When will the UK rejoin the EU?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

4 minutes ago, 1902 said:

That's fair, but I think it's a jump to then argue it will be a gateway for us to create a relationship with the EU. 

Yes, it's a jump, but it's not really a huge jump given the direction of travel of the EU itself regarding Asia Pacific. 

[1902 1,167]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yeah, but, with respect, I think everybody can agree that a majority of the public is completely clueless. We are no longer members of the EU; we are no longer members of the single market; we have left the EU; Brexit is done. Anything to do with Northern Ireland, technical barriers, the trade agreement is all post-Brexit stuff. 

But does the majority of the population think it's clueless? If not then this will be a political issue for a long time yet. In which case the arguments will continue.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

1 minute ago, 1902 said:

But does the majority of the population think it's clueless? If not then this will be a political issue for a long time yet. In which case the arguments will continue.

Everyone who matters will tell them that they're not, while largely ignoring them as usual, save for reference to public polls where it suits an argument. I'm a nobody, so I'm allowed to say things like that. 😉

Edited June 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[1902 1,167]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Yes, it's a jump, but it's not really a huge jump given the direction of travel of the EU itself regarding Asia Pacific. 

I would have absolutely agreed a couple of years ago, but it's rapidly changing now, deepening links beyond the NZ and Aus FTAs is really not on the EU agenda now. Full disclosure, I say that as someone whose old job was for the EU and was related to trade.

[1902 1,167]

2 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Everyone who matters will tell them that they're not, while largely ignoring them as usual, save for reference to public polls where it suits an argument. I'm a nobody, so I'm allowed to say things like that. 😉

I'm also a nobody. So I can agree with you.

[How I Wrote Elastic Man 1,189]

The UK should be concentrating on delivering that Free Trade Zone from Iceland to Turkey, that all European countries have access to

[Yellow Fever 3,814]

48 minutes ago, 1902 said:

I really dislike the "pensioners are selfish" argument. Nearly every piece of research I have ever seen suggests that when questioned most humans think that the best time in history is when they themselves were around 18.

Most of those people voting for it are voting for Brexit because they genuinely believe life was better back and that a world that has passed can be brought back. They also tend to think that when they had the least responsibilities, they had no grey hair and before doctors told them to stop smoking and cut down on the food and drink for the sake of their health was also a good time for everyone else. It's a trap we all fall into.

Is that deeply misguided in my view, yes. Is it selfish, not really.

Misguided if you like but its clearly an argument that needs stating. Whatever their intentions were (and I agree with you the 18 year old argument - even the Romans knew that truth 'It was Better in my day") they were clearly voting for something they were unlikely to ever fully see the consequences of. If they understood that then selfish - if not then misguided 😉. Better to abstain in general if you were 70+. Brexit was not a 5 year deal.

CPTTP is what I would call 'vapour-ware' as it appears is much discussed US trade deal. It's simply another myth that may one-day happen but not as advertised and is not here properly now. When it is we'll likely find the EU/SM there already. Frankly its just another myth/wish of the Tory's to excuse their lack of judgement.

Edited June 17, 2022 by Yellow Fever

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

18 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

This was the agreed position of the Conservative party, whose fate was irrevocably linked to delivering on the referendum result, and the Labour party, which was too terrified of alienating its northern seats to actually take any stand contrary to the result, but otherwise it's total bunk.

The advisory referendum was called on a position that David Cameron committed that his government would deliver on the outcome of the result. Once leave won the referendum, his immediate action was to resign. Once Theresa May formed a government, she chose to make it her position to honour the referendum result and followed through in that direction, only to then call a general election that lost her the number of MPs needed to push forward and left us with a parliament that claimed to be intent on delivering on the referendum, but in practise simply delivering paralysis. 

After two years of that, we had another general election where the public voted for a Conservative majority where they were once again choosing to stand on a platform of delivering the result. But ultimately, Brexit was only delivered because people voted subsequently for representatives that sought to enact it. The idea that the referendum result put any obligation on subsequent governments is just daft. At the very least, it would be enough to have another referendum, and if those who still think remaining wouldn't have been the outcome in another vote following election of a government that stood on remaining then I've no idea why people are still complaining about the outcome of the referendum, or still rerunning all of the arguments. 

