Such a shame

[Surfer 1,547]

Finishing as high in the league you can is always the priority for teams every season, so I'm not sure where the tension is between bringing our best players back into the team when they are fit v's keep on playing the younger players. Pinto isn't in the team because Aarons is better and Husband couldn't get in the team because Lewis is better. So I suspect we will see Leitner, Tettey and Klose back in the team as soon as practical because they are our strongest players in the spine of the team and that is what a manager should do - unless you are mid table towards the end of the season and "blooding the youngsters". 

IMO going all out for promotion means nothing more than doing what we were doing for several weeks before our christmas / new year run of injuries and these tough fixtures kicked in. The players and management need our support and belief that we WILL win:, that is how we can help them the most to achieve the results we all want to see.

[nutty nigel 7,539]

10 hours ago, Duncan Edwards said:

Yeah...

 

but “it’s all gone quiet over there” 

 

Klose will come in when fit. He’s one of the few players that commands a starting position in the squad. I’d argue that Leitner would go straight back in too but Vrancic is a quality player and we’ve coped admirably while missing most at some point. 

 

As for Godfrey; I’ve been impressed by him. Composed, talented, strong and quick. Yes; he’ll get better but I’m glad he’s ours and IF we are missing Timm, I’d prefer Big Ben chiming in with good performances than go Hanley and Zimbo. 

 

Its very much Klose or Godfrey and Hanley or Zimmerman for me. Only in a necessity would we go with either pair as a combination. 

Never mind "chiming in" there's a few on here reckon his time's up...

[westcoastcanary 173]

12 minutes ago, nutty nigel said:

Never mind "chiming in" there's a few on here reckon his time's up...

Or perhaps his hour’s come .......

[nutty nigel 7,539]

40 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

Or perhaps his hour’s come .......

Perhaps he just needs a little hand..

[Rock The Boat 1,332]

13 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

What a miserable perception you have of our club and our players. Fact is, if we don't get promoted we do not need to sell anyone. We will be two seasons into a well-managed project which has seen consistent improvement over that time, with a unity,  a spirit and a level of -- for lack of a better way of putting it -- job satisfaction that no amount of money can guarantee to create.

What is it with people? From a position where most were saying a top six finish was the limit of what could be hoped for, we are now apparently faced by free fall in the event we don't get promoted! None of you thought promotion was on the cards in the first place; how many of you were predicting disaster next season in consequence?

You ignore the point that if we fail to go up, many players will receive good offers from Premiership clubs and will want to go and prove themselves at the highest level. Player power means that Norwich City has very little leverage when a player wants away. There are no guarantees or certainties in football, you have to grab the chance if it is there. No one expected us to be in second place at this point in the season, we have to seize the opportunity to press on. It's not a miserable perception, it's dealing with reality. 

[keelansgrandad 6,679]

Never mind "chiming in" there's a few on here reckon his time's up...

You're talking utter Rolex!

[Van wink 2,994]

17 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

Entirely serious VW. The key words were "absolute priority", i.e are all other considerations to be overridden by it, the particular case under discussion being whether Godfrey should be benched the minute Klose is ready to start. That is a quite different question from whether Vrancic should be benched the minute Leitner is ready to start, or whether Trybull should be benched the minute Tettey is ready to start. 

I'm interested to hear from Purple that "many fans" have realised that an incremental approach is the way forward. These are the same fans who couldn't see any incremental anything going on throughout last season and were seriously debating whether DF should be sacked after 5 games this season, right? The good sense in an incremental approach has been there for all to see for many years, in the shape of clubs like Swansea and WBA. How many of these "many fans" bought into the message when we were struggling in the EPL?

And while we are on the subject of incremental improvement, that's exactly the point about persevering with Godfrey at CB even if Klose is fit. Would Klose have prevented Gayle's goal in the West Brom game? Who's to say; but Godfrey will certainly have learned a lot from it and be better for the experience. Of course, with promotion the absolute priority, that game ended with two points dropped irrespective of a hard fought point and valuable experience being gained.

I've no quarrel with anything in Surfer's post, but it isn't relevant to the question in hand, i.e. whether achieving promotion is or should be the overriding priority right now.

