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Bill

We don't need to spend...

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3 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

We will never lose the little old Norwich tag as that is the height of ambition for some.

says him who spent the summer of 2018 whining endlessly on here about how useless Farke was

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We’ve one centre back injured all season, one injured and not good enough for this level and one coming back from injury, but we don’t know how his recovery will go. We’ve been playing central midfielders in the back four and are on target to concede the record number of goals ever for a PL team but apparently we don’t need to spend! And you have the nerve to call those that think we do numpties....

Edited by JF
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26 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Oh right, I will await McLean (27), Stiepermann (28), and Vrancic (30) developing into the top class centre midfielders we desperately need then over the next 3 or 4 years.

And Leitner (26) with his career 5 league goals transforming into the goalscoring attacking midfielder that we so desperately need.

Or I can just be realistic and say that we've committed long term to players that just aren't Premier League standard. 

Vrancic the latest one to be hyped up as the answer to our prayers, geezer struggled for being too one paced in the league below. I do hope he could pop up with a few goals though, at least there is that. 

 

Vrancic is only contracted for another 18 months - do you consider that long term? Only our younger players (26 and less) are contracted for over 2.5 years: Godfrey, Lewis, Hernandez, Zimmermann, Byram, and then Aarons and Buendia on even longer contracts.

I would argue this strategy is pretty much exactly as it should be considering we are trying to build a sustainable squad that isn't going to result in us getting stuck in another Naismith/Jarvis situation if we do get relegated.

So given you are clearly unhappy with the squad, what would your alternative be? To ship out the core of the squad, and replace with "Premiership standard" players on huge wages to tempt them in, and no doubt requiring a transfer fee and signing on fee? Or something else that magically gets us a squad full of talented "Premier League standard" players given the financial constraints we have in place?

It's all well and good for posters like yourself and @TIL 1010to talk about "little old Norwich" and "lack of ambition" when things aren't going well, but  I would love to understand your alternative solutions?

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15 minutes ago, hogesar said:

Did you think that we were only going to have top class premier league players on our books within our first season? If we stay up, then slowly those players who don't step up will become bench players. Their contracts wont be significant in premier league terms, so it won't cause a problem.

If we get relegated, those midfielders you mention all excelled at Championship level and can obviously do so again.

I was referring to, quite obviously, our younger players who you've casually missed out. 

I'm sorry but I don't understand therefore what your point is?

That is much my point.

Throwing everything at staying up then failing is a recipe for ending up as the same as those ex PL clubs now stuck in the Championship and lower..

Does anyone seriously think that a club that talks of 'not having to spend' does not have the where withall to spend in January. Has not set targets to be brought in either ?

My point boils down to we should not be spending tens of millions on players whose contracts will act as a concrete slab attached if we are relegated. The two Murphy lads have shown that a bigger fee does not guarantee a better player - but it does guarantee an unaffordable contract if relegated with only two years of parachute payments.

Odd how the same whiners on here about spending were the same whiners berating the club for 'mismanagement' when we were stuck with hefty contracts last time we were relegated. And if living within your means assures us of staying competitive whichever division  we are in then I will survive with being labelled 'little ole Norwich' - by those who claim to be supporters

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11 minutes ago, JF said:

We’ve one centre back injured all season, one injured and not good enough for this level and one coming back from injury, but we don’t know how his recovery will go. We’ve been playing central midfielders in the back four and are on target to concede the record number of goals ever for a PL team but apparently we don’t need to spend! And you have the nerve to call those that think we do numpties....

cheerful soul aren't you ?

would anyone have acepted the signng of three 'spare' CBs in the summer in case all three senior CBs were injured after the first few games ?

the numpties are those who consistently bleat that spending money we don't have giarantees 'success'...... so what has happened at Southampton and N'castle - did they not spend on Redmond and Jacob ?

all that is done when signing a more costly player is that he has a proven ability at a certain level - however like Brady, Pritchard, Naismith that does not guarantee to make him four times better than a player who cost a quarter of the fee

would we be wjere we are in the league if only Onel and Zimmerframe had not been absent, if it had been Southampton and Watford we had played not Chelsea and Man Utd ?

however it does point to the mindset of certain folk on here who like some WW2 air raid siren start making a noise when even a seagull comes with 10 mile of the coast

so far this season and most of last I have watched some great attacking football. I have been priviliged to watch of of our best squads in action - for that to me is success, watching great football while still collecting the silverware many of us didn't think would be coming our way a decade back in the summer of 2009

so when w next hit that low, come on here and tell us how we spent our way out of L1 nad the Championship ..... we didn't

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17 minutes ago, Bill said:

That is much my point.

