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ricardo

Ricardo's report AGM 2019

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9 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Indeed, I think most people have seen my stats on this point. Increasing population may fill the gap long term but I am dubious that we need anything bigger than 35k long term.

And I also rate it happening anytime soon as very long odds.

35k seems about right for the next expansion.

When I first came to Carrow road in the late 90s I think the attendances were around 14k in a stadium that held around 21k. 

If some money from seasons such as this are being put aside for a future build (thus avoiding future debt) I can honestly see it happening in 3 years or so if we can get a couple more seasons in top flight

Edited by Hillhead

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4 minutes ago, ricardo said:

Indeed, I think most people have seen my stats on this point. Increasing population may fill the gap long term but I am dubious that we need anything bigger than 35k long term.

And I also rate it happening anytime soon as very long odds.

Agreed with the size. The recent game V Watford shew that even if we had a 100000 seats we would have still only sold 27000. In the EPL as well you can only sell 3000 away tickets, meaning we would need to find another 8000 fans to fill the ground. Ok against Liverpool and Man Utd ( even if most were away supporters ) but won’t happen re Watford, Burnley ect unless a vital end of season game. 

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47 minutes ago, Hillhead said:

10 years ago we were a league 1 team. There were 44 teams above us by default.

The board want us in a position that as and when we do fall out of the premier league we are one of the front runners to get back into it with a real shot at a top 6 championship finish most seasons. 

That's not lacking ambition that's a goal that the club and foundations can be built towards.

I remember when QPR survived with us in 2012 their fans genuinely thought they'd go on to become a champions League club with the board they had at the time and a new stadium/training ground on the way. All that money spent and where are they now?

In the 'Top' 26....?

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1 minute ago, Well b back said:

Agreed with the size. The recent game V Watford shew that even if we had a 100000 seats we would have still only sold 27000.

No. We'd certainly have many more season ticket holders as well as more sales through greater availability. 

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1 hour ago, ricardo said:

All I can say to that GP, is there was adequate time to ask those questions but they weren't asked. In fact we finished earlier than usual when the questions dried up.

Did anyone ask if they intend raising the season ticket prices for 2020/21 regardless of which league we're in?......

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3 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Hence the 'question mark'.....Thanks Google meister......

Hence me answering you. Happy to help.

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17 minutes ago, Mello Yello said:

Did anyone ask if they intend raising the season ticket prices for 2020/21 regardless of which league we're in?......

No, but they didnt ask if Delia was voting for Corbyn either.

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5 minutes ago, ricardo said:

No, but they didnt ask if Delia was voting for Corbyn either.

She obviously is so i expect season tickets to be free next season.

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Strange there is such negativity about our ability to fill a larger stadium. I would say it is essential if we are not to lose out on a generation of supporters. 

I regularly stood at games with attendances in excess of 35,000 in the 1970's when the population of Norfolk was significantly lower than it is now. We could clearly fill a 40,000 stadium for 6 or 7 Premier League games and if we were looking at 35,000 we would probably fill it for half of the Premier League games. 

The most important factor is long term support. We want to be in a position where people can get tickets to take children to games. They are the supporters of tomorrow and as a business we need to get them when they're young. 

Ricardo, was anything said about safe standing? 

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Just now, ricardo said:

No, but they didnt ask if Delia was voting for Corbyn either.

Maybe the first 3 rows attending the AGM are more left wing than what's attached to an Airbus 380......

Anyway, it sounds like the AGM went well for the board, so now it's back to performances on the pitch and to drag us out of the bottom 3......and after mid December, Corbyn to disappear up his own hoop......

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1 minute ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Strange there is such negativity about our ability to fill a larger stadium. I would say it is essential if we are not to lose out on a generation of supporters. 

I regularly stood at games with attendances in excess of 35,000 in the 1970's when the population of Norfolk was significantly lower than it is now. We could clearly fill a 40,000 stadium for 6 or 7 Premier League games and if we were looking at 35,000 we would probably fill it for half of the Premier League games. 

The most important factor is long term support. We want to be in a position where people can get tickets to take children to games. They are the supporters of tomorrow and as a business we need to get them when they're young. 

Ricardo, was anything said about safe standing? 

My school teacher used to get tickets through the club (kids for a quid?) And with the help of a couple of parents would often take around a dozen of us to the games where we always seemed to sit in block A of the Barclay. ~17 or so years later one of that group is now taking his son to games and i'm sure neither of them would be going today if it wasn't for the cheap tickets all those years ago. 

Need to get the next generation hooked!

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The club really need to keep the core 22+K season ticket holders. I would imagine many might be choosy about what matches they might go to if we spend any length of time in the Championship (shut up going on about ambition). And any increase in the stadium capacity would give them the option or being choosy.

That might not be true of course. So expansion is a good idea bearing in mind the willingness of the club to use the ground for concerts etc and the willingness of people to pay silly money to say live acts.

I would have thought another 5K would be enough for now. Should Norwich become an expanding City and the attraction of football be worth further expansion then maybe a complete new ground with its accompanying retail and leisure would be better.

