Big opportunity missed.

[Buh 0]

Oh if only we were plucky little Bournemouth!

[Feedthewolf 4,865]

[quote user="Yellowbeagle"][quote user="Mr Apples"]Every single season the same old bullsh*t gets trotted out about how "this isn''t the year to get relegated", "record TV income", etc., etc., etc. and some fans swallow it, hook, line and sinker.

Nappy fillers.

Apples[/quote]

Totally agree, it''ll always be a bad year to get relegated, infact it''s probably worse to get relegated next season as clubs will have spent more money to stay exactly where they are now.

While the gap grows financially between divisions the risk gets bigger not smaller. The clubs dont get richer the players and agents do, giving potentially crippling overheads to the clubs who are all trying to keep up with each other rather than just refusing to pay crazy salary''s on average footballers from across Europe.[/quote]You know what, Yellowbeagle, that''s a really excellent point. Whatever happens three teams will be relegated, and the chances are they won''t automatically be the three that have invested the least money. Sooner or later the benefactor bubbles will burst, and one by one the Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour wannabes will realise they are in an increasingly saturated marketplace. If we stay up (which I accept is very unlikely) then we will be surrounded by clubs willing to outbid us for players, whereas if we go down we will have as much clout as anyone due to our balanced books, excellent facilities and income from player sales (presumably Klose, Redmond, Brady, Naismith would fetch at least £25m between them).The board situation does concern me, but until we know who is replacing McNally and whether any other changes will happen either on the board or in the (football) management team, I''m prepared to reserve judgement.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="Yellowbeagle"][quote user="Mr Apples"]Every single season the same old bullsh*t gets trotted out about how "this isn''t the year to get relegated", "record TV income", etc., etc., etc. and some fans swallow it, hook, line and sinker.

Nappy fillers.

Apples[/quote]

Totally agree, it''ll always be a bad year to get relegated, infact it''s probably worse to get relegated next season as clubs will have spent more money to stay exactly where they are now.

While the gap grows financially between divisions the risk gets bigger not smaller. The clubs dont get richer the players and agents do, giving potentially crippling overheads to the clubs who are all trying to keep up with each other rather than just refusing to pay crazy salary''s on average footballers from across Europe.[/quote]You know what, Yellowbeagle, that''s a really excellent point. Whatever happens three teams will be relegated, and the chances are they won''t automatically be the three that have invested the least money. Sooner or later the benefactor bubbles will burst, and one by one the Abramovich and Sheikh Mansour wannabes will realise they are in an increasingly saturated marketplace. If we stay up (which I accept is very unlikely) then we will be surrounded by clubs willing to outbid us for players, whereas if we go down we will have as much clout as anyone due to our balanced books, excellent facilities and income from player sales (presumably Klose, Redmond, Brady, Naismith would fetch at least £25m between them).The board situation does concern me, but until we know who is replacing McNally and whether any other changes will happen either on the board or in the (football) management team, I''m prepared to reserve judgement.[/quote]

The point is valid. That''s why it''s essential we find better value for money. As Leicester have with Mahrez, Southampton with Tadic and Pelle. Swansea have done it, found hidden gems for little money.

We have failed miserably with 90% of our transfer signings over the last 3-4 seasons. And that fault lies with the board.

[Buh 0]

Ohmahrez!!! Oh sweet mahrez! If only we had mahrez!

[Feedthewolf 4,865]

[quote user="lincoln canary"] The point is valid. That''s why it''s essential we find better value for money. As Leicester have with Mahrez, Southampton with Tadic and Pelle. Swansea have done it, found hidden gems for little money.

We have failed miserably with 90% of our transfer signings over the last 3-4 seasons. And that fault lies with the board.[/quote]Not entirely it doesn''t. Missing out on players we wanted was a result of a low wage ceiling, being a newly promoted club, having a very inexperienced manager, and being in an unfashionable location.As for the players we have signed - and I accept that there have been a lot of unsuccessful ones - surely the manager decides on which players we sign, within a budget that he is surely aware of from the outset? Surely that makes him at least partially culpable? I want Neil to stay and I think he can turn it around, but to suggest the board is entirely to blame for poor signings is just bonkers.