Throwing everything at staying up then failing is a recipe for ending up as the same as those ex PL clubs now stuck in the Championship and lower..

Does anyone seriously think that a club that talks of 'not having to spend' does not have the where withall to spend in January. Has not set targets to be brought in either ?

My point boils down to we should not be spending tens of millions on players whose contracts will act as a concrete slab attached if we are relegated. The two Murphy lads have shown that a bigger fee does not guarantee a better player - but it does guarantee an unaffordable contract if relegated with only two years of parachute payments.

Odd how the same whiners on here about spending were the same whiners berating the club for 'mismanagement' when we were stuck with hefty contracts last time we were relegated. And if living within your means assures us of staying competitive whichever division  we are in then I will survive with being labelled 'little ole Norwich' - by those who claim to be supporters

People seem to want to paint this picture that our only options were spend nothing or risk bankruptcy.

The financial problems created by our last trip to the Premier League weren't just 'we spent money.' It was that we handed out massive contracts to ageing or injured players we were never going to be able to shift. The season we spent quite a bit under Hughton didn't put us in the same financial hole because we spent money on younger players with resale value. I trust that given a decent budget Webber wouldn't have spent it on 'concrete slab' type contracts.

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7 minutes ago, king canary said:

 The season we spent quite a bit under Hughton didn't put us in the same financial hole because we spent money on younger players with resale value. I trust that given a decent budget Webber wouldn't have spent it on 'concrete slab' type contracts.

or, as pointed out above a few times, we were relegated with only two years of parachute payments last time

it was three years the time before

that has been the main gist of my argument 😊

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6 minutes ago, king canary said:

People seem to want to paint this picture that our only options were spend nothing or risk bankruptcy.

The financial problems created by our last trip to the Premier League weren't just 'we spent money.' It was that we handed out massive contracts to ageing or injured players we were never going to be able to shift. The season we spent quite a bit under Hughton didn't put us in the same financial hole because we spent money on younger players with resale value. I trust that given a decent budget Webber wouldn't have spent it on 'concrete slab' type contracts.

At last, someone talking sense.  Nowadays you have to spend upwards of 5 million for a decent attacking player in the Championship. We went different and got in young and/or cheap forward players on modest wages and performed a miracle in getting promoted. Now absolutely no-one is suggesting we go out and spend £20m on a 28 year old and put him on a 4 year contract, but what I expected in the close season is for us to do the same to improve the team. So far the only player that you'd expect to be an improvement on the first 11 is Amadou.

And I'm quite happy to continue bleating on about this because its mind boggling that some seem to think it's ok that we've spent peanuts but we have potentially 5-6 proper class players in our side and relegation is likely to see maybe 2 or 3 of those move on.  We are financially stable, putting the behind the scenes stuff in place and building the foundations for this club to push on.  So why not spend some proper money on some decent younger players (with a resale value if it does go wrong) to give us the best chance of having a PL status to match that and keeping the likes of Aarons and Godfrey.

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2 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

At last, someone talking sense.  Nowadays you have to spend upwards of 5 million for a decent attacking player in the Championship. We went different and got in young and/or cheap forward players on modest wages and performed a miracle in getting promoted. Now absolutely no-one is suggesting we go out and spend £20m on a 28 year old and put him on a 4 year contract, but what I expected in the close season is for us to do the same to improve the team. So far the only player that you'd expect to be an improvement on the first 11 is Amadou.

And I'm quite happy to continue bleating on about this because its mind boggling that some seem to think it's ok that we've spent peanuts but we have potentially 5-6 proper class players in our side and relegation is likely to see maybe 2 or 3 of those move on.  We are financially stable, putting the behind the scenes stuff in place and building the foundations for this club to push on.  So why not spend some proper money on some decent younger players (with a resale value if it does go wrong) to give us the best chance of having a PL status to match that and keeping the likes of Aarons and Godfrey.

Someone talking sense ?

Someone who didn't even know that there were differing amounts of money paid to us over those two relegations - and the effect that had... and will have if we are relegated this season

And that is compounded by the idea that a mid table position would be the difference between Aarons/Godfrey etc staying ?

dear god, I have to wonder at times

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27 minutes ago, Bill said:

Someone talking sense ?

