Radical idea: no knee-jerk reaction

[0Amarillo<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>ddMMyyyy0Falseen-US<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>True 0]

I''m pretty disappointed about last night, and the fact that this season is turning into a very ordinary one after promising so much. I can understand that some fans want someone to blame, and since they can''t call for all the players to be sacked, are calling for the manager to be sacked.

But people must ask whether the action they are calling for will lead to the outcome they want. Of all the relegated teams over the past few years, most have not gone back up. Most have had a poor following season and sacked their manager. For most, changing manager has not worked.

Town got rid of Burley after a poor start after relegation. Well, that didn''t get them promoted did it? Now they just have Royle to moan about instead.

Ditto Derby, Coventry, Wolves, Leicester.

It may feel like the answer, but it rarely is. So although people may feel that he should go, they should acknowledge that it probably wouldn''t make any difference. And (see Megson, Royle etc.) has as much chance of seeing us worse off not better.

[Dicky 0]

I agree.  We are all upset with how the season is going and it is natural to want to vent our hurt on somebody, but a knee-jerk reaction is rarely the right one. 

[Slim 0]

Couldn''t have put it better!

People want the answer to be that easy...but lets all be honest, it''s not going to happen.

Worthy and all the team have my full support...100%

[ZLF 335]

I agree that we dont need a knee jerk reaction - however, for me at least last night was the culmination of weeks of under delivery.  It is an ongoing under performance issue warranting dismissal - not a case of looking ofr someone to blame. 

The points I have been raising for multi-months are still as valid now as they were 15 months ago (IMO anyway).  At that stage I suggested ways that worthington should act to address the problems and improve the team.  Even after the Watford game I was pointing out that Worthy could still turn our season around by simply playing his best footballers in their best positions in a formation that HE felt would deliver results.

However at no stage over the last three years does he appear to have improve his ability to manage this football clubs playing staff.   The same mistakes are repeated match after match (which is why charlie starting ahead of jarrett is so frustrating - it was unlikely to change the result of the match but so indicative of what is wrng with his approach, ditto the substituion of zipper at half time) and that he seems to be losing the dressing room too is another major concern that is not normally reversed

In view of this, for me, continuing and overwhelming evidence of Worthy being unable to learn that I now firmly nail my masts to the worthy must go mast. 

I will continue to sing until I am hoarse in support of the 11 yellow city shirts week in week out but my support for Worthy has withered and died. 

For me Worthy out is the only way for this club to progress - that does not make me any less or more passionate a fan than anyone else.

 

OTBC    

[No 9 - Bly<P><FONT size=1>Its better to have loved a short girl, than never loved a tall.<FONT><P> 0]

Here Here, couldn''t agree more

You change the manager and the results don''t improve. What do you do? change again and end up like Coventry or Leicester or stand by the manager. If thats the case you may as well stick by Worthy

[First Wizard 0]

May I point out that Crystal Palace sacked their manager, appointed Dowie and got promoted immediately!.

Just to balance the debate thats all.

[Master J-Do Pur 0]

i feel that we do need to get in a new face but not get rid of Worthy. Watching norwich attack is always good but watchign them defend is something that needs to be rectified. I feel we need to bring in an experienced defensive coach that can bring solidaty to our defence and team. anyone agree?

[kennyfoggo 0]

surely ...we faced this same  situation when Hamilton was shown the door,  what makes it so different this time..    appointing any manager is a gamble ask Newcastle 

 

[Slim 0]

Good balancing Wiz!

You managed to name 1 occasion when things worked out well.

May I also add that Crystal palace have done the same as us. Got promoted, got relegated and then have also had a disappointing start to the season, They''re only 4 points above us!

[Northern Canary 0]

i totally agree.

[still holding out for new heroes 0]

[quote]I''m pretty disappointed about last night, and the fact that this season is turning into a very ordinary one after promising so much. I can understand that some fans want someone to blame, and since th...[/quote]

yes my knee firmly jerked last night but having slept on it I feel the same that change is necessary, you quite rightly point to examples where changing manager has not produced an improvement (Ipswich being a prime example) however (forgetting the aspect of relegation) it can lead to a change in fortunes (Palace being one example and even ourselves in changing Hamilton))...I believe it comes down to every manager having a shelf life (does anyone believe even Ferguson will deliver another major honour at Man U for example) and in my opinion worthy has had his, and seems devoid of any new ideas in which to improve our situation, and for that reason I believe fresh blood and impetus is required.

changing manager is always a risk...and easy to judge in hindsight...but isnt it a risk of uncertainty that makes football exciting unpredictable and keeps us hoping of what might be, for me something that is lacking in watching us play at the moment