[lincoln canary (& Golden Coppel) 0]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="lincoln canary"] The point is valid. That''s why it''s essential we find better value for money. As Leicester have with Mahrez, Southampton with Tadic and Pelle. Swansea have done it, found hidden gems for little money.

We have failed miserably with 90% of our transfer signings over the last 3-4 seasons. And that fault lies with the board.[/quote]Not entirely it doesn''t. Missing out on players we wanted was a result of a low wage ceiling, being a newly promoted club, having a very inexperienced manager, and being in an unfashionable location.As for the players we have signed - and I accept that there have been a lot of unsuccessful ones - surely the manager decides on which players we sign, within a budget that he is surely aware of from the outset? Surely that makes him at least partially culpable? I want Neil to stay and I think he can turn it around, but to suggest the board is entirely to blame for poor signings is just bonkers.[/quote]

Is it really bonkers? They have the decision on who to employ, head of recruitment, scouts etc. Our transfer problems have been around far longer than Neil''s time at the club. The common denominator is the board.

The last time we had any real success is our first season back in the prem with Lambert, when we adopted a policy of signing the cream of the crop from the championship. This policy served us well, but eventually under Hughton became neglected. And This season has been ignored completely.

[Buh 0]

Not the season after that where we finished higher in the table then?

"Dey waz on da beach buh!!!"

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="lincoln canary"]All I''m trotting is how sh£t we are. And how angry that makes me.[/quote]

[Dicky 0]

Lincoln, you are a negative tw@t, you have always been a negative tw@t and unfortunately I feel that you will always be a negative tw@t. Do you apply this negatively to all of your life? Do you wish your wife was a bit prettier or are you happy that she is probably at your level? Do you have a breakdown if your kids aren''t head boy/girl or do you love them all the same anyway? Bit of advice, chill out, enjoy supporting the Norwich City, enjoy the ups and downs (you can''t have the ups without the downs), have a nice G&T and be thankful that we have a great club that we are proud to SUPPORT. Thanks.

[Feedthewolf 4,865]

[quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="Feedthewolf"]Not entirely it doesn''t. Missing out on players we wanted was a result of a low wage ceiling, being a newly promoted club, having a very inexperienced manager, and being in an unfashionable location.As for the players we have signed - and I accept that there have been a lot of unsuccessful ones - surely the manager decides on which players we sign, within a budget that he is surely aware of from the outset? Surely that makes him at least partially culpable? I want Neil to stay and I think he can turn it around, but to suggest the board is entirely to blame for poor signings is just bonkers.[/quote]

Is it really bonkers? They have the decision on who to employ, head of recruitment, scouts etc. Our transfer problems have been around far longer than Neil''s time at the club. The common denominator is the board.

The last time we had any real success is our first season back in the prem with Lambert, when we adopted a policy of signing the cream of the crop from the championship. This policy served us well, but eventually under Hughton became neglected. And This season has been ignored completely.[/quote]Yes, it really is palpably bonkers to blame the board completely for unsuccessful player purchases. Just as it would be palpably bonkers to credit the board with all the success or failure achieved on the pitch.The board is the common denominator of every manager appointed by every professional football club in the land, and managers must share a degree of accountability for the players that they choose to acquire. Unless, of course, you are insinuating that Alex Neil is a puppet and somehow there was a scouting and recruitment network controlled by the board and all the signings were foisted upon him without his knowledge and/or consent.For the record, I think that a Lambert-style recruitment policy (young, hungry players on the upward curve of their career trajectory, generally at smaller clubs) would be best for the club right now.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="lincoln canary"][quote user="Feedthewolf"]Not entirely it doesn''t. Missing out on players we wanted was a result of a low wage ceiling, being a newly promoted club, having a very inexperienced manager, and being in an unfashionable location.As for the players we have signed - and I accept that there have been a lot of unsuccessful ones - surely the manager decides on which players we sign, within a budget that he is surely aware of from the outset? Surely that makes him at least partially culpable? I want Neil to stay and I think he can turn it around, but to suggest the board is entirely to blame for poor signings is just bonkers.[/quote]

Is it really bonkers? They have the decision on who to employ, head of recruitment, scouts etc. Our transfer problems have been around far longer than Neil''s time at the club. The common denominator is the board.