Someone who didn't even know that there were differing amounts of money paid to us over those two relegations - and the effect that had... and will have if we are relegated this season

And that is compounded by the idea that a mid table position would be the difference between Aarons/Godfrey etc staying ?

dear god, I have to wonder at times

Someone talking sense by identifying there is a middle ground between spending millions on Naismith types and spending nothing which many on here dont seem to be able to do.  What KC says in the bit I've quoted makes absolute sense.

Versus some people who dont talk sense by trying to deflect the idea that relegation will be a massive factor in whether Godfrey and Aarons stay. Yes they are destined for greater things than us in the long term but in the short term why not do our best to keep them as part of the next couple of years. These guys have the potential to be £40-50m players - we're never going to be spending that amount on players so why not do your best to keep them while you can.

Investment in young improving players isn't going to leave the club in a Naismith situation and will in fact actually improve the squad and their resale value, indeed it's what we did last season.  I'm staggered to see that some people still blindly argue against it for this season.

Edited by BarclayWazza

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35 minutes ago, Bill said:

Someone talking sense ?

Someone who didn't even know that there were differing amounts of money paid to us over those two relegations - and the effect that had... and will have if we are relegated this season

And that is compounded by the idea that a mid table position would be the difference between Aarons/Godfrey etc staying ?

dear god, I have to wonder at times

Ahem, I did know that thanks. I just don't think it's the most important point.

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14 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

Someone talking sense by identifying there is a middle ground between spending millions on Naismith types and spending nothing which many on here dont seem to be able to do.  What KC says in the bit I've quoted makes absolute sense.

Versus some people who dont talk sense by trying to deflect the idea that relegation will be a massive factor in whether Godfrey and Aarons stay. Yes they are destined for greater things than us in the long term but in the short term why not do our best to keep them as part of the next couple of years. These guys have the potential to be £40-50m players - we're never going to be spending that amount on players so why not do your best to keep them while you can.

 

It’s a perfectly reasonable point you make.

I wouldn’t worry about Bills comments, he doesn’t bother to actually read what is said and is not capable of discussing anything without behaving like a 🐓😉

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Just now, king canary said:

Ahem, I did know that thanks. I just don't think it's the most important point.

Well its kinda relevant - for example you don't sign a 29 year old player with little resale value/potential on a 3 and a half year deal when you know you will only have 2 years of parachute payments if you go down 🙂  We didn't have any of that type of player on long term deals when we went down under Hughton. 

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1 hour ago, Ian said:

Vrancic is only contracted for another 18 months - do you consider that long term? Only our younger players (26 and less) are contracted for over 2.5 years: Godfrey, Lewis, Hernandez, Zimmermann, Byram, and then Aarons and Buendia on even longer contracts.

I would argue this strategy is pretty much exactly as it should be considering we are trying to build a sustainable squad that isn't going to result in us getting stuck in another Naismith/Jarvis situation if we do get relegated.

So given you are clearly unhappy with the squad, what would your alternative be? To ship out the core of the squad, and replace with "Premiership standard" players on huge wages to tempt them in, and no doubt requiring a transfer fee and signing on fee? Or something else that magically gets us a squad full of talented "Premier League standard" players given the financial constraints we have in place?

It's all well and good for posters like yourself and @TIL 1010to talk about "little old Norwich" and "lack of ambition" when things aren't going well, but  I would love to understand your alternative solutions?

Why are you using quotation marks to attribute fake quotes to me? Rest of the post deserves no reply as a result. 

Ps. Grant Hanley.

Edited by TeemuVanBasten

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2 hours ago, hogesar said:

Did you think that we were only going to have top class premier league players on our books within our first season? If we stay up, then slowly those players who don't step up will become bench players. Their contracts wont be significant in premier league terms, so it won't cause a problem.

If we get relegated, those midfielders you mention all excelled at Championship level and can obviously do so again.

I was referring to, quite obviously, our younger players who you've casually missed out. 

I'm sorry but I don't understand therefore what your point is?

Our 'younger players' are the ones who will be sold. Aarons and Godfrey in particular will not stick around. 

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11 minutes ago, TeemuVanBasten said:

Why are you using quotation marks to attribute fake quotes to me? Rest of the post deserves no reply as a result. 

Ps. Grant Hanley.

So you didn't use the phrase "Premier League standard"?

The other quotes, clearly attributed to @TIL 1010, but top trolling to avoid the whole post on that basis.

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It’s clear we do need some investment in January, Klose and Hanley have been injured more than available since signing for us and there’s no certainty they will be fit post January so we are in desperate need of a quality CB, loan orotherwise.

Also we need another option up top, I thought a Idah would be given a chance but this total reliance on Pukki isn’t good, again we need to strengthen there, so year definitely need some investment.

