Naturalcynic 631 Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pugin said: OK, let's make it 'black lives matter' instead of 'Black Lives Matter.' That way, it's just a statement of support for a sector of society who face inherent prejudice, and in the States murder as sport, and nobody can make these fallacious claims that supporters are Marxists / Leninists / Trotskites / revolutionaries / anarchists / men from the moon / etc etc. OK, let’s just make it “Kick it out” and get rid of “taking the knee” completely. That way football’s stance against racism continues and the divisive link with BLM is removed. Edited December 24, 2020 by Naturalcynic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terminally Yellow 2,448 Posted December 24, 2020 41 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said: OK, let’s just make it “Kick it out” and get rid of “taking the knee” completely. That way football’s stance against racism continues and the divisive link with BLM is removed. Or (and here's an idea) You can stop linking taking the knee to any organisation and see it for what it is - a gesture against racism - like the majority of reasonable people. After all, it's been linked solely to provide an excuse to raging racists for their behaviour (I'm looking at you Millwall fans) and adopted by the shall we say more impressionable among us who are incapable of individual thought. Problem solved. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, Fen Canary said: As has been said previously many people, myself included, see the kneeling as part of the wider BLM movement, rather than a simple anti discrimination stunt... I don’t think you can seperate it from those people in the summer who were defacing statues and assaulting the police under the same paraphernalia. 1) Then you're wrong and it might be an idea to reconsider why you think that, especially after you've been told, on multiple occasions, that it is quite clearly not linked to political aims. 2) In the summer, people who opposed the BLM protests assaulted police officers and invited violence. After one protest, called to "protect statues", 23 police officers were injured and 100 arrested. During the protests they chanted "Churchill, one of our own" while also giving N@zi salutes. So, given that you're continuing to link "taking the knee" with BLM, do you also link those voicing their opposition to far-right extremism? Surely, if it's so hard to separate the anti-racism gesture from BLM it's similarly difficult to separate opposition to it from facism. Edited December 24, 2020 by kirku Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 631 Posted December 24, 2020 12 minutes ago, kirku said: 1) Then you're wrong and it might be an idea to reconsider why you think that, especially after you've been told, on multiple occasions, that it is quite clearly not linked to political aims. 2) In the summer, people who opposed the BLM protests assaulted police officers and invited violence. After one protest, called to "protect statues", 23 police officers were injured and 100 arrested. During the protests they chanted "Churchill, one of our own" while also giving N@zi salutes. So, given that you're continuing to link "taking the knee" with BLM, do you also link those voicing their opposition to far-right extremism? Surely, if it's so hard to separate the anti-racism gesture from BLM it's similarly difficult to separate opposition to it from facism. I think most people agree that extremism, whether left, right or religious, is dangerous. As has been argued incessantly, many people see the underlying political aims of the BLM movement to be pretty extreme. I accept that some commenters insist otherwise, but many also see “taking a knee” as being symbolic support for BLM, an opinion that has been reinforced over and over again by Sky TV and by footballers wearing that statement on their shirts. The BLM movement is deliberately divisive and polarises opinions, as continues to be demonstrated by the pages and pages of argument on here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fen Canary 824 Posted December 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Pugin said: OK, let's make it 'black lives matter' instead of 'Black Lives Matter.' That way, it's just a statement of support for a sector of society who face inherent prejudice, and in the States murder as sport, and nobody can make these fallacious claims that supporters are Marxists / Leninists / Trotskites / revolutionaries / anarchists / men from the moon / etc etc. What’s wrong with Kick It Out? Why focus on discrimination against one group rather than racism as a whole? Why do you feel the need to try and import American problems and pretend they’re in any way relevant to Britain? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 631 Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Fen Canary said: What’s wrong with Kick It Out? Why focus on discrimination against one group rather than racism as a whole? Why do you feel the need to try and import American problems and pretend they’re in any way relevant to Britain? Agreed. Sky News have just shown a sports feature which ended with three separate images of footballers “taking a knee” followed by the statement “Black Lives Matter” emblazoned across the entire screen. Anyone who continues to argue that “taking a knee” has nothing to do with BLM is being more than a little obtuse. Edited December 24, 2020 by Naturalcynic 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fen Canary 824 Posted December 24, 2020 36 minutes ago, kirku said: 1) Then you're wrong and it might be an idea to reconsider why you think that, especially after you've been told, on multiple occasions, that it is quite clearly not linked to political aims. 2) In the summer, people who opposed the BLM protests assaulted police officers and invited violence. After one protest, called to "protect statues", 23 police officers were injured and 100 arrested. During the protests they chanted "Churchill, one of our own" while also giving N@zi salutes. So, given that you're continuing to link "taking the knee" with BLM, do you also link those voicing their opposition to far-right