The last time we had any real success is our first season back in the prem with Lambert, when we adopted a policy of signing the cream of the crop from the championship. This policy served us well, but eventually under Hughton became neglected. And This season has been ignored completely.[/quote]Yes, it really is palpably bonkers to blame the board completely for unsuccessful player purchases. Just as it would be palpably bonkers to credit the board with all the success or failure achieved on the pitch.The board is the common denominator of every manager appointed by every professional football club in the land, and managers must share a degree of accountability for the players that they choose to acquire. Unless, of course, you are insinuating that Alex Neil is a puppet and somehow there was a scouting and recruitment network controlled by the board and all the signings were foisted upon him without his knowledge and/or consent.For the record, I think that a Lambert-style recruitment policy (young, hungry players on the upward curve of their career trajectory, generally at smaller clubs) would be best for the club right now.[/quote]You just raised a possibly relevant thought in my head. We managed the romp from league one to the Premiership, we managed our promotion season from the Championship well too. Perhaps because staying in the Premiership is a totally different job, there should have been step change in all positions to achieve this.Perhaps illustrated by the momentum Lambert had in those three seasons, that he maybe didn''t feel he could maintain?

[pliff 4]

Perhaps you could invest some of your wealth and become a director or do you have lots of kids and work part time to get WFTC there is no point in being a football supporter if you don''t want your club to succeed.

[Feedthewolf 4,865]

[quote user="morty"]We managed the romp from league one to the Premiership, we managed our promotion season from the Championship well too. Perhaps because staying in the Premiership is a totally different job, there should have been step change in all positions to achieve this.Perhaps illustrated by the momentum Lambert had in those three seasons, that he maybe didn''t feel he could maintain?[/quote]A ''step change in all positions'' was never going to be sanctioned by the board; even five years ago the cost would have been prohibitive. Besides, Lambert was continuing his upward trajectory by getting his squad of lower-league players to overperform in the top flight. I guess he knew that even if he was given a sizeable budget, there was a chance the bubble would burst once the element of surprise had faded. Once we lost the Lambert talisman, the board gave Hughton money to try to pre-empt the slide – and, as every entry on his CV will tell you, he made an excellent initial impact before stagnating in the second season once the template got tired, as well as signings some expensive duds.

[morty 0]

[quote user="Feedthewolf"][quote user="morty"]We managed the romp from league one to the Premiership, we managed our promotion season from the Championship well too. Perhaps because staying in the Premiership is a totally different job, there should have been step change in all positions to achieve this.Perhaps illustrated by the momentum Lambert had in those three seasons, that he maybe didn''t feel he could maintain?[/quote]A ''step change in all positions'' was never going to be sanctioned by the board; even five years ago the cost would have been prohibitive. Besides, Lambert was continuing his upward trajectory by getting his squad of lower-league players to overperform in the top flight. I guess he knew that even if he was given a sizeable budget, there was a chance the bubble would burst once the element of surprise had faded. Once we lost the Lambert talisman, the board gave Hughton money to try to pre-empt the slide – and, as every entry on his CV will tell you, he made an excellent initial impact before stagnating in the second season once the template got tired, as well as signings some expensive duds.[/quote]I think the point I am trying to make (even if I really have one to make at all) is that I think there are different skillsets and especially experience needed in presiding over the unstoppable train that was the Lambert years, and the "being in a division where success is measure by not getting relegated". There must have been a point where the momentum phase ended, and a different approach, or different people with different skillsets, were required. Getting to the Premiership and staying there are two very different jobs. And I would have thought, that looking at the history of "smaller" clubs in our position, would wield quite a lot of lessons on how to, at least, not do it completely wrong.Don''t get me wrong, they did a lot right, but I''ll throw out a few things (and yes I know chances are we couldn''t afford) but Sunderland and Defoe, and Newcastle and Benitez. Now one of those decisions may turn out to be wrong, but someone at those clubs, at boardroom / owner level said "You know what, lets just do this".It will be interesting how this period in the clubs history is regarded, in years to come.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Well for what its worth I also feel pretty despondent, if not angry as well, that we seem to have just sunk into what I see as an avoidable relegation. How quickly we seem to have squandered the wave of optimism from last May. Yet this is almost our fate- we are a probably a club which sits almost exactly square on between Champs and PL in so many respects.