 

 

[0Amarillo<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>ddMMyyyy0Falseen-US<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>True 0]

Zipper: I think your points are justified, but not quite what I was driving at. My argument was that, looking back at other clubs experiences, you have more chance of success by letting the current management team work it out than by changing the management, however frustrating that may be for us fans.Your points are around whether Worthy''s style satisfies the fans, which I think is another matter. Interestingly, half of all fans'' message boards that I look at have fans on them complaining that their manager plays players out of position, play too many young players, don''t give youth a chance, have made poor signings. So much so that I end up thinking whatever manager we get we''ll have something perfectly valid to complain about or seriously challenge. But on balance I believe Worthy is better than some, or most, and just as likely to get us promoted as almost any other manager we could attract.It''s the old ''better the devil you know'' I guess....

[USAcanary 0]

[quote]I agree. We are all upset with how the season is going and it is natural to want to vent our hurt on somebody, but a knee-jerk reaction is rarely the right one.[/quote]

I have some questions for Dicky.

Do you blame Worthy for anything related to our current performance/situation?

Is there a point you will stop defending Worthy?

Would it take relegation or should we still keep the faith in League one?

 

 

[Morph 31]

For those agreeing with Amarillo on this thread might I ask how long you give Worthy before you say enough is enough?

Do you give him the entire season and say that it would be a success to stay up!?! Or are you simply happy that with the squad and talent we have available finishing mid-table is perfectly fine?

ZLF, has repeatedly identified the deficiencies that he sees with Worthington and his man-management, team management and so on - and yes remember he does go to games. Several others have highlighted numerous of those deficiencies as well.

Where''s the counter arguments from the posters who truly believe that Worthy is the man for the job? The rhetoric we so frequently hear is that "he got us promoted before he can do it again". There''s got to be more than that surely??

Here''s another one - in your eyes has he improved the way City play over the seasons he has been in control? Has he made City a side more readily capable of getting up to the Premiership and staying there?

I''ll give him his due he''s brought in some good players but by the same token he''s not always used the talent he''s brought in in the position they are used to playing in. He''s also not found ways to address the issues that some of these talents expose - Huckerby being the prime example and the weakening of the left side of midfield when Hucks plays there.

I''m as frustrated as the next supporter about the season. And yes we''re only 4 points of the playoff spots, but we can''t keep kidding ourselves that if we all "hope" it will come right that it will. Something needs to change, even if that change is Worthy is given a rocket by the board and an ultimatum that he has "x" more games to sort it out or he receives his P45.

...

[GJD 0]

Only seen us play at Stoke this year and we were pretty average, but I don''t necessarily feel that changing manager is the answer for now.

 

True some of the points made against Worthy tactics and team selections are strange and hard to argue against. They are also made with the right intentions in what those poster see as the best future for NCFC.

 

In Worthys defence we have had a bad run of injuries, had some bad luck in front of goal and missed two pens that would have produced three more points. When we get some of these players back, I think we are more than capable of putting a good run together and at least securing a play-off place. Would that be enough for me to be happy, well yes in the current situation.

 

As has been pointed out already most teams coming down always start slowly and we are still only four points off the play-offs, admittedly also from relegation as well. I suspect that if one looked on Southampton or Palace boards after last night results you would find similar discussion about their respective managers. In my opinion all three manager are good one''s and deserve to be given this year to see if they can turn events around.

 

The teams, plus supporters confidence is at a low ebb, but we are more than capable of winning at QPR and I am still believing, hoping, praying that Worthy can be the man to turn it around, since for me he seems a decent bloke and I think he deserves this year and a little loyalty to put things right.

 

So for now I in the Corporal Jones camp of "Don''t panic", rather than the Private Fraser camp of "We are doomed".

[Dicky 0]

[quote]I have some questions for Dicky. Do you blame Worthy for anything related to our current performance/situation? Is there a point you will stop defending Worthy? Would it take relegation or should w...[/quote]

In answer to your questions:

Of course Worthy has made mistakes this season, but name a manager that hasn''t.  I blame the players just as much as the manager, but I also feel that we have been very unlucky this season with injuries, hitting the woodwork, missed penalties (unlucky or bad play?)

If I felt that Worthy was not bothered about the team then I would stop defending him.  I think he is very bothered, as are most of the players.

We will not be relegated, so no need to answer this part.

I have two Palace supporters who work for me (in Brighton), one of whom is pro Dowie and one that wants rid - interesting arguments. 

