The Positive Brexit Thread

[Herman 9,837]

We've finally rejoined Horizon. That's one stupid decision erased at last.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,438]

8 minutes ago, Herman said:

We've finally rejoined Horizon. That's one stupid decision erased at last.

Sub Post Masters will be Happy 😊

(That's topical for you!) 😉

[Herman 9,837]

Just now, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Sub Post Masters will be Happy 😊

(That's topical for you!) 😉

I heard the shocking radio series and nearly watched Toby Jones last night (he lost out to Faye Dunaway). Did you see it?

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,438]

4 minutes ago, Herman said:

I heard the shocking radio series and nearly watched Toby Jones last night (he lost out to Faye Dunaway). Did you see it?

Yes, watched the first couple last night. Very good TV. 

What a bunch of complicit shysters the Post Office are/were, thinking they could tread roughshod all over their employees like that.

[Herman 9,837]

14 minutes ago, Wings of a Sparrow said:

Yes, watched the first couple last night. Very good TV. 

What a bunch of complicit shysters the Post Office are/were, thinking they could tread roughshod all over their employees like that.

Cheers, I'll try it out on catch-up.

This was the radio series. Blimey, it made me angry.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j

[TheGunnShow 6,019]

On 22/12/2023 at 09:25, dylanisabaddog said:

You seem to forget that the UK voted 68/32 against PR in 2011.

It wasn't PR at all, it was AV, the alternative vote. Massively different model - AV is basically ranked choice voting.

[Wings of a Sparrow 1,438]

1 minute ago, Herman said:

Cheers, I'll try it out on catch-up.

This was the radio series. Blimey, it made me angry.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/series/m000jf7j

Nice one, I'll give that a listen when the wife is watching New Girl 👍

[horsefly 4,318]

Another Brexit bonus https://www.fwi.co.uk/news/crime/unprecedented-volumes-of-illegal-meat-seized-at-dover

[Herman 9,837]

Sadiq Khan opening the brexit can of worms. Should be interesting. 😁

[sonyc 5,541]

41 minutes ago, Herman said:

Sadiq Khan opening the brexit can of worms. Should be interesting. 😁

More uncomfortable reading for Brexit Britain voters ....this time about immigration and the economy. More "turbocharged" lies. The only success for scientists too has been a reconnection to the EU Horizons programme.

 

The Tories’ “barefaced lie” on immigration

Boris Johnson’s pitch to voters included a promise that he would introduce an Australian-style immigration system that would, in his words, attract “the best and the brightest” to Britain, says Matthew Goodwin on Substack. This new, highly skilled, highly paid immigration would supposedly “turbocharge Britain’s economic growth”, by flooding the country with brilliant people who pay more into the system than they take out. Brexit Britain, some Conservatives told us, would be transformed into an “oasis” of top-notch scientists and big tech entrepreneurs. The only problem, as new data reveals, is that it was a “big, fat, barefaced Tory lie”.

Over the past five years, Britain has seen net migration from outside Europe of a staggering two million people. How many came for work? “Just 15%.” The rest entered as the relatives of workers, as international students, as the relatives of those students, and as asylum-seekers or refugees. Rather than prioritising the best and brightest, Johnson actually made it easier – “against the advice of immigration specialists” – for international students to stay and work, regardless of how little they earn. That’s why non-EU student numbers have “rocketed” since Brexit – with most attending third-tier universities that rely on the higher fees paid by foreign students – along with the record number of relatives they’re bringing with them. Those who don’t drop out early, as many do, often go on to lower-paying jobs than other graduates. Far from ushering in a new era of “high-skill, high-wage” migration, the Conservatives have instead “further pushed open the floodgates” to “low-skill, low-wage” migration. If you want to know why voters are so “frustrated and disillusioned” over immigration, there’s your answer.

Edited January 11 by sonyc

[Herman 9,837]

It's as if they never listened to our warnings, Sonyc. 😬😬

[sonyc 5,541]

18 minutes ago, Herman said:

It's as if they never listened to our warnings, Sonyc. 😬😬

Aye. You could argue that the NHS was the most badly hit by European health workers leaving. And then the pandemic arrived of course. We lost a lot of very skilled health workers. 

Didn't the very people who cared for Johnson himself at St Thomas' Hospital also leave (seemed to recall one or both may have been Portuguese?). 

Isn't it that 15% of Brexit voters still believe it is good for the country. I suppose there will always be a rump of support (like for any matter) and that won't change. I doubt Khan will be successful in his attempt at rejoining but having more debates (but this time there would be a lot more honesty) would not be harmful but rather expand understanding for a greater number.

All of this is not to say the EU would be that welcoming of any application. The future of the EU is very interesting of course, more so in an uncertain world at the moment. Financially / economically, it is definitely in our interests to improve trading links (and of course freedom of movement). Any kind of closer alignment has to be welcome.