Anyway, thanks Ricardo. A sensible report about the AGM. Some threaten manning the barricades and then don't go but still moan.

But as the soap manufacturer said, that's life boy.

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41 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Strange there is such negativity about our ability to fill a larger stadium. I would say it is essential if we are not to lose out on a generation of supporters. 

I regularly stood at games with attendances in excess of 35,000 in the 1970's when the population of Norfolk was significantly lower than it is now. We could clearly fill a 40,000 stadium for 6 or 7 Premier League games and if we were looking at 35,000 we would probably fill it for half of the Premier League games. 

The most important factor is long term support. We want to be in a position where people can get tickets to take children to games. They are the supporters of tomorrow and as a business we need to get them when they're young. 

Ricardo, was anything said about safe standing? 

How many games with attendances over 35,000?

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1 hour ago, Hillhead said:

No. We'd certainly have many more season ticket holders as well as more sales through greater availability. 

Not totally convinced ie had last year finished with us in mid table not sure if we would have sold more going by the comments the year before. Keelans grandad makes a good point though re events that our commercial dept are clearly inviting in would be worth more and more attractive. That point from a money point of view in my head now makes it more likely, I just hope it’s not at the expense of a noticeable amount of empty seats on a Saturday afternoon.

By the way I hope you are right.

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5 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

How many games with attendances over 35,000?

Yep. I remember few games like that the semi final league cup against Chelsea being one. You also those days had no Sky ect meaning in the main you supported your local team. That is no longer the case, with huge numbers of kids preferring to watch their team Liverpool, Man Utd, Barcelona ect on TV rather than associate themselves with our wonderful club. Football is a different game now. Look at Villa, full ground now they are in the EPL, but lots of empty seats in the last couple of seasons and they have a huge catchment and following compared to us. As I said before hope I am wrong.

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1 hour ago, Well b back said:

Agreed with the size. The recent game V Watford shew that even if we had a 100000 seats we would have still only sold 27000. In the EPL as well you can only sell 3000 away tickets, meaning we would need to find another 8000 fans to fill the ground. Ok against Liverpool and Man Utd ( even if most were away supporters ) but won’t happen re Watford, Burnley ect unless a vital end of season game. 

The Watford game had over 27,000 for probably the least glamorous fixture of the season on a cold winter evening when it was on Sky. I'm not sure what your point is?

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2 hours ago, Well b back said:

...so even if it was cheap why specifically buy the land now if it was not going to be used as other than our stadium this as he said at the consultation is waste land.

I believe it was potentially what is known as ransom land. In other words, when the owner knows we need it to do a planned expansion they jack up the price as they'd have us over a barrel, if it's available now then get it now so you don't pay more when you actually need it.

I think the most satisfying thing about it is that it implies they are not even considering moving to a new site (sorry Paul).

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3 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Yep. I remember few games like that the semi final league cup against Chelsea being one. You also those days had no Sky ect meaning in the main you supported your local team. That is no longer the case, with huge numbers of kids preferring to watch their team Liverpool, Man Utd, Barcelona ect on TV rather than associate themselves with our wonderful club. Football is a different game now. Look at Villa, full ground now they are in the EPL, but lots of empty seats in the last couple of seasons and they have a huge catchment and following compared to us. As I said before hope I am wrong.

Greater Birmingham has a population of 3.5 million, but has six (possibly seven) professional clubs. Norfolk and Waveney have a population of over a million with one professional club. Yes, Villa take a larger chunk of that population than the others (and clearly have a bigger support than us, but the catchment area argument is a bit of a red herring.

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13 minutes ago, cornish sam said:

I believe it was potentially what is known as ransom land. In other words, when the owner knows we need it to do a planned expansion they jack up the price as they'd have us over a barrel, if it's available now then get it now so you don't pay more when you actually need it.

I think the most satisfying thing about it is that it implies they are not even considering moving to a new site (sorry Paul).

Who was that mentalist who suggested we could move up to the UEA and kept banging on about 'peppercorn rent'?

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26 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Yep. I remember few games like that the semi final league cup against Chelsea being one. You also those days had no Sky ect meaning in the main you supported your local team. That is no longer the case, with huge numbers of kids preferring to watch their team Liverpool, Man Utd, Barcelona ect on TV rather than associate themselves with our wonderful club. Football is a different game now. Look at Villa, full ground now they are in the EPL, but lots of empty seats in the last couple of seasons and they have a huge catchment and following compared to us. As I said before hope I am wrong.

Yes cup games but not league games. My first game was 41,000 fa cup then the next week it was something like 13,000 for the league. The biggest league crowd I remember was 36,000 for that palace game in 1973.

I would like a bigger stadium but I doubt we'd fill it very often. I think season tickets would drop off but perhaps they'd then make them cheaper again to sell more.

 

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28 minutes ago, Mr.Carrow said:

The Watford game had over 27,000 for probably the least glamorous fixture of the season on a cold winter evening when it was on Sky. I'm not sure what your point is?

Ok ill take on the challenge as long as you keep it to a discussion not an argument and accept that my points are just an opinion as I am just not convinced although I my heart tells me I would love to be in a stadium of 40,000 each week rocking to our various songs.