So the reason you want Klose back is that you think promotion this season is the absolute priority, irrespective of how well equipped we are for it? Have people not learned anything from our experience over the last seven years?

 

The text in red is the issue and the answer is obvioulsy yes, to gain some guidance as to how well equipped for it we are I suggest you look at our position in the table.

To take a view that in some way we should redirect our priority to player developent with a phantom end point being that we are fully ready for promotion shows a surprising level of naive thinking.

[Surfer 1,547]

Well it looks like we may be about to splash the remaining tea money on another young Luton defender, so that can only mean Farke has no belief we will be promoted and Klose and Hanley will both be off before Friday. 😞

[westcoastcanary 173]

5 minutes ago, Van wink said:

To take a view that in some way we should redirect our priority .............

I'm not recommending any change in our priorities; in fact that's precisely what I'm opposed to. It's those who are attaching overriding importance to being promoted this season who are "redirecting" our priorities. 

15 minutes ago, Van wink said:

to gain some guidance as to how well equipped for it we are I suggest you look at our position in the table.

Under Lambert we finished the season in second, and by that measure were well equipped for the EPL. In actual fact we were hugely ill-equipped and IMO everything that happened subsequently has been a consequence of that fact. 

[Van wink 2,994]

2 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

I'm not recommending any change in our priorities; in fact that's precisely what I'm opposed to. It's those who are attaching overriding importance to being promoted this season who are "redirecting" our priorities. 

Under Lambert we finished the season in second, and by that measure were well equipped for the EPL. In actual fact we were hugely ill-equipped and IMO everything that happened subsequently has been a consequence of that fact. 

 

[Van wink 2,994]

5 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

I'm not recommending any change in our priorities; in fact that's precisely what I'm opposed to. It's those who are attaching overriding importance to being promoted this season who are "redirecting" our priorities. 

Under Lambert we finished the season in second, and by that measure were well equipped for the EPL. In actual fact we were hugely ill-equipped and IMO everything that happened subsequently has been a consequence of that fact. 

Three succesive years in the Prem followed...I find your argument unimpressive WC

[westcoastcanary 173]

2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

Three succesive years in the Prem followed...I find your argument unimpressive WC

Yes, because your measure (a) glosses over the realities of those three years, and (b) ignores the subsequent seasons culminating in a crisis from which our new direction with it's different priorities is mercifully (and incrementally) putting behind us.  

[Van wink 2,994]

So in your view our lack of readiness for promotion was more significant than how we developed the squad during the three years in the Prem.

Fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinion.

[westcoastcanary 173]

21 minutes ago, Surfer said:

Well it looks like we may be about to splash the remaining tea money on another young Luton defender, so that can only mean Farke has no belief we will be promoted and Klose and Hanley will both be off before Friday. 😞

My turn to ask whether you are serious  -- i.e. about what it "can only mean".

Edited January 29, 2019 by westcoastcanary
Expansion

[westcoastcanary 173]

2 minutes ago, Van wink said:

So in your view our lack of readiness for promotion was more significant than how we developed the squad during the three years in the Prem.

Fair enough, we are all entitled to our opinion.

How we developed the squad can't be separated from our degree of ill-preparedness; for example, far from requiring a limited amount of strengthening in one or two positions, an almost total rebuild was needed (contrast the now finally recognised good sense of the Swansea, West Brom, Burnley approach). 

[Van wink 2,994]

😀

[splendidrush 700]

7 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

 

Under Lambert we finished the season in second, and by that measure were well equipped for the EPL. In actual fact we were hugely ill-equipped and IMO everything that happened subsequently has been a consequence of that fact. 

I think we finished 12th in our first Season, nothing to suggest we were "hugely ill equipped " It was only after Lambert left and the more pragmatic Hughton was installed that we started to spend big money on poor choices. 

[Duncan Edwards 2,237]

1 hour ago, splendidrush said:

I think we finished 12th in our first Season, nothing to suggest we were "hugely ill equipped " It was only after Lambert left and the more pragmatic Hughton was installed that we started to spend big money on poor choices. 

