lewis. Max would have benefitted from the gap having closed (and new tires) but would not have been as close and would have to have got past the 5 cars so unlikely he would have been able to make up the ground.

Those were the legitimate options under the rules. 

 

 

[canarydan23 4,060]

Just now, Jim Smith said:

Those were the legitimate options under the rules. 

The only legitimate options.

[KiwiScot 1,485]

2 hours ago, ......and Smith must score. said:

The only question here is why is this not in the non-football section ?

Because pete raven is applying for masi's job. I'm also applying because I reckon I've got what it takes to go "**** it just race"

[Hairy Canary 711]

16 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

But that’s the point. They aren’t ambiguous. They are pretty clear in my view. He had 2 options.

1. Allow the cars to unlap. In which case any lapped cars by the leader had to unlap (not some) and the safety car goes off at the end of the following lap. In practice this was not an option really once it got to the last two laps as the race would be over so no point unlapping.

or

2. don’t let the cars unlap and finish the race over the last lap but with the lapped cars between Max and Lewis. Max would have benefitted from the gap having closed (and new tires) but would not have been as close and would have to have got past the 5 cars so unlikely he would have been able to make up the ground.

Those were the legitimate options under the rules. 

 

 

Yes I’m with you, we’re singing from the same hymn sheet but a set of rules shouldn’t give the referee two options. That’s what makes them ambiguous. One set option, it really doesn’t matter which, and there is none of this argument.

The fact that he has opted for a third option, some sort of hybrid of the two you quoted, makes it even more ridiculous. Such a shame one of the best seasons in F1 I can remember should end with such a sour taste.

[Fiery Zac 1,066]

7 hours ago, Hand of Theo said:

Pleased for Max though, he's been the best over the course of the season and fully deserves it

No, can’t agree with that at all.

Exciting yes, reckless yes and lacking in race and championship experience. He also had the best car for the majority of the season and couldn’t get the title won.

The fair winner of that final race would rightly be deserving of the championship…but that simply wasn’t Verstappen, in any sense other than the made up nonsense and controversy the sport now finds itself in.

Mercedes and Hamiltons resurgence in the final races was outstanding and he fully deserved the championship win. Hopefully he will be rightly awarded it and become the undisputed greatest driver in F1 history. Unfortunately I don’t remember pre Senna F1 but arguments about Schumacher are weak imo. Hamilton is the calmest,  cleverest and simply fastest driver I’ve ever seen.

[Jim Smith 2,339]

7 hours ago, Hairy Canary said:

Yes I’m with you, we’re singing from the same hymn sheet but a set of rules shouldn’t give the referee two options. That’s what makes them ambiguous. One set option, it really doesn’t matter which, and there is none of this argument.

The fact that he has opted for a third option, some sort of hybrid of the two you quoted, makes it even more ridiculous. Such a shame one of the best seasons in F1 I can remember should end with such a sour taste.

Yes sorry I agree with that, although in this case actually if the option was option 1 it would have just ended the race so arguably if they wanted to finish “racing” it was option 2 that gave it.

personally I think they need to look at the safety car rule full stop. It penalised the leader too much and they need to find a way to stagger the release of the cars from behind it in order to reflect better the gaps before it came out, whether that means doing it from the pit lane or a rolling start. 

[Indy 3,322]

16 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes sorry I agree with that, although in this case actually if the option was option 1 it would have just ended the race so arguably if they wanted to finish “racing” it was option 2 that gave it.

personally I think they need to look at the safety car rule full stop. It penalised the leader too much and they need to find a way to stagger the release of the cars from behind it in order to reflect better the gaps before it came out, whether that means doing it from the pit lane or a rolling start. 

Indeed with the modern cars and the delta’s they should be able to maintain any gap distances between the cars, there’s no need to treat a full safety car any different to a virtual one! Also unless you have a puncture no tyre changes during either virtual nor full safety car, if you do want to change you are held at station for the duration of a standard average pit stop for each particular track plus ten seconds, thus negating any advantage in pit stops. Easy really as no way should a safety car rest the race for those who had gained through clean racing.

Edited December 14, 2021 by Indy

[Hand of Theo 25]

5 hours ago, Fiery Zac said:

No, can’t agree with that at all.

Exciting yes, reckless yes and lacking in race and championship experience. He also had the best car for the majority of the season and couldn’t get the title won.

The fair winner of that final race would rightly be deserving of the championship…but that simply wasn’t Verstappen, in any sense other than the made up nonsense and controversy the sport now finds itself in.

Mercedes and Hamiltons resurgence in the final races was outstanding and he fully deserved the championship win. Hopefully he will be rightly awarded it and become the undisputed greatest driver in F1 history. Unfortunately I don’t remember pre Senna F1 but arguments about Schumacher are weak imo. Hamilton is the calmest,  cleverest and simply fastest driver I’ve ever seen.

But you can argue that the title shouldn't have come down to the last race anyway as Max should've had it sewn up before then, but for circumstances out of his control. The tyre blow out at Baku when he was way out in front. The Red flag at Imola when Max had lapped Lewis which meant Lewis could unlap himself, repair his car, change his tyres, and come through to finish second. Bottas playing skittles with about 10 cars, including both Red Bulls, at Budapest. Vettel's retrospective disqualification at Budapest because of his low fuel sample meaning Lewis was bumped up a place, and let's not forget Silverstone.

I hate talking about shoulda, woulda and coulda as it's moot and makes me sound like a d!ck, but those are just examples of how the points margin between the two could have been far greater than it was going into the last race, and why for me Max has been the better and most dominant driver over the course of the season even if the points don't necessarily reflect it.