Edited January 11 by sonyc

[Herman 9,837]

1 hour ago, sonyc said:

Aye. You could argue that the NHS was the most badly hit by European health workers leaving. And then the pandemic arrived of course. We lost a lot of very skilled health workers. 

Didn't the very people who cared for Johnson himself at St Thomas' Hospital also leave (seemed to recall one or both may have been Portuguese?). 

Isn't it that 15% of Brexit voters still believe it is good for the country. I suppose there will always be a rump of support (like for any matter) and that won't change. I doubt Khan will be successful in his attempt at rejoining but having more debates (but this time there would be a lot more honesty) would not be harmful but rather expand understanding for a greater number.

All of this is not to say the EU would be that welcoming of any application. The future of the EU is very interesting of course, more so in an uncertain world at the moment. Financially / economically, it is definitely in our interests to improve trading links (and of course freedom of movement). Any kind of closer alignment has to be welcome.

I feel the EU would prefer us back in some sort of way, for economic and pragmatic reasons. (Although they have planned and prepared much better than us after the change). But, as has been mentioned, the belligerence and childishness of brexiters needs to be expunged for good before the EU would be comfortable enough for this. In fairness to Sunak he has managed to calm this. The big problem is Fifth-Column Farage and friends, waiting in the wings, desperate for a reason to exist.

[littleyellowbirdie 2,600]

8 hours ago, Herman said:

I feel the EU would prefer us back in some sort of way, for economic and pragmatic reasons. (Although they have planned and prepared much better than us after the change). But, as has been mentioned, the belligerence and childishness of brexiters needs to be expunged for good before the EU would be comfortable enough for this. In fairness to Sunak he has managed to calm this. The big problem is Fifth-Column Farage and friends, waiting in the wings, desperate for a reason to exist.

The EU and Dean Smith have a lot in common.

[Herman 9,837]

You have a lot in common with Dean Smith.

[Herman 9,837]

I see that the billions of pounds worth of weapons we sold to the Saudis did their job. 

[Fen Canary 870]

17 hours ago, sonyc said:

More uncomfortable reading for Brexit Britain voters ....this time about immigration and the economy. More "turbocharged" lies. The only success for scientists too has been a reconnection to the EU Horizons programme.

 

The Tories’ “barefaced lie” on immigration

Boris Johnson’s pitch to voters included a promise that he would introduce an Australian-style immigration system that would, in his words, attract “the best and the brightest” to Britain, says Matthew Goodwin on Substack. This new, highly skilled, highly paid immigration would supposedly “turbocharge Britain’s economic growth”, by flooding the country with brilliant people who pay more into the system than they take out. Brexit Britain, some Conservatives told us, would be transformed into an “oasis” of top-notch scientists and big tech entrepreneurs. The only problem, as new data reveals, is that it was a “big, fat, barefaced Tory lie”.

Over the past five years, Britain has seen net migration from outside Europe of a staggering two million people. How many came for work? “Just 15%.” The rest entered as the relatives of workers, as international students, as the relatives of those students, and as asylum-seekers or refugees. Rather than prioritising the best and brightest, Johnson actually made it easier – “against the advice of immigration specialists” – for international students to stay and work, regardless of how little they earn. That’s why non-EU student numbers have “rocketed” since Brexit – with most attending third-tier universities that rely on the higher fees paid by foreign students – along with the record number of relatives they’re bringing with them. Those who don’t drop out early, as many do, often go on to lower-paying jobs than other graduates. Far from ushering in a new era of “high-skill, high-wage” migration, the Conservatives have instead “further pushed open the floodgates” to “low-skill, low-wage” migration. If you want to know why voters are so “frustrated and disillusioned” over immigration, there’s your answer.

Genuine question, how is this the fault of leaving the EU? The shambles of our immigration system is solely because of the Tories, not the referendum result.

I voted to Leave because I wanted the government to have total control over who entered the country (rather than being beholden to Free Movement laws), and I wanted them to use that power to reduce numbers.

The government now does have total control over the numbers moving to Britain although the fact they’ve used this power to vastly increase immigration is one of the major reasons they’ll be decimated at the next election. However they could have easily have done the same with the large numbers of student visas while we were a member.

I’ve never understood why people were in favour of the two tier immigration system we had previously, whereby an unskilled European was deemed more worthy of coming to Britain than a skilled African. It always seemed a touch racist to me personally.

Also why is immigration now a bad thing, yet in the lead up to the referendum anybody complaining about the numbers was deemed a bigot? 

[dylanisabaddog 5,010]

1 minute ago, Fen Canary said:

Genuine question, how is this the fault of leaving the EU? The shambles of our immigration system is solely because of the Tories, not the referendum result.