I cannot agree with you at all. While referenda are not legally binding, it would be immoral to ignore the result. Cameron, never brave enough to handle pressure, melted and had no morality in carrying out the will of the nation. May was the patsy who was left with the Kobayashi Maru exercise. No doubt elected leader to fail. And the grey men in the shadows never expected the chaos to happen and the divisio in parliament made it far easier for a slighted EU.

But even most remain voters did not want another vote but merely an agreement that would probably include membership of the single market. Lets face it, the referendum never mentioned a hard leave.

[1902 1,167]

21 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

Misguided if you like but its clearly an argument that needs stating. Whatever their intentions were (and I agree with you the 18 year old argument - even the Romans knew that truth 'It was Better in my day") they were clearly voting for something they were unlikely to ever fully see the consequences of. If they understood that then selfish - if not then misguided 😉. Better to abstain in general if you were 70+. Brexit was not a 5 year deal.

CPTTP is what I would call 'vapour-ware' as it appears is much discussed US trade deal. It's simply another myth that may one-day happen but not as advertised and is not here properly now. When it is we'll likely find the EU/SM there already. Frankly its just another myth/wish of the Tory's to excuse their lack of judgement.

Your premise is that they voted to see it purely for themselves. When my Grandfather says that he voted Brexit because society has gone wrong and that I will understand the benefits in 20 years when we have undone all that terrible European influence, he isn't being selfish. He genuinely thinks that he will die and I will look at his grave and thank him for being able to use oz and lbs again whilst travelling on my blue passport. For an avowed anti-communist, he doesn't half like to use a false consciousness argument when it comes to Europe.

Edited June 17, 2022 by 1902

[Yellow Fever 3,814]

1 minute ago, 1902 said:

Your premise is that they voted to see it purely for themselves. When my Grandfather says that he voted Brexit because society has gone wrong and that I will understand the benefits in 20 years when we have undone all that terrible European influence, he isn't being selfish. He genuinely thinks that he will die and I will look at his grave and thank him for being able to use oz and lbs again whilst travelling on my blue passport. For an avowed anti-communist, he doesn't half like to use a false consciousness argument when it comes to Europe.

Arh. Semantics. I'm happy either way.  The truth is people can be selfish without realizing it. Your Grandpa may indeed believe his actions are for your good (ergo he know's better than you) but that could be construed as selfish. It's what he wants today not necessarily you.

By the way I would take the same view of any Indy ref as well. Its a question really for the under 70's who will have to 'live' it!

 

[1902 1,167]

Just now, Yellow Fever said:

Arh. Semantics. I'm happy either way.  The truth is people can be selfish without realizing it. Your Grandpa may indeed believe his actions are for your good (ergo he know's better than you) but that could be construed as selfish. It's what he wants today not necessarily you.

By the way I would take the same view of any Indy ref as well. Its a question really for the under 70's who will have to 'live' it!

 

Ohh he definitely thinks he knows better than me, but then again, I think I know better than him :).

[benchwarmer 625]

Amidst the inter-generational infighting, one uncomfortable fact needs stating: if those under-35s who didn't vote in the referendum had actually done so, the result would probably have gone the other way.

Edited June 17, 2022 by benchwarmer

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

6 minutes ago, benchwarmer said:

Amidst the inter-generational infighting, one uncomfortable fact needs stating: that if those under-35s who didn't vote in the referendum had actually done so, the result would probably have gone the other way.

And we would never have had the bumbling buffoon as PM.

[Creative Midfielder 2,000]

1 minute ago, benchwarmer said:

Amidst the inter-generation infighting, one uncomfortable fact needs stating: that if those under-35s who didn't vote in the referendum had actually done so, the result would probably have gone the other way.

Very true, but I think we have the idiot Cameron to thank for that - I don't think I can remember another election/referendum campaign as remotely dismal and negative as his 'pro-Remain' campaign. Under 35s don't have a great voting record generally and Cameron did absolutely nothing to motivate them.