extremism? Surely, if it's so hard to separate the anti-racism gesture from BLM it's similarly difficult to separate opposition to it from facism. Trying to pretend that “taking the knee” is in no way linked to BLM, even when it was emblazoned on the players shirts and was seen on multiple BLM protests is just nonsense I’m afraid. As has been said it first came to prominence with the NFL player doing it to highlight police brutality, but it has now become symbolic of the BLM movement whether you admit it or not. As for your second point I’m yet to see anybody doing gestures in support of the skinheads at the counter protests so it’s a moot point, simple whataboutery Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fen Canary 824 Posted December 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said: Or (and here's an idea) You can stop linking taking the knee to any organisation and see it for what it is - a gesture against racism - like the majority of reasonable people. After all, it's been linked solely to provide an excuse to raging racists for their behaviour (I'm looking at you Millwall fans) and adopted by the shall we say more impressionable among us who are incapable of individual thought. Problem solved. It was originally a gesture against police brutality in the States, it is now a symbol of BLM whether you admit it or not. Trying to seperate the side of the movement that was vandalising statues, attacking police and defacing the cenotaph from the side that preaches anti racism (though in a horribly divisive way) simply doesn’t wash with large swathes of the population. This is why football should never have got involved when it already had organisations such as Kick It Out who had done fantastic work regarding racism Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 631 Posted December 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Terminally Yellow said: Or (and here's an idea) You can stop linking taking the knee to any organisation and see it for what it is - a gesture against racism - like the majority of reasonable people. After all, it's been linked solely to provide an excuse to raging racists for their behaviour (I'm looking at you Millwall fans) and adopted by the shall we say more impressionable among us who are incapable of individual thought. Problem solved. The logo of BLM was put on huge banners in football grounds, players had it on their shirts, TV pundits wore BLM badges, commentators said over and over again that the players were “taking a knee” to show their support for BLM. Just this morning Sky News had a sports feature which concluded with three separate images of footballers “taking a knee” followed by the statement “Black Lives Matter” emblazoned across the entire screen. Anyone who continues to argue that “taking a knee” has nothing to do with BLM is being more than a little obtuse. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,767 Posted December 24, 2020 Judging this thread, and the others, taking the knee definitely works. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 631 Posted December 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, Herman said: Judging this thread, and the others, taking the knee definitely works. Works at what? Causing division? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,767 Posted December 24, 2020 Nah mate. It's getting racism,and the levels of it still, out into the open, getting it discussed rather than just nodded at. The Kick It Out campaign is admirable but it doesn't make enough noise or anger the right people. 15 seconds per game has caused millions of debates and even more written words, whether in support or disgust. Long may it continue. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted December 24, 2020 58 minutes ago, Fen Canary said: Trying to pretend that “taking the knee” is in no way linked to BLM, even when it was emblazoned on the players shirts and was seen on multiple BLM protests is just nonsense I’m afraid. As has been said it first came to prominence with the NFL player doing it to highlight police brutality, but it has now become symbolic of the BLM movement whether you admit it or not. As for your second point I’m yet to see anybody doing gestures in support of the skinheads at the counter protests so it’s a moot point, simple whataboutery 1) "This powerful symbol of solidarity represents the players' commitment to anti-racism and is not an endorsement of any political position...it is a peaceful act of unity that highlights a persistent and systemic issue." - PFA statement If you're unwilling or unable to understand that simple position, then that's on you. 2) It's not whataboutery at all, you've failed to understand the point (again). If you're unwilling to separate a "peaceful act of unity" from the minority actions of a protest, then why are you willing to separate opposition to it from the minority actions of a counter-protest? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted December 24, 2020 36 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said: Works at what? Causing division? If people calling for racial equality causes someone to get angry, what does it say about that person? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 631 Posted December 24, 2020 2 minutes ago, kirku said: If people calling for racial equality causes someone to get angry, what does it say about that person? Here we go again, round and round and round. See previous comments about the undeniable association between “taking a knee” and BLM, and also the undeniable underlying political agenda of the BLM movement. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted December 24, 2020 Just now, Naturalcynic said: Here we go again, round and round and round. See previous comments about the undeniable association between “taking a knee” and BLM, and also the undeniable underlying political agenda of the BLM movement. "This powerful symbol of solidarity represents the players' commitment to anti-racism and is not an endorsement of any political position...it is a peaceful act of unity that highlights a persistent and systemic issue." - PFA statement Perhaps the larger font will make it hard for you to ignore for, what, the 312th time? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thirsty Lizard 3,165 Posted December 24, 2020 3 hours ago, Naturalcynic said: I think most people agree that extremism, whether left, right or religious, is dangerous. As has been argued incessantly, many people see the underlying political aims of the BLM movement to be pretty extreme. I accept that some commenters insist otherwise, but many also see “taking a knee” as being symbolic support for BLM, an opinion that has been reinforced over and over again by Sky TV and by footballers wearing that statement on their shirts. The BLM movement is deliberately divisive and polarises opinions, as continues to be demonstrated by the pages and pages of argument on here. Because up to now nobody has ever, ever argued about anything on here. For the last 20 years all there has ever been on this board has been uniform agreement about each and every subject................................. until now when this divisive topic has come along. 🤣 😅 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Naturalcynic 631 Posted December 24, 2020 2 hours ago, kirku said: "This powerful symbol of solidarity represents the players' commitment to anti-racism and is not an endorsement of any political position...it is a peaceful act of unity that highlights a persistent and systemic issue." - PFA statement Perhaps the larger font will make it hard for you to ignore for, what, the 312th time? Type it in as large a font as you like, but the fact the PFA might now be trying to distance themselves from BLM changes nothing. Whether you like it or not, for many people the symbolism of “taking a knee” is now irreversibly linked with BLM. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Herman 9,767 Posted December 24, 2020 7 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said: Because up to now nobody has ever, ever argued about anything on here. For the last 20 years all there has ever been on this board has been uniform agreement about each and every subject................................. until now when this divisive topic has come along. 🤣 😅 Don't tell him about Bre*it.😳😂 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kirku 1,332 Posted December 24, 2020 23 minutes ago, Naturalcynic said: Type it in as large a font as you like, but the fact the PFA might now be trying to distance themselves from BLM changes nothing. Whether you like it or not, for many people the symbolism of “taking a knee” is now irreversibly linked with BLM. Facts don't care about your feelings, snowflake. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fen Canary 824 Posted December 24, 2020 8 hours ago, kirku said: 1) "This powerful symbol of solidarity represents the players' commitment to anti-racism and is not an endorsement of any political position...it is a peaceful act of unity that highlights a persistent and systemic issue." - PFA statement If you're unwilling or unable to understand that simple position, then that's on you. 2) It's not whataboutery at all, you've failed to understand the point (again). If you're unwilling to separate a "peaceful act of unity" from the minority actions of a protest, then why are you willing to separate opposition to it from the minority actions of a counter-protest? The PFA statement is wrong. If it is simply an anti racism stunt why did it start appearing at the same time as the players we were wearing shirts with Black Lives Matter on them? Why are they using the same gesture as was seen on Black Lives Matter marches throughout the summer? Trying to pretend that taking the knee by footballers wearing BLM attire while the stands and television coverage are all featuring BLM logos is somehow different to raking the knee by all those involved in the BLM antics previously is rubbish quite frankly. The football authorities have backed themselves into a corner by going all in with this divisive organisation, and are now trying to wriggle out if it. They could get away with it when no fans were allowed in, but as the crowds come back people are starting to show their displeasure and the authorities are trying to save face. As for your second point I still don’t understand the point you’re trying to make. I don’t know anybody who is separating the skinheads fighting the police at the counter protests from any other movement, or copying their gestures etc. If the players start wandering around the pitch with Combat 18 on their back because they “defended the statues” according to them you may have a point but I can’t see that happening anytime soon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Thirsty Lizard 3,165 Posted December 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Fen Canary said: The PFA statement is wrong. If it is simply an anti racism stunt why did it start appearing at the same time as the players we were wearing shirts with Black Lives Matter on them? Why are they using the same gesture as was seen on Black Lives Matter marches throughout the summer? Trying to pretend that taking the knee by footballers wearing BLM attire while the stands and television coverage are all featuring BLM logos is somehow different to raking the knee by all those involved in the BLM antics previously is rubbish quite frankly. The football authorities have backed themselves into a corner by going all in with this divisive organisation, and are now trying to wriggle out if it. They could get away with it when no fans were allowed in, but as the crowds come back people are starting to show their displeasure and the authorities are trying to save face. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but the overwhelming majority of football fans so far have shown their support for it. A few knuckle draggers at Millwall booed, thousands of fans at grounds up and down the country have clapped. A few morons at Cambridge booed - they were drowned out in seconds by people clapping. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Midlands Yellow 3,985 Posted December 24, 2020 10 hours ago, Herman said: Nah mate. It's getting racism,and the levels of it still, out into the open, getting it discussed rather than just nodded at. The Kick It Out campaign is admirable but it doesn't make enough noise or anger the right people. 