New Tory Leader

[Herman 9,838]

Boris Johnson would be the pub's minesweeper. 

[horsefly 4,318]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/litter-campaign-tory-mp-who-dropped-cigarette-butt-accused-of-hypocrisy/ar-BB1gBby2?ocid=msedgntp

[horsefly 4,318]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/matt-hancock-admits-only-6-voter-fraud-cases-at-last-election-as-protests-grow-over-photo-id-crackdown/ar-BB1gBioM?ocid=msedgntp

Oh dear! Hancock pontificating on voter fraud. Well I suppose he's an expert on defrauding the voter/taxpayer, as his chums will attest from the comfort of their new million pound homes.

[Fen Canary 874]

5 hours ago, horsefly said:

You have basically just posted the same thing again. Sleaze may not be new, but never in living memory has the prime minister himself been so mired in it that he is the subject of several official investigations into his corrupt behaviour. Johnson may well be getting the benefit of the doubt under the current circunstances, but history suggests that it won't survive long if other factors erode the public's trust and happiness. And as I said, there is a veritable sh*t storm of fall-out from brexit, covid, and official inquiries awaiting this government. In the story I linked over half of those polled thought Johnson is seriously sleazy; we'll see how that affects their voting intentions when the Sh*t storm descends.

We’ll see. I don’t doubt Johnson is a charlatan, but most voters already knew that, and it didn’t worry them enough to prevent him winning a landslide and still be making gains now. People such as yourself try and convince themselves it’s a big deal, and will spell the end of the evil Tories, unfortunately I think you’ll find most people simply don’t care about who paid for Boris’ wallpaper 

[horsefly 4,318]

1 hour ago, Fen Canary said:

We’ll see. I don’t doubt Johnson is a charlatan, but most voters already knew that, and it didn’t worry them enough to prevent him winning a landslide and still be making gains now. People such as yourself try and convince themselves it’s a big deal, and will spell the end of the evil Tories, unfortunately I think you’ll find most people simply don’t care about who paid for Boris’ wallpaper 

What voters will worry about most of all will be the economic destruction caused by brexit. They will worry about the job losses caused by the removal of furlough. They will be angered by inquiry findings that will show the bungled handling of the Covid crisis caused thousands of unnecessary deaths. They will be angered by inquiry findings that will show incompetent and corrupt use of taxpayer's money to line the pockets of Tory chums. And as all these factors (and others) combine to cause growing discontent with a Tory government's mismanagement of the country, Boris Johnson's corrupt behaviour and compulsive lying will no longer wear the garb of a lovable buffoon but be exposed as the naked selfishness of a crook willing to bring the honour of the most important office in the land into egregious disrepute for the sake of a few quid. You may wish to characterise recent revelations as trifling concerns about who paid for Johnson's wallpaper; luckily the inquiries into those affairs will not mischaracterise them in this shallow way. They will be focused upon the potentially criminal activity of money being stuffed into Johnson's back pocket in return for future favour and influence. The Electoral Commission and the Parliamentary Standards Committee will act according to legal principle and not voter bias, and that will render Johnson's "charm" irrelevant.

[Herman 9,838]

Judging the Queen's speech an Orban like ****hole is definitely on its way. Well done Brexwits. 👍

[Fen Canary 874]

5 hours ago, horsefly said:

What voters will worry about most of all will be the economic destruction caused by brexit. They will worry about the job losses caused by the removal of furlough. They will be angered by inquiry findings that will show the bungled handling of the Covid crisis caused thousands of unnecessary deaths. They will be angered by inquiry findings that will show incompetent and corrupt use of taxpayer's money to line the pockets of Tory chums. And as all these factors (and others) combine to cause growing discontent with a Tory government's mismanagement of the country, Boris Johnson's corrupt behaviour and compulsive lying will no longer wear the garb of a lovable buffoon but be exposed as the naked selfishness of a crook willing to bring the honour of the most important office in the land into egregious disrepute for the sake of a few quid. You may wish to characterise recent revelations as trifling concerns about who paid for Johnson's wallpaper; luckily the inquiries into those affairs will not mischaracterise them in this shallow way. They will be focused upon the potentially criminal activity of money being stuffed into Johnson's back pocket in return for future favour and influence. The Electoral Commission and the Parliamentary Standards Committee will act according to legal principle and not voter bias, and that will render Johnson's "charm" irrelevant.

We were supposed to have had numerous recessions and emergency budgets due to Brexit already, and none so far have materialised.

Due to the worldwide effect of the pandemic I don’t doubt an economic slowdown is on its way, but you’ll be hard pressed to blame it on our withdrawal from the EU as most other nations will be hit exactly the same as the UK.

Our death toll per capita isn’t that excessive anymore, there are numerous countries that have worse rates than the UK has now so I can’t see any major backlash there.

I think you’re pinning your hopes on this damaging the Tories simply because Labour currently look incompetent and incredibly unlikely to regain power, and it’s people like yourself who need to take the blame for that fact. The perception you and Corbyns fan club in general have created around the party with the constant attacks and social media pile ons has left them unelectable in large areas of the country

[kick it off 1,956]

Just now, Fen Canary said:

We were supposed to have had numerous recessions and emergency budgets due to Brexit already, and none so far have materialised.

Due to the worldwide effect of the pandemic I don’t doubt an economic slowdown is on its way, but you’ll be hard pressed to blame it on our withdrawal from the EU as most other nations will be hit exactly the same as the UK.

This line of thinking is EXACTLY why the Tories will win the next election. The pandemic has provided enough cover for the government to hide the Brexit economic fallout behind, and people like Fen will buy whatever snake oil Johnson sells them. 

[Fen Canary 874]

3 minutes ago, kick it off said:

This line of thinking is EXACTLY why the Tories will win the next election. The pandemic has provided enough cover for the government to hide the Brexit economic fallout behind, and people like Fen will buy whatever snake oil Johnson sells them. 

We were supposed to have required an emergency budget, the FTSE collapsed and a major economic downturn the day after the vote, which never happened. We were told the same again after the EU elections, the general election and when we finally left the EU, again none of it happened.

I’m sure one day we will enter a recession again, it’s how the world economy works. However you can’t keep predicting numerous recessions then saying “see, I told you so” when one finally arrives, especially after the COVID lockdowns will have much more effect and cause major damage to almost all the worlds leading economies. Face it, the economic annihilation you were hoping for simply didn’t happen, and is less likely to do so as time goes on and everybody gets used to the new trading situation 

[horsefly 4,318]

32 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

Due to the worldwide effect of the pandemic I don’t doubt an economic slowdown is on its way, but you’ll be hard pressed to blame it on our withdrawal from the EU as most other nations will be hit exactly the same as the UK.

I'm afraid this is simply wrong.You need to go on-line and check the number of SMEs and other businesses that are complaining that a drastic drop in exports is entirely down to brexit. Only last week I posted a report from the Food and Drink Federation that showed the dairy industry had lost £1.1bn in export trading with the EU since January due to brexit regulations (96% down). These are real figures not speculative nonsense. Similarly it is brexit regulations that have decimated exports from UK fishermen. I suggest you go to the Road Haulage Association site too and see what they have to say. Brexit regulations are the issue, not Covid regulations.

Edited May 11, 2021 by horsefly

[Herman 9,838]

10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

We were supposed to have required an emergency budget, the FTSE collapsed and a major economic downturn the day after the vote, which never happened. We were told the same again after the EU elections, the general election and when we finally left the EU, again none of it happened.

I’m sure one day we will enter a recession again, it’s how the world economy works. However you can’t keep predicting numerous recessions then saying “see, I told you so” when one finally arrives, especially after the COVID lockdowns will have much more effect and cause major damage to almost all the worlds leading economies. Face it, the economic annihilation you were hoping for simply didn’t happen, and is less likely to do so as time goes on and everybody gets used to the new trading situation 

It's the same failed arguments and non-truths over and over again.

Mark Carney did enough to prop up the economy after the referendum. Nobody I can remember said the FTSE would collapse but the pound did and it has never fully recovered.The second sentence is simply not true.

 

[Fen Canary 874]

If you want to discuss Brexit do it over on the Brexit thread. This type of pointless back and forth has been going on for 5 years, and so far not a single person has changed their opinion on the matter so we’ll just agree to disagree and move on 

[horsefly 4,318]

10 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

If you want to discuss Brexit do it over on the Brexit thread. This type of pointless back and forth has been going on for 5 years, and so far not a single person has changed their opinion on the matter so we’ll just agree to disagree and move on 

The effects of brexit are completely relevant to the career of a Tory leader who lied about it to the voting public in order to cheat his way into power. The disastrous economic consequences of brexit will undoubtedly remain very significant given Johnson's claims that it is a wonderful deal. I'm afraid your claims in the last few posts have been soundly refuted and you can't escape that fact by simply expressing your boredom with the issue.You are not obliged to respond to any other person's post on the matter of Johnson's culpability for the brexit disaster, but the idea you have any authority to demand others stop discussing the issue is both absurd and arrogant.

[kick it off 1,956]

51 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

We were supposed to have required an emergency budget, the FTSE collapsed and a major economic downturn the day after the vote, which never happened. We were told the same again after the EU elections, the general election and when we finally left the EU, again none of it happened.

I’m sure one day we will enter a recession again, it’s how the world economy works. However you can’t keep predicting numerous recessions then saying “see, I told you so” when one finally arrives, especially after the COVID lockdowns will have much more effect and cause major damage to almost all the worlds leading economies. Face it, the economic annihilation you were hoping for simply didn’t happen, and is less likely to do so as time goes on and everybody gets used to the new trading situation 

So what you're saying is because the economic world didn't collapse, you will suck up the fact we're in a much worse economic situation (and would be without Covid) than we were before and not question that?

Firstly, I didn't hope for economic annhilation, nobody with a brain would.

Secondly, you can't cherry pick the worst forecasts that didn't come true, and say because they didn't immediately happen to the extreme extent a few people forecast that everything is great. Apply the same logic to the other side. Do we have £350million extra per week for the NHS? No. Therefore with your logic on both sides of the ball, Brexit has no positive impact at all and no negative impact at all and therefore it's a complete wash with a negligible outcome either way. You're making stupid arguments which have no merit. 

Thirdly, a major economic downturn was predicted and was starting to come to pass before covid, there was marked downturn in trade, investment, job creation and national income, increased inflation etc etc and the effects will continue to linger and become more pronounced as other economies start to bounce back from Covid and we're lagging behind, trying to strike trade deals with St Kitts and Nevis and Papua New Guinea..... and you'll be saying "Yeah but Covid" the whole time it happens.

[horsefly 4,318]

15 minutes ago, kick it off said:

So what you're saying is because the economic world didn't collapse, you will suck up the fact we're in a much worse economic situation (and would be without Covid) than we were before and not question that?

Firstly, I didn't hope for economic annhilation, nobody with a brain would.

Secondly, you can't cherry pick the worst forecasts that didn't come true, and say because they didn't immediately happen to the extreme extent a few people forecast that everything is great. Apply the same logic to the other side. Do we have £350million extra per week for the NHS? No. Therefore with your logic on both sides of the ball, Brexit has no positive impact at all and no negative impact at all and therefore it's a complete wash with a negligible outcome either way. You're making stupid arguments which have no merit. 

Thirdly, a major economic downturn was predicted and was starting to come to pass before covid, there was marked downturn in trade, investment, job creation and national income, increased inflation etc etc and the effects will continue to linger and become more pronounced as other economies start to bounce back from Covid and we're lagging behind, trying to strike trade deals with St Kitts and Nevis and Papua New Guinea..... and you'll be saying "Yeah but Covid" the whole time it happens.

Yep! I'm afraid the RWNJs use the same glaringly obvious tactic for almost every issue: set up an obviously absurd straw man argument that no one in reality has actually presented, knock it down, and claim victory. Sadly for them no one is remotely impressed or fooled by such an immature approach.

Edited May 11, 2021 by horsefly

[Fen Canary 874]

I’ll leave you two to congratulate and fawn over each other about how much more intelligent and noble you are than all those stupid, ignorant, racist Brexit voters, who only voted the way they did because of a bus and Murdoch.

As I say 5 years of these arguments and the only outcome has been that we’ve left the EU and pro EU parties have been failing at the ballot box, and I don’t know a single person who has changed their mind.

Personally I want Labour to become relevant again, as one party states are rarely a good outcome. However they never will be while they are trying to pander to people such as yourself, because while you make a lot of noise on social media, there simply aren’t enough of you to be an electoral force. The sooner Starmer realises this and removes all traces of Corbyn and Momentum, stops supporting divisive movements such as BLM, or apologising for visiting black churches running a food bank, the better his chances of toppling Boris will be.

[horsefly 4,318]

11 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I’ll leave you two to congratulate and fawn over each other about how much more intelligent and noble you are than all those stupid, ignorant, racist Brexit voters, who only voted the way they did because of a bus and Murdoch.

As I say 5 years of these arguments and the only outcome has been that we’ve left the EU and pro EU parties have been failing at the ballot box, and I don’t know a single person who has changed their mind.

Personally I want Labour to become relevant again, as one party states are rarely a good outcome. However they never will be while they are trying to pander to people such as yourself, because while you make a lot of noise on social media, there simply aren’t enough of you to be an electoral force. The sooner Starmer realises this and removes all traces of Corbyn and Momentum, stops supporting divisive movements such as BLM, or apologising for visiting black churches running a food bank, the better his chances of toppling Boris will be.

I rest my case

[horsefly 4,318]

Meanwhile Johnson seems to be determined to destroy the countryside beloved by many Norfolk folk:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/johnson-s-planning-laws-an-utter-disaster-say-countryside-campaigners/ar-BB1gCd6V?ocid=msedgntp

I expect Jenrick might need to contemplate opening a Swiss bank account to cope with the "donations" rolling in from developers.

[Fen Canary 874]

5 hours ago, Herman said:

Judging the Queen's speech an Orban like ****hole is definitely on its way. Well done Brexwits. 👍

Which bits don’t you agree with Herman? I think the parts about getting tech compatible regulate “harmful” content is a bit vague and potentially censorious, and I’m not a fan of the extra controls regarding protests but apart from that it all looked fairly standard to me 

[Fen Canary 874]

19 minutes ago, horsefly said:

Meanwhile Johnson seems to be determined to destroy the countryside beloved by many Norfolk folk:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/johnson-s-planning-laws-an-utter-disaster-say-countryside-campaigners/ar-BB1gCd6V?ocid=msedgntp

I expect Jenrick might need to contemplate opening a Swiss bank account to cope with the "donations" rolling in from developers.

So you want house prices to fall to reasonable levels, but you don’t want to open up land to build more houses? 

[Herman 9,838]

Making it harder to vote. Making it harder to protest. Making it harder to legally challenge the government. Making it easier for Johnson to call an election whenever he wants. Small but important steps to authoritarian governance. You may like it but I'm sure your ancestors didn't fight against it only for it to be nodded through.

[Fen Canary 874]

7 minutes ago, Herman said:

Making it harder to vote. Making it harder to protest. Making it harder to legally challenge the government. Making it easier for Johnson to call an election whenever he wants. Small but important steps to authoritarian governance. You may like it but I'm sure your ancestors didn't fight against it only for it to be nodded through.

I’ve got no problem with the going back to the old system of the government calling the election date. The final weeks of parliament leading up to the 2019 was just shambolic.

I don’t think taking a form of ID to the ballot box is particularly arduous either. Calling it authoritarian I believe is a bit of a stretch.

I also agree with keeping the courts out of political decisions as much as possible. It’s the courts job to implement the laws set by the elected government, not to dictate to the government what it can do in my opinion. We keep it this way because our MPs are elected and answerable to the public, and if we don’t like the laws MPs pass we can elect different ones. We can’t do this with judges, and I wouldn’t want a politicised judiciary personally.

I agree the protest laws are an overreaction to the BLM riots over the summer and aren’t needed, and as I say letting tech companies decide what constitutes harmful content I’m uncomfortable with, but apart from that the rest I’m ok with 

[TheGunnShow 6,023]

Fact is, there's very little electoral fraud on the part of voters, as a percentage, either in the USA or in the UK. This is an appeal to democracy which is actually quite the opposite, seeking to disenfranchise where possible.

Here's a UK source: 2019 electoral fraud data | Electoral Commission

And here's a US source: Voter fraud used to be rampant. Now it’s an anomaly. (nationalgeographic.com)

Edited May 11, 2021 by TheGunnShow
Adding sources.

[Herman 9,838]

Do you work for CCHQ? You seem to follow the script awfully well.

The ID is fixing a problem that doesn't exist and will disenfranchise younger, poorer and more urban based people. (I am sure it's part of this culture war bollox as well, feeding into this narrative that the tories only lose areas because of fraud. Exactly what the Trumpists are doing.)

The judiciary follow the laws that are already set. It is not politicised no matter what the Vote Leave government tells us.

[horsefly 4,318]

35 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So you want house prices to fall to reasonable levels, but you don’t want to open up land to build more houses? 

No I don't want precious parts of the countryside to be sacrificed to property developers who want to build highly expensive houses on crammed estates. I've seen enough of those in Norfolk already. There are huge numbers of sites already purchased by developers that have had nothing built on them for many years. Once those have been built on then the government should be looking to develop inner city and brownfield sites. But we all know that developers are not interested in anything other than prime countryside to maximise their profits. Of course it is no coincidence whatsoever that property developers are major contributors to Tory Party funds.

[TheGunnShow 6,023]

43 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

So you want house prices to fall to reasonable levels, but you don’t want to open up land to build more houses? 

Brownfield sites should be an opening gambit rather than more urban sprawl. Now it's a bit easier in theory where I live, up here in Bolton, as we still have a fair few Victorian mills that can be converted, with some effort, into large apartment blocks. Indeed, I myself live in one of those apartments. A large one just away from the train station is in the middle of being converted. Looks excellent, but could be a shade overpriced, but we will see.

Also, with increasing amounts of shopping being done online, expect town centres to feature more mixed accommodation instead of being largely commercial.

[horsefly 4,318]

Guess what Johnson once said about ID cards:

"“If I am ever asked,” Boris Johnson once wrote of ID cards, “on the streets of London, or in any other venue, public or private, to produce my ID card as evidence that I am who I say I am, when I have done nothing wrong and am simply ambling along and breathing God’s fresh air like any other freeborn Englishman, then I will take that card out of my wallet and physically eat it in the presence of whatever emanation of the state has demanded I produce it.”

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/other/johnson-the-civil-libertarian-wants-to-have-his-voter-id-card-and-eat-it/ar-BB1gC0hm?ocid=uxbndlbing

Edited May 11, 2021 by horsefly

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, horsefly said:

Of course it is no coincidence whatsoever that property developers are major contributors to Tory Party funds.

Laughable really how you of all people can bemoan politicians for making money out of increased infrastructure which is mainly caused by the mass immigration you approve of.

You can't have one without the other, coco.

[Jools 584]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

Do you work for CCHQ? You seem to follow the script awfully well.

The ID is fixing a problem that doesn't exist and will disenfranchise younger, poorer and more urban based people. (I am sure it's part of this culture war bollox as well, feeding into this narrative that the tories only lose areas because of fraud. Exactly what the Trumpists are doing.)

The judiciary follow the laws that are already set. It is not politicised no matter what the Vote Leave government tells us.

Anybody can obtain free photo ID from their local authority --- Fifteen quid can fund a photo ID, ffs...

The only people for whom this will make voting more difficult are those who have no right to vote and those who love voting so much they like to do it more than once 😉

 

Sir Wan Kier and the Labour Party will never get the message 👍

Edited May 11, 2021 by Jools

[horsefly 4,318]

49 minutes ago, Jools said:

Anybody can obtain free photo ID from their local authority --- Fifteen quid can fund a photo ID, ffs...

The only people for whom this will make voting more difficult are those who have no right to vote and those who love voting so much they like to do it more than once 😉

 

Sir Wan Kier and the Labour Party will never get the message 👍

FFS dumbo the issue isn't about the cost. Jesus Christ!!!