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6 minutes ago, Ian said:

So you didn't use the phrase "Premier League standard"?

The other quotes, clearly attributed to @TIL 1010, but top trolling to avoid the whole post on that basis.

I was answering Kenny Foggo who used the expression little old Norwich tag in the post before mine just to make it clear but having said that we clearly have no desire to shake off that tag.

Edited by TIL 1010
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About this ‘little old Norwich’ thing. We’ve never ever been a big club in our history. It’s not like under the current ownership we’ve fallen by the wayside and they’ve f***ed us up - I would say far from it, given the circumstances. Not a single owner in our history has managed to turn us into a footballing giant - and they all had a chance to do exactly that at a time when the footballing finances were relatively on a far closer playing field than what they are today.

The club’s never been ambitious, I blame the owners of the past for us not being Barcelona today, it’s disgusting 😜

 

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3 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

About this ‘little old Norwich’ thing. We’ve never ever been a big club in our history. It’s not like under the current ownership we’ve fallen by the wayside and they’ve f***ed us up - I would say far from it, given the circumstances. Not a single owner in our history has managed to turn us into a footballing giant - and they all had a chance to do exactly that at a time when the footballing finances were relatively on a far closer playing field than what they are today.

The club’s never been ambitious, I blame the owners of the past for us not being Barcelona today, it’s disgusting 😜

 

It's not about turning us into a footballing giant though, it's about our ambition as a club.  Personally, I think anyone that is just happy fluctuating between PL and Championship without seeing the potential that the club has embodies that "little old Norwich" mentality.  That we should be happy just to be here and should know our place and we should be untrusting of any outside investment.

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6 hours ago, TIL 1010 said:

We will never lose the little old Norwich tag as that is the height of ambition for some.

Perhaps some others are doing something about it.

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14 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

It's not about turning us into a footballing giant though, it's about our ambition as a club.  Personally, I think anyone that is just happy fluctuating between PL and Championship without seeing the potential that the club has embodies that "little old Norwich" mentality.  That we should be happy just to be here and should know our place and we should be untrusting of any outside investment.

Not yourself specifically, but I do think that some people on here see a lack of anger towards our current owners from some posters/supporters as a sign that they don’t want the club to progress. Not true. That said, I think if we ever did get taken over by some billionaire Russian oligarch, I’d miss those David and Goliath nights where we upset the odds. And looking at Arsenal, Tottenham, Man Utd fans I know, to name but a few clubs - I don’t think they gain any more pleasure or disappointment supporting their respective clubs as us Norwich City supporters do when we are celebrating or commiserating. So perhaps that’s why some of us don’t have the same desperate yearning for a stinking rich nationality investor as others appear to do.

 

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1 hour ago, Van wink said:

It’s a perfectly reasonable point you make.

I wouldn’t worry about Bills comments, he doesn’t bother to actually read what is said and is not capable of discussing anything without behaving like a 🐓😉

blimey hand crank has an opinion of football#

well not, actually

just another whine about me.....quelle surprise as they night say where he lives

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57 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

It's not about turning us into a footballing giant though, it's about our ambition as a club.

You don’t want us to become a footballing giant? Where’s your ambition? 😜

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48 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

It's not about turning us into a footballing giant though, it's about our ambition as a club.  Personally, I think anyone that is just happy fluctuating between PL and Championship without seeing the potential that the club has embodies that "little old Norwich" mentality.  That we should be happy just to be here and should know our place and we should be untrusting of any outside investment.

so, unsurprisingly we have stuff made up and whinged against that instead of what has been posted

the OP made the point that to progress we don't need to spend large sums of money on players with hefy contracts - with one point being that it could be that we might not have the mony to meet those countracts, as we dound in 2017/2018

however it is a measure of the whingers that that point has not been addressed - in fact a couple seem oblivious of it - instead they seek to portray a rejection of unsustainable spending as being happy to be a 'lesser club' - rather than it being a reasoned approach to finding ourselves in the PL a season after suggestions of bankruptcy

the OP was also intended to refute the guff being trotted out that the club lacks 'hambition' and is letting down the fans, where as the pinching of Webber from a PL clubs would rather suggest the opposite

and for my part I have stated that a club who claimss no need to sell will undoubtly have the funds to add players in January, it is just that paying hige fees is not a guarantee other than a risk of stagnation outside of the PL, as with so many others

maybe some of the usual whingers might like to cast their minds back to just over a year when we drew at poorman road, did anyone foresee us winning the title and being in the PL, unearthing players that would certainly belie their fees

has anyone this season actually thought that those signed in the summer of 2018 were intended as signings for the Championship for a couple of seasons, not as PL players - and so their replacement will take a season or two, or that we will lose some players to bigger clubs, much as how we signed them

or maybe talk about why they go to Carrow Road - to watch football, or to be part of something 'successful' irrespective of the cost, because for my part I have enjoyed some great entertaining football while still feeling that I am part of the club, not some rich man's money laundering scam

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There is middle ground and palace are a good case study. Similar size club historically - Went up and made it work. Now thriving after a few years settled.
 