 

[Moanin Riverender 0]

An interesting thread,but one point not mentioned yet,finances.Agreed,many relegated clubs struggle in their first season,but mainly because they are crippled financially.They HAVE to reduce their wage bill,their big name players all depart and the manager is left to work with a smaller,poorer squad.

We were very prudent in the premiership,too prudent IMO.But the only benefit of that was being financially secure with relegation.We were told by our board that no player would need to be sold for financial reasons.Over the summer our squad was depleted,with no real quality coming in.This was Worthingtons and Doncasters choice.This is their squad,and Worthy said he was happy with it.

This is what I find hard too take.If we had pushed the boat out in the Prem,and it didn''t work,and had to sell all our best players after relegation,I wouldn''t grumble,I would expect to be in this position.But IMO we forfitted our place in the Prem to protect ouselves financially when (not if)we were relegated,but now find we are no better off in tems of League position.

[Morph 31]

I went digging for stats earlier this evening. Here''s what happened to Charlton a club that many of us would be happy for us to emulate.

97/98 1st Divn     4th P46 88pts
98/99 Premiership 18th P38 36pts
99/00 1st Divn     1st P46 91pts
00/01 Premiership  9th P38 52pts
01/02 Premiership 14th P38 44pts
02/03 Premiership 12th P38 49pts
03/04 Premiership  7th P38 53pts
04/05 Premiership 11th P38 46pts

So they went up and came straight back down, but bounced straight back at the first attempt in top position no less.

Now that''s the sort of progress I want to see from City.

...

[silver fox 0]

[quote]In answer to your questions: Of course Worthy has made mistakes this season, but name a manager that hasn''t. I blame the players just as much as the manager, but I also feel that we have been very u...[/quote]

Dicky your comment about the players are as much to blame seems a bit unfair when it is clear, because he has told us so, that Worthy is the manager and decides who plays, who gets substituted, and who doesn''t even feature on the bench. 

 You cannot blame Ashton if his natural game is to his feet or a ball to run onto, and all he gets is balls to his head.  You cannot blame Marney if he doesn''t do it on the right when he admits he plays better central.  You cannot blame Huckerby when he is ineffective playing down the right, although most people can see he is much better playing down the left.  You cannot blame Charlton because he doesn''t do it in midfield, when he is a defender.  You cannot blame Mcveigh for not being consistent when he gets dropped even after he has played well the week before.

All these decisions are taken by the manager and nobody else, often to keep that favoured shape he is always talking about.  If you genuinely believe that the players are as much to blame then fine you are entitled to your opinion.  As far as I am concerned all I can see is a highly talented bunch of players who lack a manager to motivate them, and who is so set in his ways that he is not prepared to change for anyone.

I do feel that the players are not encouraged to show individual flair and I stick by my earlier comment that I would be hard pushed to name a player whose game has improved under Worthy.  I do worry about the number of youngsters who only get an extended run in the side when all the older more experienced players are injured. 

I know I sit high up in the Barclay, but I only see the same tactics week in week out, namely high ball up to Ashton, or get it out to Huckerby.  Even when a midfielder gets the ball in space the options to pass are never there because for the majority of the time the players are static(presumably keeping a good shape). 

Of course I would like to see Worthy get us promoted this season, the same as most genuine supporters.  However, unless he is prepared to accept that the way the team plays is primarily down to him, and accepts that he may need to revue his own tactics and coaching methods, I will find it even harder to support him staying as the manager.

[FilletTheFishWife . 0]

That''s six defeats? How many points dropped at home?

How many dismal performances?

Forget the injuries and bad luck. All teams have them.

Its gone beyond knee jerking. This is full on St. Vitus dance!!!

[FatMan Fat 0]

[quote]An interesting thread,but one point not mentioned yet,finances.Agreed,many relegated clubs struggle in their first season,but mainly because they are crippled financially.They HAVE to reduce their wag...[/quote]

A good point made here by Moaning Riverend.

Most of the "Worthy Out" camp are not of that opnion just because of this season''s poor start. Most have been concerned about his management for a considerable period of time and because of many different things. The poor start just confirms their fears and worries.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Exactly Fatman- Amarillo''s knee must take a long time to jerk as these issues have been around for 18 months now, and perhaps longer when disguised by promotion.

The other point about failing to capitalise on promotion after 9 years is a good one. It is as though the Board accepted relegation, made a rather limp attempt at staying up (with the execption of Ashton which came too late) in the rather reckless gamble that we would bounce back stronger.

Now we are not looking likely to bounce back (at least not automatically) its getting worrying.