That is true, but only with the requisite massive dollop of hindsight. The signings of Hooper, Fer and RVW had plenty, myself included, thinking that we were stamping authority on our status and trying very hard to push to the “next level”. Of course, it never really played out that way. RVW was an unmitigated disaster but after he scored that opportunist header on day 1, despite being largely indifferent throughout the match, the fact he’d ‘hit the ground running’ offered encouragement. Fer? Well, I always thought we were a better side with him in it but I’m not sure he really has the heart for a struggle. Subsequent performances would endorse that view. Hooper meanwhile had scored for fun where a certain Pukki had “failed”. Transfers are always fraught with danger and we were perhaps unfortunate that ours - the big priced ones anyway - all seemed to go wrong in a short space of time. Benteke for instance had a season he’s been unable to replicate. Bony to a certain degree too. 

 

More recently we’ve picked up the likes of Pukki, Leitner, Buendia (we’ll get big money for him) and Hernandez for relative peanuts while selling the Murphy twins and Maddison for huge sums. 

 

Its a bit like prudence with ambition but with an eye for a player. I’m not complaining.

 

 

yet.

[westcoastcanary 173]

5 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

I think we finished 12th in our first Season, nothing to suggest we were "hugely ill equipped " It was only after Lambert left and the more pragmatic Hughton was installed that we started to spend big money on poor choices. 

Finishing 12th tells you nothing about how well- or ill-equipped we were for the EPL. Far more telling are the many problems which the "pragmatic" Hughton (for which read "the more-experienced-at this-level Hughton) found himself faced with, not just rebuilding and strengthening an ageing squad composed largely of, at best, Championship quality players, but also resurrecting the essential supporting infrastructure decimated by years of financial stringency, with all the cost cutting and staff reduction that went with it. For instance, no scouting network worthy of the name; Lambert, with his lower league management experience was, in effect, his own scout, while Hughton had to draw, for example, on his time at Newcastle (Bassong and RvW, both earlier scouted for the Magpies by Graham Carr). 

[splendidrush 700]

3 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

Finishing 12th tells you nothing about how well- or ill-equipped we were for the EPL. Far more telling are the many problems which the "pragmatic" Hughton (for which read "the more-experienced-at this-level Hughton) found himself faced with, not just rebuilding and strengthening an ageing squad composed largely of, at best, Championship quality players, but also resurrecting the essential supporting infrastructure decimated by years of financial stringency, with all the cost cutting and staff reduction that went with it. For instance, no scouting network worthy of the name; Lambert, with his lower league management experience was, in effect, his own scout, while Hughton had to draw, for example, on his time at Newcastle (Bassong and RvW, both earlier scouted for the Magpies by Graham Carr). 

Which means, as long as we're in the Championship, we'll never be equipped for the Premiership. 

[westcoastcanary 173]

11 hours ago, splendidrush said:

Which means, as long as we're in the Championship, we'll never be equipped for the Premiership. 

That's some non sequitur SR! We are already, in many, many respects, far better prepared than we were when we were promoted under Lambert. Where we still have some way to go is principally on the field rather than off it. Which people blinded by the simplistic measure of league position seem quite unable to grasp.

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

Realistically if we don't go up, there will be pressure to sell some of our bright young stars, just because we have them on contracts for a given period doesn't make it easy to turn away bids and a young player receiving an offer from a top 6 club (say) is naturally going to be keen.

 

But that would mean we're receiving Maddison/Murphy amounts of money, and next season our basic financial position should be stronger because we've got rid of the non-playing players on high wages left from when we were in the Prem.  So the question becomes using that money wisely, which Webber has done well so far.

 

For me the lessons of the last 7 years - and really the lessons of the period since the Prem was created and serious Sky money came in - are that no club outside the big 6 can become truly "established" in the Prem, unless it has an owner willing to put in astronomical (i.e. Man City) sized amounts of money.  And even then I'm not sure if this is possible with FFP rules, but that's a separate discussion which would be relevant if/when we have a billionaire owner willing to spend unlimited amounts....

