New Tory Leader

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

6 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

Adding it to a bill already underway hadn't helped them has it!

The second bit is the key. The rules were definitely 'red tape' and the proposal was definitely going to reduce that. That could be a good thing, it could be a bad thing- The big queation was one of balance, was the red tape a proportional means of achieving a legitimate aim, ie how much did it reduce housebuilding and what is the relative importance of housebuilding in these areas against the impact on the water courses?

This debate had focused entirely on process and rhetoric and not on the actual issue.  Does everyone who passed the tweets around actually know what eutrophication actually is?

Its like so much political debate in the twitterx world- important issues are no longer debated on their facts but how easily they can be reduced to a tribal meme. It makes for very poor policy making. And before anyone says it - this is true of all sides.

I can agree with most of BB - I think it's the way they tried to slide it in as opposed to proper rational debate on the subject that was the root of the current issue and rebuttal.

That the current rules are excessive is not in doubt but clearly adequate sewerage facilities need to be in place for new homes - and yes farms are also a huge part of the problem be they arable or livestock (I note Chicken farms on the Wye is topical)  

[Barbe bleu 826]

23 minutes ago, A Load of Squit said:

A superb example of just ignoring the facts and typing b0ll0x.

Well done.

What's the ****?  I've expressed my dissatisfaction at the way political discourse by all parties favours rhetoric and soundbites over substance and have highlighted that no one is discussing the actual issue here, just using it as a means of making generalised points. And you say its me ignoring the facts?!

If I'm ignoring the facts then please provide your analysis on nutrient levels in East Sussex rivers and the impact of the neutrality rules on housing delivery  in affected LPA areas...  And when you cannot do so come back and apologise for tellling me that I ignored the facts...

...But you won't, you'll just post some abuse.   I'm not going  to bother with this if this is the level we choose to adopt.

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

27 minutes ago, Herman said:

Is there anything the government does that Barbe won't stick up for, ffs. 

😂 Not so far, that I can recall anyway and I'm pretty sure I would have noticed!

But here's a topical one I'd love to see him have a go at https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/13/rishi-sunak-blocked-rebuild-of-hospitals-with-crumbling-concrete

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, Creative Midfielder said:

😂 Not so far, that I can recall anyway and I'm pretty sure I would have noticed!

But here's a topical one I'd love to see him have a go at https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/sep/13/rishi-sunak-blocked-rebuild-of-hospitals-with-crumbling-concrete

You know whata next? Its the Guardian. You can't believe anything they print. Even if its a fact.

It used to be that newspapers printed the news and the front page and leader page might portray the political leaning. Now its that the Mail and Express just want to cover up and the Guardian expose. And of course the Star and Sun put Ant and Dec on the front page.

Edited September 14, 2023 by keelansgrandad

[Barbe bleu 826]

11 hours ago, Herman said:

Is there anything the government does that Barbe won't stick up for, ffs. 

There's plenty I disagree with.  But only LYB puts the opposite view forward and even he is getting bored of it so there really isn't much to respond to.

I haven't heard what you think of the policy itself Herman.  You are on here calling for more housebuilding and you know a thing or two about fertiliser so should have an opinion, right?

Edited September 14, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[Herman 9,767]

16 hours ago, Herman said:

Michael Gove's speech on the environment and his actions on the environment are two completely different things. His new bill was an unnecessary change and a sop to his party funders.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stronger-protections-for-the-environment-move-closer-as-landmark-bill-takes-shape

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/sep/01/michael-gove-housing-plans-latest-divergence-promised-green-brexit

More brexitty tinged lies and dishonesty that the same people wish to wave away.

You struggle to understand why we get angry at these people. We warned you that they were not to be trusted on anything yet you cheered them on and here we are. 

 

[Barbe bleu 826]

9 hours ago, Herman said:

You struggle to understand why we get angry at these people. We warned you that they were not to be trusted on anything yet you cheered them on and here we are. 

 

I can see why you get angry. This government does a lot wrong.  But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The memification of politics by all sides means that parties never get beyond campaign mode and no one looks beyond or behind the next 90 character attack line.

Nutrient neutrality is an example (there will be many others) It should have been a highly technical and boring exercise of tweaking the balance that town planners  need to consider when looking out housing delivery proposals in a certain few areas.