This relegation is I sense more significant than last. Bowkett has gone, McNally has gone, I doubt we will be able to retain some of our better players who we managed to last time. There is uncertainty. In the right hands this could be a great opportunity to rebuild, in the wrong it could be another few years in the wilderness.

But I feel that this season we were actually better placed to punch above our weight for a bit and I share Lincoln''s frustration with how it has turned out. I know I am in a minority but I put it down largely to the appointment of an inexperienced manager, a massive gamble which hasn''t worked out.

[Tumbleweed 106]

Just read Morty''s post above and I have to say that this is one of the best points you have made in my view. I agree 100% that these are different skillets.

[ricardo 7,396]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

 This relegation is I sense more significant than last. Bowkett has gone, McNally has gone, I doubt we will be able to retain some of our better players who we managed to last time. There is uncertainty. In the right hands this could be a great opportunity to rebuild, in the wrong it could be another few years in the wilderness. [/quote]

So I''m not alone in seeing this as the probable beginning of a long down slope.Please let me be wrong.

[Feedthewolf 4,865]

[quote user="morty"]I think the point I am trying to make (even if I really have one to make at all) is that I think there are different skillsets and especially experience needed in presiding over the unstoppable train that was the Lambert years, and the "being in a division where success is measure by not getting relegated".There must have been a point where the momentum phase ended, and a different approach, or different people with different skillsets, were required. Getting to the Premiership and staying there are two very different jobs. And I would have thought, that looking at the history of "smaller" clubs in our position, would wield quite a lot of lessons on how to, at least, not do it completely wrong.Don''t get me wrong, they did a lot right, but I''ll throw out a few things (and yes I know chances are we couldn''t afford) but Sunderland and Defoe, and Newcastle and Benitez. Now one of those decisions may turn out to be wrong, but someone at those clubs, at boardroom / owner level said "You know what, lets just do this".It will be interesting how this period in the clubs history is regarded, in years to come.[/quote]This is a very good post. The bit in red is obvious to me - the point where the momentum phase ended was the point where Lambert left. That''s the reason that instead of appointing a manager who liked to play expansive, attacking football, we ''retreated into our shell'' and appointed someone with a track record of making teams difficult to beat and having a good first season before stagnating.I think that having taken us from the brink of administration and the Colchester nadir to mid-table security in the top flight, wiping out £20+m of debt in the process, the board were reluctant to overcommit funds and risk ''doing a Portsmouth'' (or any other number of clubs who fell apart when the Premiership pot of gold was taken away).I guess it boils down to whether you''re a ''sticker'' or a ''twister'' - there will be plenty of people saying that we would have stayed up if we''d invested more in players. But when you''re a smaller club with limited means - as we undoubtedly are in Prem terms - at some point you''re going to go down, and leave a big financial mess behind you. You have to cut your cloth accordingly, and if we had taken the Defoe/Benitez gamble and gone down, what then? The most important thing is that any negative momentum is reversible, and the bigger the gamble you take to accumulate, the bigger the consequences if the gamble backfires.The only thing I would have done differently is to put all our financial clout into the summer window - go out, get your targets and know that if you want more money in January you will have to sell players to get it. The ''bedding-in'' period is very important, as evidenced by the failure of all the January signings bar Klose to hit the ground running in a dog-eat-dog relegation fight. Obviously I don''t know what happened behind the scenes or how close we were to getting the targets that eluded us, but calling for emergency reinforcements in January often leads to panic buys and overpriced players, who then have three more years on their contract when we get relegated. I hate the January window with a passion, in case you hadn''t guessed [:)]