 

This means every club outside the big 6 (?Everton on the edge of that group?) starts every Prem campaign knowing it could, realistically, be relegated that season if it goes badly.  So finances need to be set on that basis, i.e. contracts must be given based on what can be afforded if the club is relegated.

 

When we went up to the Prem under Lambert, we followed that rule pretty well, hence we were able to keep financially healthy when we went down.  The problems came when we were promoted back up, and immediate relegation meant we only had 2 years' parachute payments.  The club gambled by signing contracts which ran beyond the end of our parachute payments.  Presumably we wouldn't have been able to sign Naismith without offering that. 

 

I'm pretty comfortable that if we get promotion this season, the club will take a very hard-headed approach to strengthening our squad.  We do have a lot of players who will be playing in the Prem in a year or two, whether or not with us, so that bodes well (compare when we were promoted under Lambert).  If we don't, it's not ideal because getting out of the Championship is always tough and you can't afford to be complacent about how well we'd do next year.  But realistically if we lose some of our starlets, we'd be well paid for it.

[westcoastcanary 173]

39 minutes ago, It's Character Forming said:

Realistically if we don't go up, there will be pressure to sell some of our bright young stars, just because we have them on contracts for a given period doesn't make it easy to turn away bids and a young player receiving an offer from a top 6 club (say) is naturally going to be keen.

If you have good players that's always going to be the situation. It's not in itself "pressure"; it's a fact of life that faces any club. "Pressure" is the result of other factors, such as needing money.

Also I disagree that we are more likely to lose our talented youngsters (or older players for that matter) if we don't go up. The youngsters are at least another season short of where they need to be to become regular starters in the EPL. Their best chance of that is actually to stay with us, which is also their best way of getting the guaranteed playing time and experience to step up that further level. If we don't go up this year, we will actually be better equipped to mount an even stronger challenge next year, and if successful, our players are likely to see value in making their EPL debuts with us rather than anyone else.
On top of which, don't underestimate the worth to any player of being part of the sort of group we have now, with all the togetherness, spirit, commitment and enjoyment of what they are doing that we witness every day, on and off the pitch. We last had that in the Lambert years. Did anyone want to leave then?

[splendidrush 700]

3 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

Which people blinded by the simplistic measure of league position seem quite unable to grasp.

Surely it's the only measure when determining our status next season. 

[westcoastcanary 173]

1 hour ago, splendidrush said:

Surely it's the only measure when determining our status next season. 

“Status” meaning which league we play in?   Then, of course. But if you ask whether league position determines the level of preparedness for the relevant league, the answer is No! For instance, many clubs relegated from the EPL into the Championship are very ill-prepared for it.

[splendidrush 700]

58 minutes ago, westcoastcanary said:

“Status” meaning which league we play in?   Then, of course. But if you ask whether league position determines the level of preparedness for the relevant league, the answer is No! For instance, many clubs relegated from the EPL into the Championship are very ill-prepared for it.

Relegation is a very different animal but what it shows is that the system itself is flawed. Every Team who is Relegated, is asset stripped of their best players,  leaving the rest to try to get back. Of course, the sales will provide extra revenue to strengthen but they'll still have bang average players on Premiership contracts leaching their finances. Surely your position in any League reflects your preparedness at that time, it's only when you are promoted that this comes into question. As someone mentioned above, you don't get to choose when that happens, you have to take the opportunity when it's there.

 

[westcoastcanary 173]

12 minutes ago, splendidrush said:

As someone mentioned above, you don't get to choose when that happens, you have to take the opportunity when it's there.

In the sense that if you've finished first or second or won the Play-Offs then you're going to be playing in the EPL next season, yes. But there are many choices made before that end point is reached. Didn't this discussion start with my apparently absolutely outrageous suggestion that Godfrey should maybe continue at LCB despite Klose being available?  

[splendidrush 700]

2 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

 Didn't this discussion start with my apparently absolutely outrageous suggestion that Godfrey should maybe continue at LCB despite Klose being available?  

Yes, but you backed up your argument by challenging whether Promotion was a priority. I'm not sure who should play, I'm not qualified to make a judgment either way but regardless of who is picked, it will be with the intention of getting the best result. Meaning that, for the Club,  at least, Promotion is a priority. 

