Kabul to fall

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Strange how nations were happy to maintain a presence in Germany to stop the Communists hordes marauding up Unter Den Linden from 1945 to 2020 but did not want to remain in Afghanistan for another minute.

Obviously, paranoia only applies to Communism.

[Herman 9,836]

1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

Trump and Biden are almost completely in step on this.  Everyone recognises this, but it still won't stop the pink un dividing along now traditional lines.

It's only Rocky that won't accept this to  be fair. 

[Barbe bleu 832]

21 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's only Rocky that won't accept this to  be fair. 

I'd say rocky and der kommisar are as bad as each other in making this about which president is more to blame but the rest seem to acknowledge that the same path would have been trodden whoever won in November.

[horsefly 4,318]

54 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'd say rocky and der kommisar are as bad as each other in making this about which president is more to blame but the rest seem to acknowledge that the same path would have been trodden whoever won in November.

Nonsense as usual.

[Herman 9,836]

59 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'd say rocky and der kommisar are as bad as each other in making this about which president is more to blame but the rest seem to acknowledge that the same path would have been trodden whoever won in November.

I'm not sure they are as bad as each other. One has particularly strong opinions which you don't like and the other regularly peddles misinformation. 

[horsefly 4,318]

1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

I'd say rocky and der kommisar are as bad as each other in making this about which president is more to blame but the rest seem to acknowledge that the same path would have been trodden whoever won in November.

And as usual, BB has absolutely nothing to say that contributes anything remotely interesting. Please explain what I got wrong in my description of Trump's actions. And please explain how my comment, " It is highly regrettable that Biden did virtually nothing to mitigate against the obvious failings in Trump's egregious abandonment of the Afghan people, and he should be held accountable for his role in this calamity.", is to be taken as an endorsement of Biden's response. As usual, you have to lied about what others have said to pursue your petty personal animosity. Pathetic!

[Barbe bleu 832]

4 minutes ago, Herman said:

I'm not sure they are as bad as each other. One has particularly strong opinions which you don't like and the other regularly peddles misinformation. 

They both have opinions I dont really support.

I cant see that either has peddled misinformation on this thread.  Maybe on the EU ones, but that's a very special place so expected there and I'm not going to bother looking.

What I am pointing out is that the pair of them are opening (ironically) another Trump/Biden front here when really there is nothing to separate the two on this issue.

And yes  I dislike the horsefly character's morally and intellectually 'superior' hectoring and his constant need for the last word.    But then I don't believe that whoever is at the keyboard really is the semi retired academic  with unresolved issues that is being portrayed.

 

[horsefly 4,318]

54 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

They both have opinions I dont really support.

I cant see that either has peddled misinformation on this thread.  Maybe on the EU ones, but that's a very special place so expected there and I'm not going to bother looking.

What I am pointing out is that the pair of them are opening (ironically) another Trump/Biden front here when really there is nothing to separate the two on this issue.

And yes  I dislike the horsefly character's morally and intellectually 'superior' hectoring and his constant need for the last word.    But then I don't believe that whoever is at the keyboard really is the semi retired academic  with unresolved issues that is being portrayed.

 

And yet again you can't control your personal animosity so feel the need to peddle lies.The little I have said about myself is true, and you have absolutely no grounds to dispute it, yet you do nonetheless. I have not speculated at all about your personal situation. But then I find your contributions to be filled with barely disguised animosity, and an absolute bore, so frankly who you are, and why you feel the need to speculate wildly about other people's personal situation is of no interest to me. It's just sad that you have nothing worthwhile to say about the issues instead of attempting your ill-judged character assassinations.

Edited August 26, 2021 by horsefly

[horsefly 4,318]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And yes  I dislike the horsefly character's morally and intellectually 'superior' hectoring and his constant need for the last word.    But then I don't believe that whoever is at the keyboard really is the semi retired academic  with unresolved issues that is being portrayed.

Your lack of self-awareness is laughable.

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

The funny thing is, if people agree that getting out is the right thing to do, but quibbling about the method rather than the principle, then isn't it a sign that a lot's essentially correct?

What I'd like to know is what's this money saved going to be spent on now. Probably not universal healthcare or greater access to education.