Ultimately spending as little as we did was suicidal in terms of staying up-a few got carried away with the over achievement last season of a side made up to challenge for playoffs. They now have much more expensive contracts but we don’t have a better side..

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13 minutes ago, Bill said:

so, unsurprisingly we have stuff made up and whinged against that instead of what has been posted

the OP made the point that to progress we don't need to spend large sums of money on players with hefy contracts - with one point being that it could be that we might not have the mony to meet those countracts, as we dound in 2017/2018

however it is a measure of the whingers that that point has not been addressed - in fact a couple seem oblivious of it - instead they seek to portray a rejection of unsustainable spending as being happy to be a 'lesser club' - rather than it being a reasoned approach to finding ourselves in the PL a season after suggestions of bankruptcy

I think the point has been addressed and it is you that is still falling for the one extreme or another approach.  A reasoned approach to finding ourselves where we are now is neither unsustainable spending nor is it spending just a couple of million.  I don't know of anyone that wants to see us doling out huge fees and contracts but the alternative doesn't need to be what it is.

Could you now please address the point that actually spending perhaps £20m on some young players with resale value doesn't necessarily represent us spending large sums of money on hefty contracts that will doom us if we go down and might actually represent an low risk approach that gives us a better chance of staying up?

Edited by BarclayWazza

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1 hour ago, BarclayWazza said:

It's not about turning us into a footballing giant though, it's about our ambition as a club.

So is it lack of ambition that keeps Leeds, Derby, Forest, Boro, Swansea, Stoke, Sunderland, WBA, Pompey....even the binners out of the PL, and even out of the Championship in some cases ?

All of which I would say are equal to our size as a club, and many who have had greater funding than us.

Similarly with QPR, Blackburn, Hull and Bolton......what caused their demise ? Lack of ambition - or maybe over reaching themselves as club's with 'hambition' ?

Ours is not some 'ever so 'umble little ole Norwich attitude but a hard faced recognition of where we are in football's pecking order, and the dangers that could befall us long term should we ignore those dangers - and I would add for all the wingining on here I would suggest that there a fair few hundred thousand fans of the clubs mentioned above who would swap our last season, and where we are now for their supposed ambitious position

So why not enjoy the football, apprecate whats been achieved and understand how far we have come since Sept 2018 and look forward to carrying on that progress ?

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5 minutes ago, BarclayWazza said:

I think the point has been addressed and it is you that is still falling for the one extreme or another approach.  A reasoned approach to finding ourselves where we are now is neither unsustainable spending nor is it spending just a couple of million.  I don't know of anyone that wants to see us doling out huge fees and contracts but the alternative doesn't need to be what it is.

Could you now please address the point that actually spending perhaps £20m on some young players with resale value doesn't necessarily represent us spending large sums of money on hefty contracts that will doom us if we go down and might actually represent an low risk approach that gives us a better chance of staying up?

oh dear, oh dearie dear me

do you think that Buendia and Onel were free ?

do you think that players in the PL are on lower contracts ... because they are young ?

what do you thing our signing of some many young players is about, are you away of how Aarons, Gordon, Lewis and Mair joined us ?

and nothing you or anyone else of this thread has posted suggests that we can progress with no heavy risk by spending beyond our means

 

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20 minutes ago, Alex Moss said:

You don’t want us to become a footballing giant? Where’s your ambition? 😜

Funnily enough, a pub discussion topic from the other night.  I'm just old enough to remember the UEFA Cup run and the days of finishing 3rd/4th/5th in the top division which is probably the closest we can say we've been to that.  But you're right, there's something extra special being a Norwich fan and turning over a Man City or the one trip to Wembley I've had in my time following Norwich.  I'd suggest that a Man Utd fan in the mid 90's to mid 00's didn't get the same pleasure out of yet another PL title.

Personally, both in terms of football and elsewhere in life, I like the feeling of overachievement and progression.  In the short term, we've certainly progressed but if you go back further, we're still not learning from previous relegations.

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