If we go back 2 seasons we played Leeds and Ipswich ( could have sold more seats ) and 21 Watford’s, some away clubs offering a following of a 200 supporters.

1500 - 1800 season ticket holders every game do not turn up or offer their tickets to family, friends or the buy back system. Although those tickets at the moment in most games would have somebody willing to take them of your hands I remember those 2 seasons ago if one of our party couldn’t go we had zero takers for our tickets. 

The extra demand would come through success ( if in the EPL we can only sell 3000 away tickets ). Even finishing mid table for 5 years in the EPL would see boredom set in as shown in many existing grounds.

The club are already having to charge £50 membership to subsidise the reduction in seat prices to £30. Now this is ok in the EPL with the extra revenue, but a period where we no longer received EPL money would see those prices have to go back up.

Man City rarely sell out, yet Man Utd do. Likewise lots of local kids would rather go to Old Trafford once a year than come and support Norwich w eek in and week out. That is a major change brought about by Sky, whereas when I was a kid I supported Liverpool but my only way of watching live football was to go to Carrow Road.

Remember mine is a worry of sitting in a 1/2 full stadium, It is Kensell’s job to prove to the board why this would not happen and if he can do that then I am all for it.

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18 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Yes cup games but not league games. My first game was 41,000 fa cup then the next week it was something like 13,000 for the league. The biggest league crowd I remember was 36,000 for that palace game in 1973.

I would like a bigger stadium but I doubt we'd fill it very often. I think season tickets would drop off but perhaps they'd then make them cheaper again to sell more.

 

I agree and that would totally defeat any financial argument other than the point by Keelans Grandad of all the extra income available from commercial revenue such as big concerts, which in turn benefit the local economy. His point makes total sense as if it makes the extra money I don’t think the club would be to concerned with empty seats, I just think that loses the atmosphere.

Pity we can’t invent a stadium that like a sliding roof can slide out to provide more or less seats based on the number of seats sold.

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The extra capacity would obviously present both challenges and opportunities. There would I think be a risk of us having less season ticket holders because greater availability of casual tickets would mean that some people who currently retain their season tickets so they know they can get into games would just become members and attend on a casual basis.

We would need to try and fill that vacuum by growing casual sales and as some have alluded to I think giving people the opportunity to take their kids and to encourage the future generation of support would be an area we would need to focus. As well as it being a by-product of supply and demand (in part as well from when we knocked the South Stand down to build the Jarrold and availability of casual tickets was low for a period) our current fanbase grew out of the very good value family and kids tickets launched under Andy Cullum which got hundreds if not thousands of youngsters into the habit of attending Carrow Road and supporting their local team.

Its not so much of an issue in the championship but this season taking kids to Carrow Road who are not season ticket holders is extremely difficult.  When tickets go on sale to standard or non-members its often only a handful of seats or single seats on their own. Even if you can get a ticket for them its unlikely to be next to your season ticket seat. I know its something the club are looking at (because I emailed them about it) but with the limited home ticket availability its a real challenge for them. One huge benefit of expanding the ground would therefore be to allow us to get more young or new fans in and get that next generation hooked. 

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2 hours ago, dylanisabaddog said:

 

I regularly stood at games with attendances in excess of 35,000 in the 1970's 

 

It may well have seemed so, at the time, however the facts are somewhat different. In our entire history there have only been 9 league games with gates above 35k and only 4 of these were in the 1970's. The top 11 gates were all FA cup and all these were in the 1950's and 60's.

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6 minutes ago, ricardo said:

It may well have seemed so, at the time, however the facts are somewhat different. In our entire history there have only been 9 league games with gates above 35k and only 4 of these were in the 1970's. The top 11 gates were all FA cup and all these were in the 1950's and 60's.

Thanks for those facts Ricardo, that makes interesting reading. What’s your thought in this debate ? I am beginning to think maybe an extra 3-5000, however this point I had never thought of about becoming a major concert venue seems relevant as there are few or maybe no such venues with cover in this part of the world and probably large amounts of cash to be made. 

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3 minutes ago, Well b back said:

Thanks for those facts Ricardo, that makes interesting reading. What’s your thought in this debate ? I am beginning to think maybe an extra 3-5000, however this point I had never thought of about becoming a major concert venue seems relevant as there are few or maybe no such venues with cover in this part of the world and probably large amounts of cash to be made. 

There is a lot of myth attatched to the idea of huge gates back in the day. I would suggest people look at the facts first. Yes, the present limit is a bit on the small side for most games but we should also take into account that in most of the last 20 seasons we have been involved in either a promotion or relegation battle. I often wonder how things would look had we been in a similar long featureless run as our rivals south of the border.

During the 1980's and 1990's and despite much of the time being in the top flight, our average gate fluctuated between 14-18k.  That fact alone suggests to me that we should proceed with caution. I watch a lot of Championship football on Sky TV and there is nothing worse than seeing vast areas of empty seats.

32k-35k seems about right to me but the real question is whether an increase of 5-6 k increases revenue enough to justify the expenditure. 

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