I voted to Leave because I wanted the government to have total control over who entered the country (rather than being beholden to Free Movement laws), and I wanted them to use that power to reduce numbers.

The government now does have total control over the numbers moving to Britain although the fact they’ve used this power to vastly increase immigration is one of the major reasons they’ll be decimated at the next election. However they could have easily have done the same with the large numbers of student visas while we were a member.

I’ve never understood why people were in favour of the two tier immigration system we had previously, whereby an unskilled European was deemed more worthy of coming to Britain than a skilled African. It always seemed a touch racist to me personally.

Also why is immigration now a bad thing, yet in the lead up to the referendum anybody complaining about the numbers was deemed a bigot? 

What you have missed is that when we were in the EU we had the power to stop unlimited European immigration but we choose not to use it. I assume we made that decision because we thought we needed those people. 

[Fen Canary 870]

2 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

What you have missed is that when we were in the EU we had the power to stop unlimited European immigration but we choose not to use it. I assume we made that decision because we thought we needed those people. 

No we couldn’t. As long as they had a clean record and could support themselves they were free to remain as long as they pleased

[horsefly 4,318]

[Fen Canary 870]

17 minutes ago, horsefly said:

You’ll get no argument from me there, they have handled it badly. They’ve handled most things badly to be fair, hence why they’re looking at a drubbing next election 

[horsefly 4,318]

51 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

You’ll get no argument from me there, they have handled it badly. They’ve handled most things badly to be fair, hence why they’re looking at a drubbing next election 

It is impossible to handle it well unless you accept that we need much closer ties with the EU and Single Market. Alas the far-right dominating influence within the Tory Party wants to alienate us even further.

Edited January 12 by horsefly

[dylanisabaddog 5,010]

41 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

No we couldn’t. As long as they had a clean record and could support themselves they were free to remain as long as they pleased

That's not unlimited then. We could chose to stop EU people coming who couldn't support themselves. The reason we didn't was because there were so few of them coming here simply for benefits. They overwhelmingly came here to work. So much so that on average an EU immigrant contributed more to the country than a native person. They came her to do the jobs that fat, lazy British people wouldn't do. 

We blocked immigration from non EU countries because we didn't need it not because of racism. We need those people now to make up for the fact that EU immigration has been made far more difficult. 

This was made perfectly clear at the time of the referendum but was dismissed as nonsense by the Leave campaign. Sadly, a lot of people chose to believe them. 

Incidentally, the Conservative Party isn't going to lose the next election because of immigration. It's important to their hardcore supporters and members but not to the rest of us. The major issues are the economy and the NHS. 

Edited January 12 by dylanisabaddog

[littleyellowbirdie 2,600]

9 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

That's not unlimited then. We could chose to stop EU people coming who couldn't support themselves. The reason we didn't was because there were so few of them coming here simply for benefits. They overwhelmingly came here to work. So much so that on average an EU immigrant contributed more to the country than a native person. They came her to do the jobs that fat, lazy British people wouldn't do. 

We blocked immigration from non EU countries because we didn't need it not because of racism. We need those people now to make up for the fact that EU immigration has been made far more difficult. 

This was made perfectly clear at the time of the referendum but was dismissed as nonsense by the Leave campaign. Sadly, a lot of people chose to believe them. 

That was only a temporary block that could have been used to soften the change immediately after the accession of a round of Eastern European accessions in the Blair era. Fen's absolutely right; what he describes is how EU free movement works.

Had Blair used that option, possibly it might have softened the transition. He didn't though and the backlash against the change contributed to a greater appetite to wanting to leave by many, all because of a juvenile wish in the Labour party to 'rub the right's nose in it', along with relaxing immigration rules from everywhere else as well.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/default_content/12610177.mass-immigration-political-gain-says-adviser/

Edited January 12 by littleyellowbirdie

[Fen Canary 870]

5 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

That's not unlimited then. We could chose to stop EU people coming who couldn't support themselves. The reason we didn't was because there were so few of them coming here simply for benefits. They overwhelmingly came here to work. So much so that on average an EU immigrant contributed more to the country than a native person. They came her to do the jobs that fat, lazy British people wouldn't do. 

We blocked immigration from non EU countries because we didn't need it not because of racism. We need those people now to make up for the fact that EU immigration has been made far more difficult. 

This was made perfectly clear at the time of the referendum but was dismissed as nonsense by the Leave campaign. Sadly, a lot of people chose to believe them. 

Incidentally, the Conservative Party isn't going to lose the next election because of immigration. It's important to their hardcore supporters and members but not to the rest of us. The major issues are the economy and the NHS. 

I really can’t be bothered arguing with this level pedantry. The government had no way of preventing large numbers of EU citizens from moving to Britain while we were a member due to free movement laws. I wanted numbers reduced which was impossible while we were a member hence why I voted to leave.