[morty 0]

Cheers fellas, not everything I post is nonsense[;)]

[lappinitup 629]

[quote user="morty"]Cheers fellas, not everything I post is nonsense[;)][/quote]Could you provide a link to the ONE POST that wasn''t? [;)]

[Jools 584]

[quote user="morty"]Cheers fellas, not everything I post is nonsense[;)][/quote]You did well son [:)]

[morty 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="morty"]Cheers fellas, not everything I post is nonsense[;)][/quote]Could you provide a link to the ONE POST that wasn''t? [;)][/quote]Damn you[:(]

[Katie Borkins 1]

[quote user="morty"]Cheers fellas, not everything I post is nonsense[;)][/quote]

Yeah well with 3,000,000 posts maybe you should, I don''t know, like, go outside and get a life or something man.

[JF 694]

ricardo wrote the following post at 10/05/2016 1:43 PM:

Tumbleweed wrote:

This relegation is I sense more significant than last. Bowkett has gone, McNally has gone, I doubt we will be able to retain some of our better players who we managed to last time. There is uncertainty. In the right hands this could be a great opportunity to rebuild, in the wrong it could be another few years in the wilderness.

So I''m not alone in seeing this as the probable beginning of a long down slope.

Please let me be wrong.

Pretty much how I see things as well. I have a bad feeling that tomorrow night will be the last PL game at Carrow road for a while. Without Bowkett and McNally I have no faith in the rest of the board

[morty 0]

[quote user="Katie Borkins"][quote user="morty"]Cheers fellas, not everything I post is nonsense[;)][/quote]

Yeah well with 3,000,000 posts maybe you should, I don''t know, like, go outside and get a life or something man.

[/quote][:D]

[Tumbleweed 106]

I have felt that this season we approached it with quite a negative mindset generally. I sometimes thought we played like an underdog in an FA Cup game against a bigger club. We didn''t seem to have the confidence to go out and play our own game, take it to the opposition and play to our strengths. The string of poor 1-0 defeats suggested we have been a limited team, playing too conservatively with little expectation or belief that we could win.

How many of our wins have been against teams actually playing well? Mu feeling is that we have generally only beaten teams who had a bit of a shocker, possibly except Newcastle at home.

But despite that, almost exactly a month ago we were on the brink of staying up. We have slipped abominably since then, we had all the aces, including playing a Palace team who hadn''t won this year and Sunderland who hadn''t won at our place in the league for something like 30 years and who were struggling to create chances and score goals. We have folded like limp lettuce leaf and effectively thrown this away in the last 4 games. I still maintain that the manager is largely to blame for that.

[hogesar 9,722]

I think the recruitment issue is the one that 99% of fans will target as being the failure for this season.

I''m not quite so sure. Because it tends to be the same people bemoaning our recruitment that also criticise the players we have signed. Now, if the ''football board'' aren''t getting the right targets, then spending more money would simply be a waste.

Newcastle will probably go down this season. They''ve spent what, 80 million pounds? If we spent 80 million pounds on rubbish signings we would probably be in the same position we are now, apart from going down would be financial disaster for us.

I''m not completely defending the situation because I think the Klose signing gave us all a taste of what we thought we should have had from the start this season, and it''s reasonable to suggest we''d have more points on the board if he''d been in our team more often than not.

The annoying thing with football is there''s probably 99 reasons associated with us going down yet people feel the need to lay the blame at one place. The easiest place, is the "board" because it''s faceless. Others pick Delia specifically because, I presume, she''s seen as an easy target.

Anyway, we''ve got Watford tonight. Let''s spank them 3-0 and see what happens.