What it became is a social media trend with people joyfully attacking or defending policies with no actual idea what they are fighting over and whether or not their position is actually helpful either to the environment or to house building.

Bring boring back! We have two leaders more than capable of doing that, let's let them do it.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[Herman 9,767]

You just can't get it. You're just making excuses for the epic dishonesty of this government and trying to both sides the debate. 

[duke63 542]

8 minutes ago, Barbe bleu said:

I can see why you get angry. This government does a lot wrong.  But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The memification of politics by all sides means that parties never get beyond campaign mode and no one looks beyond or behind the next 90 character attack line.

Nutrient neutrality is an example (there will be many others) It should have been a highly technical and boring exercise of tweaking the balance that town planners  need to consider when looking out housing delivery proposals in a certain few areas.

What it became is a social media trend with people joyfully attacking or defending policies with no actual idea what they are fighting over and whether or not their position is actually helpful either to the environment or to house building.

Bring boring back! We have two leaders more than capable of doing that, let's let them do it.

We need leaders and politicians who represent the people they are supposed to represent.

Not representing big business, wealthy individuals, campaign groups.

Britain is falling to pieces but people appear to blind to see that. Try travelling abroad a bit and you will soon see how far behind we are starting to look - Health service collapsing so the Government can promote private heathcare companies, no police service to protect the public, HMRC on the verge of collapse, schools, courts and hospitals falling apart because they were built for short term profit and not longevity, an obsession with house building at any cost (many of which will likely be falling part in 30 years time having seen at first hand how poorly they are built), roads with too much traffic and road surfaces in need of billions of £s to bring them up to standard, again no police on the roads so poor driving is becoming the norm.

I could go on but all we hear from politicians is tax cuts, tax cuts, tax cuts. There is a pay off from that and we are now seeing it very clearly - a country in dire need of massive investment just to bring it up to standard. 13 or so years of no infrastructure investment and the Country is falling apart.

[Herman 9,767]

For starters you don't need to water down environmental standards to build houses. What you need to do is take the country's housing needs out of the hands of a select few developers and builders whose main focus is on making profit. 

I hope that answers your question Barbe. Your free market ideology is failing the country. 

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

1 hour ago, Barbe bleu said:

I can see why you get angry. This government does a lot wrong.  But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The memification of politics by all sides means that parties never get beyond campaign mode and no one looks beyond or behind the next 90 character attack line.

Nutrient neutrality is an example (there will be many others) It should have been a highly technical and boring exercise of tweaking the balance that town planners  need to consider when looking out housing delivery proposals in a certain few areas.

What it became is a social media trend with people joyfully attacking or defending policies with no actual idea what they are fighting over and whether or not their position is actually helpful either to the environment or to house building.

Bring boring back! We have two leaders more than capable of doing that, let's let them do it.

 

1 hour ago, Herman said:

You just can't get it. You're just making excuses for the epic dishonesty of this government and trying to both sides the debate. 

You're both right - This government is a disgrace and permanently in defensive spin mode as it collapses. It's what happens when you let parasitical populists take over and it all goes pear shaped as long foretold. No adults in charge. All we hear are childish excuses.

It's like yesterday when SKS discussed some of Labour's plans for immigration - all we got from this government was 100,000. No thought, just brain dead dog whistles to their terminally thick supporters. It's not as if their own policies are working and even groups such as the Migration Observatory' are noting that 'deterrence' doesn't and can not work for fairly obvious reasons.

I actually don't think the current Labour party are in anyway complicit in degrading our politics - indeed SKS is lampooned as boring and his polices urbane and  technocratic. In reality Labour are now the sure footed professional antithesis of this debased government of all the useless dregs. Sure on the far left, some environmentalists see everything as black and white as opposed to the middle ground to find workable solutions (such as the nutrient neutrality issue). It is however the middle ground where SKS is.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[duke63 542]

This morning we even have a Government minister ( Mordaunt) berating Welsh parliament for setting a 20mph urban speed limit to protect people - not motorists or business but people walking about in their locality. If we set more 20mph limits maybe more will get off their arses and use their legs to go 1 mile down the road. People have been hoodwinked for too long by this government of populists who are actually killing the Country for the majority ( unless you are a multi millionaire and dont feel you should pay any tax).

 

 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

1 hour ago, duke63 said:

This morning we even have a Government minister ( Mordaunt) berating Welsh parliament for setting a 20mph urban speed limit to protect people - not motorists or business but people walking about in their locality. If we set more 20mph limits maybe more will get off their arses and use their legs to go 1 mile down the road. People have been hoodwinked for too long by this government of populists who are actually killing the Country for the majority ( unless you are a multi millionaire and dont feel you should pay any tax).

 

 

Perhaps they take more tax from 4 X 4s. Co-op carpark and Tesco car park full of them whenthe kids go to school and come home.

[duke63 542]

15 minutes ago, keelansgrandad said:

Perhaps they take more tax from 4 X 4s. Co-op carpark and Tesco car park full of them whenthe kids go to school and come home.

Only in the vat on purchase.
They should be taxed off the road if they are big polluters. 

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

5 hours ago, duke63 said:

This morning we even have a Government minister ( Mordaunt) berating Welsh parliament for setting a 20mph urban speed limit to protect people - not motorists or business but people walking about in their locality. If we set more 20mph limits maybe more will get off their arses and use their legs to go 1 mile down the road. People have been hoodwinked for too long by this government of populists who are actually killing the Country for the majority ( unless you are a multi millionaire and dont feel you should pay any tax).

 

 

I rather suspect that there be some unintended consequences and more costs (not the positives) from this unless the various councils quickly separate out all roads that need to be kept at 30mph i.e. all the bus major routes and main roads for starters unless you wish for busses to be even slower, more expensive and yet more delayed !

Indeed the blanket scheme strikes me as more ideology (this time from the 'left') than practical. Then again some people it seems don't realize that business, retail etc needs transport else it will go and setup elsewhere. 'F * *k' business was Johnson's idealistic expletive when reality interfered with his dreams. It seems the same is true here. Amazon and out of town business parks and retail parks must be loving it.

[horsefly 4,300]

On 14/09/2023 at 08:55, Barbe bleu said:

This debate had focused entirely on process and rhetoric and not on the actual issue.  Does everyone who passed the tweets around actually know what eutrophication actually is?

Its like so much political debate in the twitterx world- important issues are no longer debated on their facts but how easily they can be reduced to a tribal meme. It makes for very poor policy making. And before anyone says it - this is true of all sides.

 

On 14/09/2023 at 08:00, Barbe bleu said:

I cant see what difference a house really makes to nutrients getting into water courses and the eutrophication that causes.  In my mind if we are concerned about fertiliser in rivers the more obvious place to look for cuts isn't with houses but with farms.

I guess you yourself are one those people who you claim doesn't properly understand what eutrophication is, and how it is related to house building. It is the process of building the house on farm land (disturbing the earth) that significantly increases the release of damaging nutrients into watercourses. Try this article: https://www.mackoy.co.uk/news/the-impact-of-nitrate-pollution-on-housing-developments/#:~:text=These cause the soil to become excessively enriched,which is harmful to us and plant life.

[duke63 542]

2 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

I rather suspect that there be some unintended consequences and more costs (not the positives) from this unless the various councils quickly separate out all roads that need to be kept at 30mph i.e. all the bus major routes and main roads for starters unless you wish for busses to be even slower, more expensive and yet more delayed !

Indeed the blanket scheme strikes me as more ideology (this time from the 'left') than practical. Then again some people it seems don't realize that business, retail etc needs transport else it will go and setup elsewhere. 'F * *k' business was Johnson's idealistic expletive when reality interfered with his dreams. It seems the same is true here. Amazon and out of town business parks and retail parks must be loving it.

Business should never be allowed to over ride what benefits people health and happiness.

Traffic is a blot on our lives much of the time. There is too much of it and too many people are in a desperate hurry to get somewhere either because they haven't left themselves enough time or they are trying to cram too much into their lives.

I doubt much traffic travels above 20 mph much of the time anyway in urban areas.

If you car keeps a track of average speed travelled over a length of time go and check what it says and i bet it reads an average of less than 30mph.

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

1 hour ago, duke63 said:

Business should never be allowed to over ride what benefits people health and happiness.

Traffic is a blot on our lives much of the time. There is too much of it and too many people are in a desperate hurry to get somewhere either because they haven't left themselves enough time or they are trying to cram too much into their lives.

I doubt much traffic travels above 20 mph much of the time anyway in urban areas.

If you car keeps a track of average speed travelled over a length of time go and check what it says and i bet it reads an average of less than 30mph.

This is a very simplistic view. We need business (economic activity) to create the wealth to pay for the services like health that we all take for granted. We don't live in an Eden and the world doesn't owe us living however much we'd like it too.

Everything as ever is a compromise.

Edited September 15, 2023 by Yellow Fever

[Barbe bleu 826]

6 hours ago, horsefly said:

 

I guess you yourself are one those people who you claim doesn't properly understand what eutrophication is, and how it is related to house building. It is the process of building the house on farm land (disturbing the earth) that significantly increases the release of damaging nutrients into watercourses. Try this article: https://www.mackoy.co.uk/news/the-impact-of-nitrate-pollution-on-housing-developments/#:~:text=These cause the soil to become excessively enriched,which is harmful to us and plant life.

Exactly!  The debate in the 2019 article is exactly the sort of debate we need to be having. But we are not.   It's all memes, headlines, soundbites and gotchas at the expense of this sort of thing. 

The nutrient neutrality example is just that, an example. It should have been conducted as a largely technical exercise but it became a head line with people cheering on their side largely oblivious to the actual issue, and that cheering has possibly caused what was potentially an urgent and important change to get torpedoed.

No , I don't claim to be an expert. I am fully aware that housebuilding releases nutrients but knowing that alone is not really sufficient is it? The questions we need to know answers to in order to make rational decisions are:  what proportion of the impact would be caused by housebuilding if it were allowed to continue unfettered by the current rules;  how long lasting would that damage be; to what extent have houses not been built/will not be built because of the current rules- No one really knows these things because we are not asking the questions, we, and I bet all political parties, are too busy with memes .  

I dont really give a sh*t whi runs the country,  they are all the same. I just want them to make rational decisions based on boring consideration of the facts and in the light of the principles they tell the electorate they will adopt rather than make decisions based on how they think a  a 90 character gotcha on social media will play out with voters.    Sure, what I want will never happen. But nor will PR or rejoin EU.

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Barbe bleu

[duke63 542]

10 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

This is a very simplistic view. We need business (economic activity) to create the wealth to pay for the services like health that we all take for granted. We don't live in an Eden and the world doesn't owe us living however much we'd like it too.

Everything as ever is a compromise.

We are currently allowing business decisions to completely shape our way of life which is why we have global warming running out of control, **** flowing into our seas and rivers, the air we breathe being full of pollutants and the food we eat not really being food at all in many cases. 
Unless we start to reverse that then human race will not survive. Greed is destroying us. 

[Yellow Fever 3,785]

10 hours ago, Barbe bleu said:

I dont really give a sh*t whi runs the country,  they are all the same. I just want them to make rational decisions based on boring consideration of the facts and in the light of the principles they tell the electorate they will adopt rather than make decisions based on how they think a  a 90 character gotcha on social media will play out with voters.    Sure, what I want will never happen. 

This actually is the developing catastrophic failure with democracy both here and in the US. We've reached the point where its all about ignorant 'populism' be that Trump or indeed Johnson and his lackeys and not rational debate about facts.

The only long term winner I'm afraid of this debasement of democracy is China and the likes where rational 5 and 10 year development plans win out for instance with electric vehicles or solar  panel hegemony.

Unless we up our game we're going to get 'owned'.

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

16 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

This actually is the developing catastrophic failure with democracy both here and in the US. We've reached the point where its all about ignorant 'populism' be that Trump or indeed Johnson and his lackeys and not rational debate about facts.

The only long term winner I'm afraid of this debasement of democracy is China and the likes where rational 5 and 10 year development plans win out for instance with electric vehicles or solar  panel hegemony.

Unless we up our game we're going to get 'owned'.

Spot on. Can these idiots see that capitalism is failing just as conservative communism did. The belief they we will all benefit from a system where we can all fend for ourselves because we will all receive the benefits and dividends from money alone making more money is proving to be foolish. We have handed all our manufacturing away to China. They even have a major foothold in the automobile industry now.

We have sold the family jewels and now we are just borrowing to prop up a dying system. We have made wrong decisions based on romance and history such as Brexit. We have generations of older people like myself for whom they have to borrow just to pay our pensions.

We still believe we are a world power both economically and militarily just because we send a few cruise missiles to Ukraine. We have less tanks than Switzerland. We are relying on the training of our personnel.

Our health system, once the greatest state system on the planet is now in disarray because it, like RAAC, has not been maintained or analysed. I have now waited over 12 months for a minor operation.

Our vital industries such as energy, water, communications and rail have been sold off in the name of efficiency and have now become so inefficient because of the money and profits scattered across the globe. Investment in the future is minimal.

And we have a Government that is the weakest I have ever known just rolling with it and the prospect of a different Government doing very little different. Where is the change? Where is the will to accept what is wrong and try something different. Truss tried that but only by using an even more bizarre capitalist system.

 

[king canary 7,607]

Honestly a touch shocked that the Tories didn't try and make this XL Bully issue the latest front in culture war. I was picturing Braverman with one on a leash claiming 'leftist are trying to take your dogs away!'

[Barbe bleu 826]

3 hours ago, Yellow Fever said:

This actually is the developing catastrophic failure with democracy both here and in the US. We've reached the point where its all about ignorant populism

The only long term winner I'm afraid of this debasement of democracy is China and the likes where rational 5 and 10 year development plans win out for instance with electric vehicles or solar  panel hegemony.

Unless we up our game we're going to get 'owned'.

I think we need to be careful about concentrating only on the brazen populists.Those you name were clearly the most brazen with it, but to single them out implies that populism was just  a phase we have moved on from.  In my view it still exists, just in more subtle and insidious forms. It can come in policy and in silence. 

Another point on China is how good they are at story telling. Mind you we (the west) don't really help ourselves with our self-flagellation and our condescending and holier-than-thou attitudes.  These approaches might have worked when the west was the only option on the tables of other countries, but that has long since stopped being the case.

 

 

[duke63 542]

[Creative Midfielder 1,996]

Quite an interesting read ‘I saw how grotesquely unqualified so many of us were’: Rory Stewart on his decade as a Tory MP | Rory Stewart | The Guardian  from one of the tiny handful of Tory MPs who had any integrity at all and who were, of course, thrown out of the party by Johnson for exactly that reason.

[dylanisabaddog 4,922]

There is definitely something wrong with our Constitution when Civil Servants have to ask a woman in her 90's to tell the PM to behave himself 

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-66839314

 

Edited September 18, 2023 by dylanisabaddog

[dylanisabaddog 4,922]

On 17/09/2023 at 08:21, Creative Midfielder said:

Quite an interesting read ‘I saw how grotesquely unqualified so many of us were’: Rory Stewart on his decade as a Tory MP | Rory Stewart | The Guardian  from one of the tiny handful of Tory MPs who had any integrity at all and who were, of course, thrown out of the party by Johnson for exactly that reason.

Rory's podcasts with Alastair Campbell are well worth a listen. He should really be Prime Minister. Rumour has it that SKS has asked him to join the Labour Party on more than one occasion. 

[Herman 9,767]

Liz Truss all over the news today. Why the hell is she still being taken seriously?? 

[canarydan23 4,060]

4 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Rory's podcasts with Alastair Campbell are well worth a listen. He should really be Prime Minister. Rumour has it that SKS has asked him to join the Labour Party on more than one occasion. 

A posh voice and some bold statements out of office is all it takes to rewrite a whole parliamentary career.

Rory Stewart supported and voted for some appalling policies. Consistently voted against support for those on welfare, a more progressive tax system, the shifting of the tax burden onto the rich, expansion of public ownership, a banker's bonus tax, a more proportional and elected upper chamber. Whilst he actively voted for keeping power concentrated in Westminster (despite allegedly seeing how grotesquely unqualified MPs were, hmmm), phasing out secure tenancy agreements to help out those hard done by second or multiple homeowners and reducing corporation tax.

The guy is a hypocrite and only now he's out of office do we see this more humane side to him. He'll do whatever is needed to publicise Rory Stewart and feather his own nest. I don't swallow a word he says. That he would perhaps have been an improvement on the cluster****s that were May, Johsnon, Truss, but that's the equivalent of saying it's better to get punched by Carl Froch than Tyson Fury.