But that's sport and one thing the engineers, and mechanics and strategists can't plan for is the element of lady luck or a controversial call by the officials. It's gone against Max repeatedly throughout the season which has been unfortunate for him, and it's now gone against Lewis which is unfortunate for him. On this occasion though that was one mighty controversial call

[Jim Smith 2,339]

58 minutes ago, Hand of Theo said:

But you can argue that the title shouldn't have come down to the last race anyway as Max should've had it sewn up before then, but for circumstances out of his control. The tyre blow out at Baku when he was way out in front. The Red flag at Imola when Max had lapped Lewis which meant Lewis could unlap himself, repair his car, change his tyres, and come through to finish second. Bottas playing skittles with about 10 cars, including both Red Bulls, at Budapest. Vettel's retrospective disqualification at Budapest because of his low fuel sample meaning Lewis was bumped up a place, and let's not forget Silverstone.

I hate talking about shoulda, woulda and coulda as it's moot and makes me sound like a d!ck, but those are just examples of how the points margin between the two could have been far greater than it was going into the last race, and why for me Max has been the better and most dominant driver over the course of the season even if the points don't necessarily reflect it.

But that's sport and one thing the engineers, and mechanics and strategists can't plan for is the element of lady luck or a controversial call by the officials. It's gone against Max repeatedly throughout the season which has been unfortunate for him, and it's now gone against Lewis which is unfortunate for him. On this occasion though that was one mighty controversial call

There is a difference though between luck and the officials (possibly ineptly or possibly deliberately to create a spectacle) breaking the rules. All the above examples were “within the rules” - this clearly involved a breach of the rules by the officials.

I get your point which is that you feel Verstappen has been the better driver but he’s also been handed points through some strange officials decisions too.

this by the way is what Masi said about unlapping after the Grand Prix in Germany last year when criticised for the safety car being out so long.

 

 

[Hand of Theo 25]

19 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

There is a difference though between luck and the officials (possibly ineptly or possibly deliberately to create a spectacle) breaking the rules. All the above examples were “within the rules” - this clearly involved a breach of the rules by the officials.

I get your point which is that you feel Verstappen has been the better driver but he’s also been handed points through some strange officials decisions too.

this by the way is what Masi said about unlapping after the Grand Prix in Germany last year when criticised for the safety car being out so long.

 

 

The rulebook is a mess. Red Bull played the 'Article 48.13 overrides 48.12' card in which case gives the Race Director ultimate discretion to pull the safety car in and restart the race the following lap. That in itself deems all of the other safety regulations around yellow flags and safety cars completely worthless. I do have some sympathy for Masi because with the ambiguity, contradictions, and allowance for discretion in the rules he's always going to take a caining from someone based on his split-second decision making. 

Let's not forget that Toto was on the radio pressurising him earlier in the race to not deploy a safety car, much in the same way Horner was doing it at the end to remove the lapped cars. They both got their way and both are as bad as each other. Deplorable sportsmanship. Like a footballer asking a ref to book someone else, it's not on and the officials shouldn't be pressurised.

Some of the decisions have been mind-blowing though, like the Spa farce (which worked out in Verstappen's favour I must say). If the FIA aren't going to tear up the rules and regulations handbook after this season and start again then Masi needs more support to make these decisions on the fly. He's only human after all 

[Jim Smith 2,339]

14 minutes ago, Hand of Theo said:

The rulebook is a mess. Red Bull played the 'Article 48.13 overrides 48.12' card in which case gives the Race Director ultimate discretion to pull the safety car in and restart the race the following lap. That in itself deems all of the other safety regulations around yellow flags and safety cars completely worthless. I do have some sympathy for Masi because with the ambiguity, contradictions, and allowance for discretion in the rules he's always going to take a caining from someone based on his split-second decision making. 

Let's not forget that Toto was on the radio pressurising him earlier in the race to not deploy a safety car, much in the same way Horner was doing it at the end to remove the lapped cars. They both got their way and both are as bad as each other. Deplorable sportsmanship. Like a footballer asking a ref to book someone else, it's not on and the officials shouldn't be pressurised.

Some of the decisions have been mind-blowing though, like the Spa farce (which worked out in Verstappen's favour I must say). If the FIA aren't going to tear up the rules and regulations handbook after this season and start again then Masi needs more support to make these decisions on the fly. He's only human after all 

Yes it’s a mess but I don’t share the view the rule is ambiguous. It will be interesting to see if Mercedes appeal. I suspect they are having second thoughts over whether it’s worth it politically/PR wise and may reach some sort of agreement with the FIA over future reform but equally ii have Iittle doubt that a court will hold that the rules were not applied correctly and that the FIA appeal decision was wrong. 

[Hand of Theo 25]

10 minutes ago, Jim Smith said:

Yes it’s a mess but I don’t share the view the rule is ambiguous. It will be interesting to see if Mercedes appeal. I suspect they are having second thoughts over whether it’s worth it politically/PR wise and may reach some sort of agreement with the FIA over future reform but equally ii have Iittle doubt that a court will hold that the rules were not applied correctly and that the FIA appeal decision was wrong. 

Yeah I agree. I think Mercedes know that whether they have a legitimate case or not the outcome of the Championship isn't going to be overturned, so is it worth going through the motions. Like you say though they may agree to drop the case on the basis that certain FIA reforms are considered.

And Lewis has to be commended for his conduct throughout, for his post-race comments, and for taking a view of putting this to bed. As painful as it must have been for him there's no way he'll want to win the 8th by being awarded it in a judicial review. He'll certainly have the fire in his belly for next season.

I just hope McLaren can pull off something spectacular next year with the new car regulations and blow everyone out of the water. Come on Lando!