15 seconds per game has caused millions of debates and even more written words, whether in support or disgust. Long may it continue. Can’t argue with that statement. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terminally Yellow 2,448 Posted December 24, 2020 10 hours ago, Naturalcynic said: The logo of BLM was put on huge banners in football grounds, players had it on their shirts, TV pundits wore BLM badges, commentators said over and over again that the players were “taking a knee” to show their support for BLM. Just this morning Sky News had a sports feature which concluded with three separate images of footballers “taking a knee” followed by the statement “Black Lives Matter” emblazoned across the entire screen. Anyone who continues to argue that “taking a knee” has nothing to do with BLM is being more than a little obtuse. Again - so what? From my experience, I haven't seen anything of the sort when attending the Preston match, watching the game on TV or other occasions. Not saying you're wrong - just it has been very discreet in my experience if it has. The motive of the players, staff and so many in football has been expressly made out repeatedly, vigorously and very forcefully. It is not the players fault if you can't differentiate between the two. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terminally Yellow 2,448 Posted December 24, 2020 1 hour ago, Fen Canary said: The PFA statement is wrong. If it is simply an anti racism stunt why did it start appearing at the same time as the players we were wearing shirts with Black Lives Matter on them? Why are they using the same gesture as was seen on Black Lives Matter marches throughout the summer? Trying to pretend that taking the knee by footballers wearing BLM attire while the stands and television coverage are all featuring BLM logos is somehow different to raking the knee by all those involved in the BLM antics previously is rubbish quite frankly. The football authorities have backed themselves into a corner by going all in with this divisive organisation, and are now trying to wriggle out if it. They could get away with it when no fans were allowed in, but as the crowds come back people are starting to show their displeasure and the authorities are trying to save face. What a load of absolute ****. I typed out about 300 words on why. Then I lost the will to live. Carry on with your ignorance. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Terminally Yellow 2,448 Posted December 24, 2020 7 hours ago, Naturalcynic said: Type it in as large a font as you like, but the fact the PFA might now be trying to distance themselves from BLM changes nothing. Whether you like it or not, for many people the symbolism of “taking a knee” is now irreversibly linked with BLM. Entirely different to the logos used by the political movement. If you can't take these three words literally anymore because a movement has so poisoned them, that is your problem and not a prejudice that football should have to pander towards. Sheesh, it's like an echo chamber in here. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
hogesar 9,676 Posted December 24, 2020 10 hours ago, Herman said: Nah mate. It's getting racism,and the levels of it still, out into the open, getting it discussed rather than just nodded at. The Kick It Out campaign is admirable but it doesn't make enough noise or anger the right people. 15 seconds per game has caused millions of debates and even more written words, whether in support or disgust. Long may it continue. To be fair, you're entirely correct. From that point of view, the politicisation of BLM has actually had two effects. The negative is that its association rightly or wrongly means that not everyone will support it, the positive is its driving significant debate and raising awareness. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Indy 3,300 Posted December 24, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, hogesar said: To be fair, you're entirely correct. From that point of view, the politicisation of BLM has actually had two effects. The negative is that its association rightly or wrongly means that not everyone will support it, the positive is its driving significant debate and raising awareness. Absolutely agree, the awareness is indeed helped by high profile sports personalities fronting it like Lewis Hamilton. I think Kick It Out never had this behind it, the tension from police brutality has bought it to the forefront and long should it be, but shouldn’t it now be used for all racism? Not just black but anti Muslim, Far East and on and on. Only educating youngsters and identifying those racists in our midst can we move forward together. Edited December 24, 2020 by Indy 3 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littleyellowbirdie 2,550 Posted December 26, 2020 (edited) On 22/12/2020 at 10:19, 1902 said: Racism can't be considered independently of other political questions, because it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It absolutely can and should be. Skin colour and views on economics and social liberalism do not go hand in hand. All of the major political parties have ethnic minorities among their MPs, yet all will have experienced racism of some sort. Black Lives Matter has a heavily left of centre economic agenda hanging onto the coat-tails of the racial one. As such, it's inappropriate that one group like BLM should be allowed to hijack the whole issue. Edited December 26, 2020 by littleyellowbirdie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheGunnShow 5,940 Posted December 26, 2020 On 24/12/2020 at 09:16, Herman said: Nah mate. It's getting racism,and the levels of it still, out into the open, getting it discussed rather than just nodded at. The Kick It Out campaign is admirable but it doesn't make enough noise or anger the right people. 15 seconds per game has caused millions of debates and even more written words, whether in support or disgust. Long may it continue. Precisely this. It triggers those who need to be triggered. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites