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urdie_Canary

Poor loan signings again.

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Too many people think getting players in is like going to Argos (:classic_laugh:) & buying a telly. 

No guarantees. No certainties. And certainly no money back.

It's ALWAYS a gamble, & it's a question of how much you're prepared to gamble, what the risk/reward is.

Unless you're gambling with other people's money ...

 

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1 minute ago, ron obvious said:

Too many people think getting players in is like going to Argos (:classic_laugh:) & buying a telly. 

No guarantees. No certainties. And certainly no money back.

It's ALWAYS a gamble, & it's a question of how much you're prepared to gamble, what the risk/reward is.

Unless you're gambling with other people's money ...

 

I'm always reminded of a talk that John Bond did when I was a college, he said buying players can be a bit like being a princess, you have to kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince. ūüėÄ

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13 minutes ago, ron obvious said:

How much is Byram worth?

 

I don't know- but are you saying if we'd have spent £30m we wouldn't have signed Byram?

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14 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

So if another Premier League club was to come in for Byram right now what do you think the asking price would be?

Not sure- I'd assume about £5m. He's been solid but has a torrid injury history, hence him being available for £750k and nearly moving to the Championship before we came in.

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33 minutes ago, king canary said:

I don't know- but are you saying if we'd have spent £30m we wouldn't have signed Byram?

Who knows? probably not, as we'd have wanted an expensive 'certainty' instead. Well you would.

And if he's worth £5m (conservative for a FB who looks at home in the PL) then we've 'squandered' £3m on the others, of whom I'd have said Roberts has turned out  a complete waste (& then only because players like Todd turned out so well).

 

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44 minutes ago, king canary said:

Not sure- I'd assume about £5m. He's been solid but has a torrid injury history, hence him being available for £750k and nearly moving to the Championship before we came in.

I'd say £5 million is pretty low for a Premier League full back myself.  

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2 hours ago, ron obvious said:

Who knows? probably not, as we'd have wanted an expensive 'certainty' instead. Well you would.

And if he's worth £5m (conservative for a FB who looks at home in the PL) then we've 'squandered' £3m on the others, of whom I'd have said Roberts has turned out  a complete waste (& then only because players like Todd turned out so well).

 

And that's great if you only care about balance sheets. Doesn't change the fact that on the pitch, our signings have made next to no impact, which for me makes it a bad transfer window.

Also, I wouldn't have wanted an expensive certainty- I was happy with Byram as an inexpensive depth player in a position we lacked cover.

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2 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

I'd say £5 million is pretty low for a Premier League full back myself.  

Who knows. We think he's great but he's still a 26 year old fullback playing in the league's leakiest defence with a questionable injury history. I'd guess we won't have an issue hanging on to him if we go down.

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12 minutes ago, king canary said:

And that's great if you only care about balance sheets. Doesn't change the fact that on the pitch, our signings have made next to no impact, which for me makes it a bad transfer window.

Also, I wouldn't have wanted an expensive certainty- I was happy with Byram as an inexpensive depth player in a position we lacked cover.

In my experience money doesn't matter. Until you haven't got any.

 

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The incomings prior to last season proved to be pretty superb. I don't think anyone could argue that this season's have been anywhere near as good. The fact that we offered some £15/£16m (may have been euros) on the last day of the transfer window for some winger, who's name escapes me, seems a bit odd given our limited spending prior to that. If we had, and still have, that sum of money to spend I don't why it wasn't utilised earlier. Maybe they tried, we'll never know, but it doesn't sound a really joined up strategy in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, king canary said:

And that's great if you only care about balance sheets. Doesn't change the fact that on the pitch, our signings have made next to no impact, which for me makes it a bad transfer window.

Also, I wouldn't have wanted an expensive certainty- I was happy with Byram as an inexpensive depth player in a position we lacked cover.

So you were "happy with Byram as an inexpensive depth player in a position we lacked cover", but you weren't happy with Roberts, Fahrmann, Drmic and Amadou all of whom were inexpensive depth players in a positions where we lacked cover??? 

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19 minutes ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

So you were "happy with Byram as an inexpensive depth player in a position we lacked cover", but you weren't happy with Roberts, Fahrmann, Drmic and Amadou all of whom were inexpensive depth players in a positions where we lacked cover??? 

You don't think he could be being a bit selective so as to further his argument? Surely not :classic_laugh:

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22 hours ago, Thirsty Lizard said:

So you were "happy with Byram as an inexpensive depth player in a position we lacked cover", but you weren't happy with Roberts, Fahrmann, Drmic and Amadou all of whom were inexpensive depth players in a positions where we lacked cover??? 

I was cautiously optimistic that Amadou and Fahrmann might be upgrades rather than just depth players, as I think many were.

Depth and cover is fine, an entire window of just that when you've just been promoted isn't.

You and Ron seem to only be looking at the balance sheets and ignoring the impact (or lack thereof) on the pitch from our summer additions. So, I'll ask, are you happy that despite us struggling near the bottom of the table our new signings have combined for a whopping 19 league starts over halfway through? 10 of those are just Byram too, so Amadou, Fahrmann, Drmic and Roberts have 9 between them.

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3 minutes ago, king canary said:

I was cautiously optimistic that Amadou and Fahrmann might be upgrades rather than just depth players, as I think many were.

Depth and cover is fine, an entire window of just that when you've just been promoted isn't.

You and Ron seem to only be looking at the balance sheets and ignoring the impact (or lack thereof) on the pitch from our summer additions. So, I'll ask, are you happy that despite us struggling near the bottom of the table our new signings have combined for a whopping 19 league starts over halfway through? 10 of those are just Byram too, so Amadou, Fahrmann, Drmic and Roberts have 9 between them.

So are you saying, in your opinion that the balance sheet is ok, but our scouting is not; or that both balance sheet and our scouting are ****, or what?

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22 hours ago, Nuff Said said:

So are you saying, in your opinion that the balance sheet is ok, but our scouting is not; or that both balance sheet and our scouting are ****, or what?

1) I think our scouting is generally pretty good. I think we've seen with a couple of loan signings a slight disconnect between what Webber brings in and what Farke wants but that will always happen on occasion with a Sporting Director/Head Coach model.

2) Our balance sheet seems fine but it hugely limits what our scouting can really do. Take Drmic- we went up knowing we'd need to add some depth at the position to support/challenge Pukki. But strikers are expensive in both wages and fees (see McBurnie for £20m) and we need 3 or 4 players minimum so we have to take what we can get- an out of contract player who can't demand huge wages due to chequered injury history. 

Drmic not doing much and being injured isn't a failure of scouting- I'd imagine he's the best we could get without blowing up our budget. It's just the restrictions we're forced to work under.

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There is so much stats these days on player’s performance and video of the games that they play

other than their temperament and settling in locally there are no real excuses for signing a dud these days 

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9 minutes ago, king canary said:

1) I think our scouting is generally pretty good. I think we've seen with a couple of loan signings a slight disconnect between what Webber brings in and what Farke wants but that will always happen on occasion with a Sporting Director/Head Coach model.

2) Our balance sheet seems fine but it hugely limits what our scouting can really do. Take Drmic- we went up knowing we'd need to add some depth at the position to support/challenge Pukki. But strikers are expensive in both wages and fees (see McBurnie for £20m) and we need 3 or 4 players minimum so we have to take what we can get- an out of contract player who can't demand huge wages due to chequered injury history. 

Drmic not doing much and being injured isn't a failure of scouting- I'd imagine he's the best we could get without blowing up our budget. It's just the restrictions we're forced to work under.

Drmic wasn't injured when we signed him, he played in the last few games for Gladbach scoring twice and also played for Switzerland. He was available on a free transfer as he was out of contract, not paying a fee for an international striker is good sense no matter what your budget is.

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I think Byram’s been an incredible signing and of course all signings are gambles.

However a 1 in 5 success rate in your Summer transfer business at this stage of the season in the PL is poor, I’m not sure how people are suggesting otherwise.

We can all see the plan of what these players were acquired to do, the fact is bar Byram they haven’t fulfilled it. 

I don‚Äôt agree with the OPs sentiments that these were poor loan signings ‚Äúagain‚ÄĚ not sure we did badly in recent history, but I also think this summers transfer business as a whole is,¬†on reflection at this stage, possibly¬†the poorest we‚Äôve done for a long while.

 

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1 hour ago, A Load of Squit said:

Drmic wasn't injured when we signed him, he played in the last few games for Gladbach scoring twice and also played for Switzerland. He was available on a free transfer as he was out of contract, not paying a fee for an international striker is good sense no matter what your budget is.

I don't think I said he was injured when we signed him. This is a player though who hasn't hit double figures in starts since 13/14 according to whoscored. 

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2 hours ago, A Load of Squit said:

Drmic wasn't injured when we signed him, he played in the last few games for Gladbach scoring twice and also played for Switzerland. He was available on a free transfer as he was out of contract, not paying a fee for an international striker is good sense no matter what your budget is.

To be fair I'm not sure @king canary was really criticising the Drmic signing so much as the fact him being our only striker signing was risky because of his injury record. Was still a punt worth taking due to his pedigree, I'm sure most would think.

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51 minutes ago, Monty13 said:

I think Byram’s been an incredible signing and of course all signings are gambles.

However a 1 in 5 success rate in your Summer transfer business at this stage of the season in the PL is poor, I’m not sure how people are suggesting otherwise.

We can all see the plan of what these players were acquired to do, the fact is bar Byram they haven’t fulfilled it. 

I don‚Äôt agree with the OPs sentiments that these were poor loan signings ‚Äúagain‚ÄĚ not sure we did badly in recent history, but I also think this summers transfer business as a whole is,¬†on reflection at this stage, possibly¬†the poorest we‚Äôve done for a long while.

 

I think it may have been one of the most difficult, because to bring in proven PL players would have broken our wage structure, not to mention huge transfer fees. Look how much we're valuing our brilliant young players at - after half a season in the top division!

Farke had faith in Teemu to be an outstanding PL striker, which is what he's proven to be. Few PL clubs have more than one striker at his level, so Drmic as back up looked a decent gamble. I suspect we tried for one or two others as well, but they would necessarily not have been dead certs either.

We're trying to do the near impossible - in the short term. As is constantly reiterated, this ownership is in it for the long haul.

Personally I find the whole situation exhilarating. It's heroic. And seeing us completely outplay teams who've spent tens of millions on squads is fabulous.

D'you know what? I don't really care about winning per se. Walloping the Blind School holds no appeal for me. The only reason to keep winning is to keep on competing against the best, to pit your wits, skill, courage & character against the best, to test yourself to the limit.

I'd rather see us clinging on in the PL, failing sometimes because the opposition is just simply too good, beating others sometimes when it all comes together - so long as we give it our best - rather than smashing the PNEs of the Champs, or, God help us, losing to Lincoln City :classic_tongue:.

So I want to be in this league for as many seasons as possible; the question is how we do that in the long term, & if that means risking relegation from the PL sometimes & having the ability to retain a promotion winning squad rather trying to buy short term success & long term failure then sobeit.

 

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1 hour ago, ron obvious said:

I think it may have been one of the most difficult, because to bring in proven PL players would have broken our wage structure, not to mention huge transfer fees. Look how much we're valuing our brilliant young players at - after half a season in the top division!

Farke had faith in Teemu to be an outstanding PL striker, which is what he's proven to be. Few PL clubs have more than one striker at his level, so Drmic as back up looked a decent gamble. I suspect we tried for one or two others as well, but they would necessarily not have been dead certs either.

We're trying to do the near impossible - in the short term. As is constantly reiterated, this ownership is in it for the long haul.

Personally I find the whole situation exhilarating. It's heroic. And seeing us completely outplay teams who've spent tens of millions on squads is fabulous.

D'you know what? I don't really care about winning per se. Walloping the Blind School holds no appeal for me. The only reason to keep winning is to keep on competing against the best, to pit your wits, skill, courage & character against the best, to test yourself to the limit.

I'd rather see us clinging on in the PL, failing sometimes because the opposition is just simply too good, beating others sometimes when it all comes together - so long as we give it our best - rather than smashing the PNEs of the Champs, or, God help us, losing to Lincoln City :classic_tongue:.

So I want to be in this league for as many seasons as possible; the question is how we do that in the long term, & if that means risking relegation from the PL sometimes & having the ability to retain a promotion winning squad rather trying to buy short term success & long term failure then sobeit.

 

I’m not sure we are on the same page Ron, I don’t want us risking the clubs finances or long term stability.

My point wasn’t we should have bought in Proven PL players, my point was we didn’t gamble much this summer and we lost on all but one.

How many proven Championship players did we buy last season or the one before?

I, like you, greatly admire the team we have put together over the last two seasons and are watching this season.

I’m just disappointed our recruitment seems to have been such a failure this summer considering we put eggs in so few baskets and only brought in two of our own.

I wouldn’t mind if we had brought in players of the like of McClean, Emi, Trybull, Vrancic, Leitner, Pukki, Zimmerman, Stiepermann etc. when we got them and they mostly hadn’t made the grade.

But we seemed to do the barest of minimum of business, only two of which were permanent, and its neither really helped us this year or provided potential for the future.

If we stay up or go down our best talent is unfortunately going to be sought after. A few new players with potential might not have stepped up straight away or they might have, either way they’d still be working and waiting to replace what we are likely to lose in the future, they’d be assets and they’d be ours.

I think we could have afforded a few gambles looking for the next City stars without breaking the bank, this team didn’t.

 

 

 

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Monty, I suppose my main point was that it's more difficult to bring in players of a much higher quality than before.  McClean, Emi, Trybull, Vrancic, Leitner, Pukki, Zimmerman, Stiepermann were gambles for the Champ., so our gambles would have had to have been at a far higher level - & at much higher expense - than those, otherwise it's pointless, because we already had them! 

Buying a clutch of players & hoping some'll work at Champs level is a far less risky prospect than paying for similar players with PL potential.

Amadou's probably a good example of the sort of player we are looking at. He may yet make it, but he certainly doesn't look the finished article - & he'd cost a lot more than a Christoph (or a Teemu!) if he did work out.

It would've been nice to have taken a chance on a couple more players, but I think it gets disproportionately harder to find them as you progress. And you never know, the window's only just opened ...

 

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I still have hopes for Drmic. I think there's a really good player locked in there somewhere. Idah's progression is encouraging. Byram has been brilliant. We were always only ever going to sign raw players with potential. Give them a chance to develop and grow.

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4 minutes ago, Michael Starr said:

I still have hopes for Drmic. I think there's a really good player locked in there somewhere. Idah's progression is encouraging. Byram has been brilliant. We were always only ever going to sign raw players with potential. Give them a chance to develop and grow.

Being as half our new signings for the first team are on season long loans I don't think we have time to let them develop- you only bring a player in on that kind of deal for an instant impact.

I agree there may be a good player in there with Drmic, the question is can he stay fit enough to show it?

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Emi Buendia - Major success
Moritz Leitner - Ok
Teemu Pukki - Unbelievable success
Marco Stiepermann - Great in the Championship
Mario Vrancic - Great in the championship some promise in Premiership recently
Tom Trybull - Decent
Christoph Zimmerman -Major success
Onel Hernandez -Success
Tim Krul - Been great this season
Sam Byram- too early to say
Grant Hanley - jury is out but showing signs of a uplift in form
Kenny Mclean - good but inconsistant
Jordan Rhodes - good for morale / did a job as back up
Josip Drmic - No impact so far / injured
Ralf Fährmann- No impact so far / injured
Patrick Roberts - Did not work out
Ibrahim Amadou - Not great so far
James Husband - not good enough for championship
Sean Raggett  - not good enough for championship
Marcel Franke  - not good enough for championship
Felix Passlack - not good enough for championship
Philip Heise - not good enough for championship
Dennis Srbeny - not good enough for championship
Marley Watkins - not good enough for championship

Ben Marshall - not good enough for championship

About a 40% success rate?

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