[horsefly 4,318]

31 minutes ago, TheGunnShow said:

The funny thing is, if people agree that getting out is the right thing to do, but quibbling about the method rather than the principle, then isn't it a sign that a lot's essentially correct?

What I'd like to know is what's this money saved going to be spent on now. Probably not universal healthcare or greater access to education.

Wallpaper!

[Surfer 1,547]

4 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Strange how nations were happy to maintain a presence in Germany to stop the Communists hordes marauding up Unter Den Linden from 1945 to 2020 but did not want to remain in Afghanistan for another minute.

Obviously, paranoia only applies to Communism.

Well to be fair, there may have been an aspect of "strategic interest" in that decision. On the other hand you may be right as paranoia over Communism drove the interventions in Korea, Vietnam and Afghanistan (supporting the Mujahideen)  

[Barbe bleu 832]

49 minutes ago, horsefly said:

And yet again you can't control your personal animosity so feel the need to peddle lies.The little I have said about myself is true, and you have absolutely no grounds to dispute it, yet you do nonetheless. I have not speculated at all about your personal situation. But then I find your contributions to be filled with barely disguised animosity, and an absolute bore, so frankly who you are, and why you feel the need to speculate wildly about other people's personal situation is of no interest to me. It's just sad that you have nothing worthwhile to say about the issues instead of attempting your ill-judged character assassinations.

I feel that I might owe you an apology.  

From your first appearance last September I had assumed that someone had created a character of a disaffected and disillusioned 'lefty' academic (probably after watching educating rita)  as a means to mix it up in here.

A lot of my posting has been 'playing along' (knowing of  your need for the last word has been good sport and the unread phd comment was pretty much invited) but a lot has been motivated by your uncanny ability to derail every discussion and my refusal to let this happen.

I'll apologise for the former and hope you reflect on the latter ( you can reply with 'patronising tosh!' If you like)

For what it is worth i do think that somewhere hidden  by the windmilling berserker and the exclamation marks (pathetic!) are often some very valid and thoughtful  comments.

[horsefly 4,318]

50 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I feel that I might owe you an apology.  

From your first appearance last September I had assumed that someone had created a character of a disaffected and disillusioned 'lefty' academic (probably after watching educating rita)  as a means to mix it up in here.

A lot of my posting has been 'playing along' (knowing of  your need for the last word has been good sport and the unread phd comment was pretty much invited) but a lot has been motivated by your uncanny ability to derail every discussion and my refusal to let this happen.

I'll apologise for the former and hope you reflect on the latter ( you can reply with 'patronising tosh!' If you like)

For what it is worth i do think that somewhere hidden  by the windmilling berserker and the exclamation marks (pathetic!) are often some very valid and thoughtful  comments.

I will accept your apology as genuine, so thank you very much. I also accept that I often put forward my views very stridently and no doubt that can be irritating at times. However, any view I do put forward is genuinely held as I see no point in playing silly games about serious matters. If you look carefully you will see that I stick rigorously to the topic matter unless someone decides to respond with ad hominem insults (or childish accussations about me being Bill), and under those circumstances I will indeed often respond in kind. If people address the actual points I make then they will find I will respond likewise. 

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

On 25/08/2021 at 15:30, Surfer said:

 

Given the circumstances, to have evacuated 90,000 people without major loss of life is an incredible logistical feat, and far from chaos. 

This didn't age well

[Canary Wundaboy 1,360]

6 hours ago, keelansgrandad said:

Strange how nations were happy to maintain a presence in Germany to stop the Communists hordes marauding up Unter Den Linden from 1945 to 2020 but did not want to remain in Afghanistan for another minute.

Obviously, paranoia only applies to Communism.

Totally different situation though, state warfare was so civilised back then. There was very little risk of death and actual conflict, but Afghanistan is full of people with bombs who will strap them to anything including themselves to try and kill our troops.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

2 hours ago, TheGunnShow said:

The funny thing is, if people agree that getting out is the right thing to do, but quibbling about the method rather than the principle, then isn't it a sign that a lot's essentially correct?

What I'd like to know is what's this money saved going to be spent on now. Probably not universal healthcare or greater access to education.

Well done, Gunny. You acknowledge the point I am making that others wish to ignore. I don't know whether they ignore my point because they disagree with my politics and therefore feel the need to disagree with everything I have to say on any subject, or whether it's a hangover from hate everything that Trump did means loving everything non-Trump, but whatever motivates them drives them to daft conclusions such as claiming there in no chaos in the evacuation of troops and allies from Kabul airport. 

The suicide bomb was only to be expected. Do we know if the Americans had a contingency plan to deal with the inevitable? If so, why did it fail.

There are thousands of European and American passport holders stranded in Kabul who have been told not to approach the airport. So after August 31, we have a ready-made pool of hostages that the Taliban and Isis can leverage for their nefarious benefit. Was there ever a contingency plan to evacuate civilians before the 31st deadline, and if so why did it fail? At the end of the day, the buck stops with the American president.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Who is saying we are right to pull out?

We have now handed the Taliban all the weapons of the Afghan Army. We would find it harder to go back again.

Keeping 10K military there would have deterred the Taliban.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

6 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

Trump and Biden are almost completely in step on this.  Everyone recognises this, but it still won't stop the pink un dividing along now traditional lines.

Which is exactly what I have said multiple times. Where I diverge is on manner of departure which seems to be undertaken with no contingency planning whatsoever. Other posters wish to pin the blame on Trump for the failings in Afghanistan whereas the real failure we are witnessing right now is the total lack of evacuation management. That can only be a responsibility of the current incumbent. The fall of Kabul as we are witnessing it right now has nothing to do with previous incumbents. It's like blaming JFK for the fall of Saigon. Daft.

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Who is saying we are right to pull out?

We have now handed the Taliban all the weapons of the Afghan Army. We would find it harder to go back again.

Keeping 10K military there would have deterred the Taliban.

I'm quite surprised that you're arguing for a continuation of a war that has netted the US military-industrial complex a cool US$1trillion over the past twenty years. Instead of investing that money into high-tech weaponry, imagine what might have been achieved if that was $1 trillion invested in medical research.

[Essjayess 307]

5 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Who is saying we are right to pull out?

We have now handed the Taliban all the weapons of the Afghan Army. We would find it harder to go back again.

Keeping 10K military there would have deterred the Taliban.

I am saying it for sure. Absolutely no sense keeping western troops in a nation that is traditionally tribal and war like. The Mujahideen or  other tribal warlords there are sure to be who detest the Taliban...civil war is commonplace in such a nation. The collapse of the Afghan army will only have bolstered this, im sure not all their weapons will have been snatched by the Taliban alone.

We are a small nation with a small military armed forces these days, its ridiculous that we should  ever be involved with such a no win situation as policing a tribalised, war lord  country that really has no interest for us relatively.

[horsefly 4,318]

On 20/08/2021 at 23:29, Van wink said:

The only people that matter in this are the Afghan people, it’s a sad reflection on this message board to see the discussion of this appalling situating degrade into pathetic political finger pointing and blaming by the usual suspects !!

 

On 20/08/2021 at 23:55, Van wink said:

I for one would welcome a refugee in my home as I’m sure would many of us. That’s what’s important to me not political posturing

 

On 22/08/2021 at 13:04, Van wink said:

Not intended insult sonyc , far from it in fact, I find you to be a poster who tries to keep perspective with balance. This whole thing is such a **** show that its sometimes hard to retain some equilibrium. Of course wrong doing must be called out, particularly when we see such terrible events, I guess what is so frustrating is that I can’t really think of any public or political figure worthy of credit. 

 

On 23/08/2021 at 18:39, Van wink said:

There's a fine line between courage and foolhardiness, which IMO Biden has crossed. I wouldn't be surprised if Kamala is parachuted in faster than even she had planned.

 

On 23/08/2021 at 21:06, Van wink said:

Appalling misjudgement, failure of intelligence or unwillingness to hear the messages.

Good luck explaining how those quotes don't demonstrate you to be a complete hypocrite.

[1902 1,167]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Well done, Gunny. You acknowledge the point I am making that others wish to ignore. I don't know whether they ignore my point because they disagree with my politics and therefore feel the need to disagree with everything I have to say on any subject, or whether it's a hangover from hate everything that Trump did means loving everything non-Trump, but whatever motivates them drives them to daft conclusions such as claiming there in no chaos in the evacuation of troops and allies from Kabul airport. 

The suicide bomb was only to be expected. Do we know if the Americans had a contingency plan to deal with the inevitable? If so, why did it fail.