On top of that I'm pretty sure that he irritated many 35+ Remainers to such an extent that some proabably voted Leave just to have a pop at him whilst thinking that Remain would win anyway.

[horsefly 4,310]

2 hours ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

CPTPP is a starting point as it stands. As to it being 'my pet project' I have absolutely no involvement in it at any level. As stated though, it's a significant multilateral trade project with opportunity for growth and development, including better trade ties with the EU via that platform down the line.

People who reach for the single market as the 'panacea' right now as non EU members shouldn't be allowed anywhere near government at this point in time; that should be a last resort when all other possibilities are exhausted, which they aren't. 

 

It seems rather odd to leave one international market organisation on the grounds of wanting our freedom, only to join another inferior one. 2 issues  immediately concern me:

1. What are we going to export to those markets several thousand miles away? Certainly not much of the stuff we traded with the EU (fish, cheese etc).

2. If the trade deals we agreed with CPTPP members Australia and New Zealand are any guide then I'm seriously underwhelmed. Even the government's own assessments demonstrated that those two countries benefitted far more from the deals than the UK.

[Yellow Fever 3,814]

1 minute ago, horsefly said:

It seems rather odd to leave one international market organisation on the grounds of wanting our freedom, only to join another inferior one. 2 issues  immediately concern me:

1. What are we going to export to those markets several thousand miles away? Certainly not much of the stuff we traded with the EU (fish, cheese etc).

2. If the trade deals we agreed with CPTPP members Australia and New Zealand are any guide then I'm seriously underwhelmed. Even the government's own assessments demonstrated that those two countries benefitted far more from the deals than the UK.

I think its losing two large birds in the hand for a scrawny one possibly in the bush.

[horsefly 4,310]

Just now, Yellow Fever said:

I think its losing two large birds in the hand for a scrawny one possibly in the bush.

I think I've discovered the "scrawny bird" we'll be offered

 

[Creative Midfielder 2,000]

One very small step in the right direction, https://labourlist.org/2022/06/unison-vote-to-back-pr-hailed-as-huge-boost-by-electoral-reform-campaigners/?amp  - will be interesting to see what, if any, impact this will have on Labour's stance as there seem to be more and more unions as well as other Labour linked groups working hard to introduce the Labour Party to the 21st century 😄

Edited June 17, 2022 by Creative Midfielder

[benchwarmer 625]

On 11/06/2022 at 15:17, Herman said:

Maybe we should all agree to never have referendums again on extremely complex issues?!

And that any referendum on any issue should have a minimum turnout of 75%.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

It seems rather odd to leave one international market organisation on the grounds of wanting our freedom, only to join another inferior one. 2 issues  immediately concern me:

1. What are we going to export to those markets several thousand miles away? Certainly not much of the stuff we traded with the EU (fish, cheese etc).

2. If the trade deals we agreed with CPTPP members Australia and New Zealand are any guide then I'm seriously underwhelmed. Even the government's own assessments demonstrated that those two countries benefitted far more from the deals than the UK.

Are you saying because we aren't in the EU, you're against joining any other multilateral trade agreements?

Edited June 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 2,000]

1 minute ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Are you saying because we aren't in the EU, you're against joining any other trade organisation?

I thought what he said was both clear and unambiguous - "It seems rather odd to leave one international market organisation on the grounds of wanting our freedom, only to join another inferior one."

Which bit of that don't you understand?

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

10 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

I thought what he said was both clear and unambiguous - "It seems rather odd to leave one international market organisation on the grounds of wanting our freedom, only to join another inferior one."

Which bit of that don't you understand?

Use the forum's search function; you can find the answers to the same question six or so months ago if you're that fussed. I really can't be bothered getting into the rights and wrongs of leaving the EU because the subject has been done to death and we are no longer members of the EU, but speaking from my own point of view as a remain voter and two times Lib dem voter who voted on that basis mostly over NI and trade, while disliking the deceitful fashion in which ever closer political union has been pursued in the EU, I personally am very much in favour of pursuing membership of another bloc for the benefits that will add to expanding further trade in goods and services. As such, horsefly's question is better directed at someone who voted to leave and is against trade agreements, which isn't me.