Admittedly I didn’t expect the Tories to use their new powers to vastly increase immigration but at least now the blame lies entirely with them and I can vote them out later this year.

GDP per capita in Britain peaked in 2007, so I’m not sure how useful all this immigration (both EU and non EU) has been for the country as a whole. If all these immigrants were much harder working and more useful than the average Brit I’d have expected it to be higher in the years that followed personally 

[dylanisabaddog 5,010]

31 minutes ago, littleyellowbirdie said:

That was only a temporary block that could have been used to soften the change immediately after the accession of a round of Eastern European accessions in the Blair era. Fen's absolutely right; what he describes is how EU free movement works.

Had Blair used that option, possibly it might have softened the transition. He didn't though and the backlash against the change contributed to a greater appetite to wanting to leave by many, all because of a juvenile wish in the Labour party to 'rub the right's nose in it', along with relaxing immigration rules from everywhere else as well.

https://www.heraldscotland.com/default_content/12610177.mass-immigration-political-gain-says-adviser/

Hmmm. Blair resigned around 2008 and Cameron became PM in 2010. The referendum was held in 2016 by which point Cameron had won an election outright. But you have decided to ignore those years and blame Blair and Labour. How odd. 

[Fen Canary 870]

7 minutes ago, dylanisabaddog said:

Hmmm. Blair resigned around 2008 and Cameron became PM in 2010. The referendum was held in 2016 by which point Cameron had won an election outright. But you have decided to ignore those years and blame Blair and Labour. How odd. 

Blair was PM when the EU expanded eastwards incorporating the old Soviet bloc countries in around 2003. At the time he could have enacted some temporary restrictions on numbers as some other EU countries did but he chose not to

[Nik Vawn 159]

1 hour ago, Herman said:

I see that the billions of pounds worth of weapons we sold to the Saudis did their job. 

After the pounding they gave the Houthi's any thought than we can dabble in this, quick strike and get out is sadly misconceived. They are battle hardened, hard to see how this will end now!

[Yellow Fever 3,839]

27 minutes ago, Fen Canary said:

I really can’t be bothered arguing with this level pedantry. The government had no way of preventing large numbers of EU citizens from moving to Britain while we were a member due to free movement laws. I wanted numbers reduced which was impossible while we were a member hence why I voted to leave.

Admittedly I didn’t expect the Tories to use their new powers to vastly increase immigration but at least now the blame lies entirely with them and I can vote them out later this year.

GDP per capita in Britain peaked in 2007, so I’m not sure how useful all this immigration (both EU and non EU) has been for the country as a whole. If all these immigrants were much harder working and more useful than the average Brit I’d have expected it to be higher in the years that followed personally 

It's not pedantry Fen - DBD is simply right. 'Free' movement was not unrestricted although the UK choose to be relaxed about it. The later fact that immigration post Brexit has exploded should tell everybody 'Brexity' that they were at a minimum misled! There were endless studies at the time that proved that immigrants actually paid in more than they ever took out! A net fiscal positive. 

As to GDP per capita - I would suggest that needs a lot of a closer look - we have a growing non working pensioner contingent and as is obvious huge job vacancies in NHS, care and hospitality sectors where many European workers left. Tried to see your GP lately? Then of course we also had the 2008 crash and recession followed by austerity.

[Fen Canary 870]

3 minutes ago, Yellow Fever said:

It's not pedantry Fen - DBD is simply right. 'Free' movement was not unrestricted although the UK choose to be relaxed about it. The later fact that immigration post Brexit has exploded should tell everybody 'Brexity' that they were at a minimum misled! There were endless studies at the time that proved that immigrants actually paid in more than they ever took out! A net fiscal positive. 

As to GDP per capita - I would suggest that needs a lot of a closer look - we have a growing non working pensioner contingent and as is obvious huge job vacancies in NHS, care and hospitality sectors where many European workers left. Tried to see your GP lately? Then of course we also had the 2008 crash and recession followed by austerity.

It is being pedantic. We all know the freedom of movement  laws had a couple of minor restrictions, however it’s also true the government was powerless to prevent large numbers of people moving to Britain irrespective of whether the British public wanted to happen while we were a member.

As I’ve said previously I voted to leave to give the government the power to limit immigration, and they now have that power. I’m disappointed this current government has instead done the exact opposite but at least now I can vote for somebody else next election who campaigns on reducing the numbers and they’ll have the power to do so if they win.

There’s also no reason why Brexit should lead to EU citizens being barred from the NHS. The immigration system can easily be set up to give priority to healthcare workers as many other countries manage. I’m quite happy for Polish nurses to immigrate, I just don’t think we need Polish car washers or Lithuanian painters to quote the same degree