There are thousands of European and American passport holders stranded in Kabul who have been told not to approach the airport. So after August 31, we have a ready-made pool of hostages that the Taliban and Isis can leverage for their nefarious benefit. Was there ever a contingency plan to evacuate civilians before the 31st deadline, and if so why did it fail? At the end of the day, the buck stops with the American president.

Both are responsible, one set the US on an insane path by failing to consult allies, negotiating with a group that cannot be reasoned with and helping the Taliban plan by allowing them to prepare for a push in full knowledge that the US would be pulling out and would not be able to recommit and Biden took a bad policy and made it worse by not anticipating such a fast collapse.

You can't seriously argue that people are so biased that they blame Trump for everything and ignore Biden's role, and then try to pretend that Trump didn't start the US down a dangerous path.

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

The suicide bomb was only to be expected. Do we know if the Americans had a contingency plan to deal with the inevitable? If so, why did it fail.

There are thousands of European and American passport holders stranded in Kabul who have been told not to approach the airport. So after August 31, we have a ready-made pool of hostages that the Taliban and Isis can leverage for their nefarious benefit. Was there ever a contingency plan to evacuate civilians before the 31st deadline, and if so why did it fail? At the end of the day, the buck stops with the American president.

Listen to yourself.

If the suicide bombing was inevitable then any contingency plan would fail to prevent it wouldn't it?

The US Embassy has been telling American citizens to leave Afghanistan (at no cost) FOR MONTHS.

For some reason the right wing seem to be over the moon that there was this dual bombing today. It's sick.

 

[Surfer 1,547]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

I'm quite surprised that you're arguing for a continuation of a war that has netted the US military-industrial complex a cool US$1trillion over the past twenty years. Instead of investing that money into high-tech weaponry, imagine what might have been achieved if that was $1 trillion invested in medical research.

The point is well taken RTB but I think your numbers are off. US expenditure on the Afghanistan and Iraq wars is around $6 Trillion. Medical research, infrastructure, education, foreign aid, public financing of political parties, there are so many things that this money could have been spent on to much better effect.

[Van wink 2,994]

51 minutes ago, horsefly said:

 

 

 

 

Good luck explaining how those quotes don't demonstrate you to be a complete hypocrite.

 

52 minutes ago, horsefly said:

 

 

 

 

Good luck explaining how those quotes don't demonstrate you to be a complete hypocrite.

Quack

[Van wink 2,994]

32 minutes ago, 1902 said:

Both are responsible, one set the US on an insane path by failing to consult allies, negotiating with a group that cannot be reasoned with and helping the Taliban plan by allowing them to prepare for a push in full knowledge that the US would be pulling out and would not be able to recommit and Biden took a bad policy and made it worse by not anticipating such a fast collapse.

You can't seriously argue that people are so biased that they blame Trump for everything and ignore Biden's role, and then try to pretend that Trump didn't start the US down a dangerous path.

Spot on, hard not to react when we see a partisan post, but most posters thankfully are keeping a reasonable perspective.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Van wink

[horsefly 4,318]

1 minute ago, Van wink said:

 

Quack

Senile as well I see. But of course no answer, as ever.

[Essjayess 307]

1 hour ago, Rock The Boat said:

Which is exactly what I have said multiple times. Where I diverge is on manner of departure which seems to be undertaken with no contingency planning whatsoever. Other posters wish to pin the blame on Trump for the failings in Afghanistan whereas the real failure we are witnessing right now is the total lack of evacuation management. That can only be a responsibility of the current incumbent. The fall of Kabul as we are witnessing it right now has nothing to do with previous incumbents. It's like blaming JFK for the fall of Saigon. Daft.

Mostly agree with this. Only thing i think Biden has done right is insist August 31st  remains the deadline for all evacuation, but there really should have been much  more sooner rather than later withdrawals from the country. Even some Taliban were wounded in todays explosions...sign of things to come i believe. Anyone who thinks after August and into the future that the Taliban, the opposing war lords and still active groups like Isis and Al Quaeda are all going to snuggle up together in a peaceful unity like system then im afraid they will be wrong.

[Van wink 2,994]

Just now, horsefly said:

Senile as well I see. But of course no answer, as ever.

Ouch....such a familiar style😉