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,220]

Westie’s point about League position not necessarily reflecting the structural playing strength of a Club would certainly be understood by many United fans.

Ferguson’s arguably greatest achievement was winning the League in his final year with - as many United fans note - a non-vintage, aging and retiring crop of players, through his sheer force of personality and will. A last hurrah for many of the players. 

Upon his retirement multiple subsequent managers were forced into the task of wholesale changes and purchases, new integration and methodology. None have come close to League success. 

The number 1 League position that Ferguson achieved could thus be seen as an outlier and not reflective of the true ‘strength’ of the Club moving forward. The ‘result’ was there, but the foundations for future success were not. 

It is perfectly reasonable to view the end of Lambert’s reign in this way - and in my view to judge Hughton’s achievement in staying up more favourably - and to thus counsel against repeating such a scenario. 

Our current structure is indeed far better grounded and more robust, though it will be success that tests it more than failure. Should we be promoted, let us support the growth potential in those young players who have achieved such success, bolster it with other exciting young players with room to grow and bank the significant Premier funding difference to sustain and repeat the model into the future. Even if this means relegation. As Westie intimates, despite a return to the Championship in such circumstances, it would be great progress. 

Parma

 

[It's Character Forming 1,161]

13 hours ago, westcoastcanary said:

If you have good players that's always going to be the situation. It's not in itself "pressure"; it's a fact of life that faces any club. "Pressure" is the result of other factors, such as needing money.

Also I disagree that we are more likely to lose our talented youngsters (or older players for that matter) if we don't go up. The youngsters are at least another season short of where they need to be to become regular starters in the EPL. Their best chance of that is actually to stay with us, which is also their best way of getting the guaranteed playing time and experience to step up that further level. If we don't go up this year, we will actually be better equipped to mount an even stronger challenge next year, and if successful, our players are likely to see value in making their EPL debuts with us rather than anyone else.
On top of which, don't underestimate the worth to any player of being part of the sort of group we have now, with all the togetherness, spirit, commitment and enjoyment of what they are doing that we witness every day, on and off the pitch. We last had that in the Lambert years. Did anyone want to leave then?

I wish what you are saying is true, but I'm afraid the reality is that this is an optimistic view ! 

 

You can call it "a fact of life" rather than "pressure" if we stay down, but either way,  if we get promotion, the club has an immense extra amount of money, we can offer our youngsters better contracts and they will be playing regularly in the top flight, hence any offer from a Prem team will have to be that much more attractive to persuade them to push for a move and to persuade the club to agree to it.  If we don't go up, an offer of £20m for any individual player is hard to resist given our entire player wage budget, excluding transfer income, is now less than that I believe.  I'm not saying we'd be immune to this after promotion, just that it would be that much harder for a Prem team to make it happen.

 

Also I've heard the argument many times that a youngster should take the long view and stay another season in the Champs with a team like us rather than take a move too early, but it never seems to stop them moving when they can.  The reality is that when a player like Pritchard had the chance to move in that scenario, he took it, and I can't think of a young player at City who's not moved when an offer from a Prem team has come in and we were in the 2nd tier.  The flip side for any player is that he could have a career-ending injury any time, and their agents will always point to the fact that there's no guarantee an offer from a Prem club will be repeated in future years - there are plenty of examples of talented youngsters who were expected to make it to the top level but never actually did.  I think in the shoes of a 20-year old, it would be hard to resist an immediate offer of a move to the top flight.

 

The benefits of team togetherness etc seem more important to experienced players like Rhodes, who have seen what it's like when there is disunity in the dressing room.  I don't think it is enough to outweigh the benefits of an immediate move to the Prem.

 

As for the Lambert squad, I think the harsh reality is that none of that squad were really appealing targets for Prem clubs - how many of that squad ended up playing for other clubs in the Prem ?  None of them are comparable to Maddison or Aarons in terms of their obvious potential to do well at top level.

 

It would be nice if WCC's post were to be true, but unfortunately I don't think that's how it will actually pan out.  Time will tell of course - and hopefully the scenario where we're not promoted will always be hypothetical !!