Another point. Last season we were failing to win games but stayed in touch with the pack because others were failing to win too, and WBA stayed up with a very low points total. That disgusies how poor we were- in a normal season we would have been way way adrift. This season is the similar- teams are beating each other and disguising the fact that we are a poor team with not too many wins to our name. Sooner or later it will shake out and other teams will put on runs or accelerate away to leave us behind. It happened last season when we suddenly found ourselves 7 points adrfit as others moved away from us. We tried to play catch up but too little too late and we couldn''t rely on luck alone to get us clear.

If we don''t get the basics right there is no evidence on which to base any feeling that Norwich will put on a run as opposed to any other team. We have been outplayed and outmuscled by teams with, on paper, poorer squads. I would feel more confident if we were genuinely playing well and losing through consistent poor fortune. But we are not- we are losing games because we aren''t as good as our opponents and to try to blame posts, goalie slips and injuries is an exercise in making excuses not reasons and truths.

[mr carra 0]

of the clubs you mention Coventry, Derby, Ipswich & Leicester were all in deep financial trouble after relegation which affected their performances.  We are not (if the board are to be belived, which is itself an increasinly dubious proposition.  And criticism of Worthy is not "knee-jerk".  His management has been diabolical for the past 18 months.  Our promotion team had 3 players who stood out as blatantly lacking the mobility or technical ability to cope in the modern Premiership (not the Prem of Worthy''s playing days).  Those 3 players were Malky, Flem & Holt.  While Malky was promptly disposed of it took Worthy until April to realise that Safri (can actually control/pass a ball and make tackles) was better than Holt and Flem was allowed to start all 38 games.  Both these decisions rank as gross incompetence.  And this season what is going on with playing Simon Charlton (now an embarrassingly slow old has-been) in central midfield.  This is the most important area of the field and Worthy sees it as somewhere unimportant you can stick players whose job is just to run about between the defenders and strikers.  He is a Howard Wilkinson disciple and a dinosaur in the modern game.  He at least used to be lucky but now he isn''t even that any more.  No good will come from keeping him.

[rich 0]

is this knee jerk, where were the club when worthy took over,
low in this same league, where are we now 15th. Take into
account all the money spent, all the players at his disposal
and in all the years worthington has been are we really
that much better off. I seriously can''t believe the look
at the clubs who changed manager aren''t better off arguement.

By that rational chelsea should have stuck with ranieri because
he got them to the champ league semis and fourth. Now mourinho
has come in he''s completly damaged them hasn''t he, these new
managers never work best stick with the old guy making the
same mistakes week in week out.

[0Amarillo<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>ddMMyyyy0Falseen-US<P><FONT color=#cccc00 size=4><EM> º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ Amarillo ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°<EM><FONT><P>True 0]

Classic line Tumbleweed: "Exactly Fatman- Amarillo''s knee must take a long time to jerk as these issues have been around for 18 months now, and perhaps longer when disguised by promotion"

Pretty good disguise don''t you think?!! You''ll be saying next that Chelsea''s Prem success last season only served to disguise their shortcomings.

My point is that ''change the manager'' is an obvious but flawed plan.

And some arguments on here are flawed. If Worthy failed last season by not keeping us up, then Dowie also failed, and he probably had more money.

Some advocates of change point to Palace''s change to Dowie part way through their promotion season. But, he then went on to fail.

So by that logic, we would need to attract a manager better than Dowie to come here now and do what he did for Palace and more.

If we only matched that, the new manager would have to go because he would have failed.

And so the cycle goes on. Every year loads of managers get sacked. The clubs mostly don''t go on to promotion. Every year the media, pundits and fans and everyone talk about how Chairmen are too quick to sack managers - and how the likes of Charlton and Crewe are punching above their weight because of consistency in management. But lods of clubs just nod in agreement, and then sack their manager. The managers all move round one and the story repeats.

And guess what, the only time we didn''t sack a manager for a few years, in the past decade or more, we got promotion. But really that ''just disguised our shortcomings''. So now we want to change managers and start re-building the club all over again.

Sure, we''re not perfect. So far this season we''re not even very good. But there isn''t a manager on this planet who is going to make us a ''massive'' club with a record like Chelsea''s. ANY manager you can name would have some failure, as sure as the sun will come up tomorrow. And the fans will then moan and call for his head.

And anyone who thinks Worthy hasn''t taken us forward, just look at the last team under Hamilton, or Rioch, and the attendances back then. We''re a long way from that.

[Dicky 0]

[quote]Classic line Tumbleweed: "Exactly Fatman- Amarillo''s knee must take a long time to jerk as these issues have been around for 18 months now, and perhaps longer when disguised by promotion" Pretty good...[/quote]

Promotion a disguise!!!!!   Hello planet earth