As far as New Zealand and Australia are concerned, we gave them a lot of concessions on dairy and livestock at a time when dairy and livestock are increasingly frowned on for environmental reasons anyway, so perhaps it's not as big a deal as people think.

Edited June 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[Creative Midfielder 2,000]

3 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Use the forum's search function; you can find the answers to the same question six or so months ago if you're that fussed. I really can't be bothered getting into the rights and wrongs of leaving the EU because the subject has been done to death, but speaking from my own point of view as a remain voter and two times Lib dem voter who voted on that basis mostly over NI and trade, while disliking the deceitful fashion in which ever closer Union has been pursued in the EU, I personally am very much in favour of pursuing membership of another bloc. As such, horsefly's question is better directed at someone who voted to leave and is against trade agreements, which isn't me.

Now I'm really confused - according to what I've retained from my English language O level @horsefly made a statement and you responded with a question (predicated on a misunderstanding of his statement or a disingenuous interpretation of it).

Either way your enthusiasm for CPTPP is both desperate and risible.

[horsefly 4,310]

16 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

Are you saying because we aren't in the EU, you're against joining any other multilateral trade agreements?

Not at all! I merely pointed out the contradiction and absurdity in leaving one such organisation on the grounds that it restricted our freedom, only to propose joining an inferior version. Even dear old Nige worked that one out. If we are going to join such an organisation, best we re-join the EU single market so our exporters can once again enjoy frictionless trade for the goods we have been selling to Europe for years, and solve the otherwise irresolvable NI question at the same time.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

2 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Not at all! I merely pointed out the contradiction and absurdity in leaving one such organisation on the grounds that it restricted our freedom, only to propose joining an inferior version. Even dear old Nige worked that one out. If we are going to join such an organisation, best we re-join the EU single market so our exporters can once again enjoy frictionless trade for the goods we have been selling to Europe for years, and solve the otherwise irresolvable NI question at the same time.

Sure, but most of the reasons leave voters will point to were about everything but trade.

[horsefly 4,310]

Just now, littleyellowbirdie said:

Sure, but most of the reasons leave voters will point to were about everything but trade.

Indeed! I have no doubt that plain old racism played a big part among Brexit voters. But the government were pretty clear that the main purpose of Brexit was to regain our trading freedom. I fail to see how joining the CPTPP doesn't flatly contradict that claim.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

6 minutes ago, Creative Midfielder said:

Now I'm really confused - according to what I've retained from my English language O level @horsefly made a statement and you responded with a question (predicated on a misunderstanding of his statement or a disingenuous interpretation of it).

Either way your enthusiasm for CPTPP is both desperate and risible.

Desperate and risible enthusiasm? I'd say your desire to write it off before we've even joined out of petulance is a bit pathetic, but there you go. The other members didn't start the organisation just for the sake of it. It might turn out to bea good thing. By all means though, keep a closed mind and sulk if it makes you feel better about it all.

 

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

5 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Indeed! I have no doubt that plain old racism played a big part among Brexit voters. But the government were pretty clear that the main purpose of Brexit was to regain our trading freedom. I fail to see how joining the CPTPP doesn't flatly contradict that claim.

David Cameron's government was pushing remain at the time of the referendum, pushing the economic benefits of the single market as the main justification. 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by littleyellowbirdie

[littleyellowbirdie 2,566]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I think its losing two large birds in the hand for a scrawny one possibly in the bush.

I think we've already lost the two large birds, so grab the scrawny bird feed it up, and maybe see if we can fatten it up enough that the other birds fancy breeding.

[horsefly 4,310]

5 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

David Cameron's government was pushing remain at the time of the referendum, pushing the economic benefits of the single market as the main justification. 

 

 

Do forgive me. I should have been clear I was referring to Johnson's government after the referendum and the arguments he put forward in the 2019 election promising to get Brexit done.