The Judge

So the optimists show ''blind faith'' and the pessimists ''a dose of reality'' - we clearly know which side of the fence the OP sits and all those agreeing with it are clearly the ''realists'' are they. Sorry just another polarised one dimensional post. The true ''realists'' sit somewhere between the two camps. Clearly as the stats show we aren''t creating anywhere as near enough chances as we should be, and Hughton has necessarily tightened up our defence but to blame him for all of a sudden making the players regress in rubbish. Reality is that they all over performed last year riding the crest of a wave fuelled by the confidence of back to back promotions playing a style of football that unfortunately was never going to be successful again with the same group of players ( hence why a certain manager left who knew this aswell). Hughton is doing what he has to with the group of players at his disposal. I agree its not pretty but unfortunately that is the ''reality'' of where we are in this division. We may stay up, we may go down but if we do stay up the time to start judging CH properly is next season.

[quote user="AJ"]What on earth has changed since our 10 game run earlier in the season? Could Ruddy being injured really make that much difference? God knows what is going on, but it''s no where near good enough[/quote] Ruddy has been a big miss AJ but with the clean sheets and draws we have been picking up we can''t really conclude that his absence has been the main reason. The other player missing from the current side that played in all games in that run earlier in the season is Whittaker and In my opinion he has to come back in the side. Appreciate Martin hasn''t done too much wrong I do believe Whittaker is a far better defender which therefore allows Snodgrass to pick up the ball higher up the pitch and do his work where we need him to. There in another thread on the go about the wingers and lack of service to the front man. I agree this is a big problem for us at the moment, Snodgrass isn''t blessed with pace so he has to do his business higher up the pitch to be a threat. Clearly our strikers are lacking goals but they need service. Another absentee in recent weeks from that side has been Tettey. Despite playing 5 in midfield we still don''t seem to be winning many of the midfield battles the reason (in my opinion) is that Johnson is our only combative midfielder in the side and he his having to do too much on his own. For all his ''supposed'' composure on the ball Howson couldn''t tackle his way out of a paper bag I haven''t seen him have a good game for Norwich ( even including last season when people were wetting themselves over him). Call it negative or ''safe'' but I would go back to the team ( other than Ruddy) that went on that run and play in the formation we deployed even at home. It is our best side so they all must be playing in these final few games.

[quote user="Huckerbys Boots - Matt"]Why has nobody mentioned that Whittaker is far better defensively than Martin? Stronger and better in the air. Both are good going forward and both link up well with Snoddy. But for me Whittaker offers much more defensively. Martins defensive work lets him down on occasion, but its his composure in front of goal (apart from today! And thank god hd did miss cause it was never a foul from Holt) that keeps him in the team, as well as his supporting of Snodgrass.[/quote] Totally agree HB - how some on this thread ( who I assume all know a little bit about football) feel or think Martin is consistently a sound right back amazes me. Yes he probably is slightly better in front of goal but his primary job is defending and in my view Whittaker is heads and shoulders above him at this and should be in the side. The only reason why I believe Martin remains in the side is, as stated by another above are his goals around Christmas. We are a better unit defensively with Whittaker in the side and he also provides Snoddy with much greater freedom to do what he is best at, attacking and running at the opposition, than Martin who ( If you watch him at the next game ) constantly berates Snodgrass, to the point he gets totally f''d off with him, to ensure he covers him at right back whilst he disappears into the centre somewhere so he doesn''t have to tackle anyone.

Total, total nonsense. An unsurprising defeat by a Man U team bang in form. Move on ....

Was at the game and saw two very average teams cancel each other out for a very poor quality draw. Thing is if you read their team sheet prior to the game how many of those players wouldn''t you put in your team ahead of ours ? Berbatov, Dunn, Riiese, Sidwell, etc etc all assembled at significant cost and no doubt significant wages. So at least our average side is a cheap average side !

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]I''m a positive supporter too, as are many who sit around me, however 9 games without a win is understandably giving some cause for concern, I don''t think we''ve actually looked like, or really deserved to win any of those 9 either. I agree with the CUSDP that the root of our troubles is the Johnson/Tettey central midfield partnership. That partnership generally works really well away from home, or against the top sides at FCR where we''re not expected to make the running, we sit back, defend well as a unit and hit teams on the counter. It''ll probably do the job against attacking teams like we were last year such as Southampton and Reading too. The problem we have, and where this partnership doesn''t seem to work, is against sides who come here happy to get a point where we have to take the game to them. This is when we need a plan B. I have no issue with the formation itself, it allows us to get the best from Wes and gives us 2 attacking wingers, but games like today are crying out for Fox or Howson to partner either Johnson or Tettey in my opinion.[/quote] Agree with a lot of the points made in a number of these posts. Problem is that when these players have been given their chance this season they have failed miserably so I can understand CH''s reluctance to play them. I also firmly believe our defence is ''work in progress'' and therefore the manager believes it sensible to provide protection in the form of Tettey and BJ. Also other than Snoddy ( who isn''t blessed with pace) our wide attacking players haven''t played particularly well this season either leaving the forwards fighting for scraps rather than good service. So in summary I do believe our starting 11 picks itself and can hold its own in this league, however this starting 11 dictates a certain formation, which then leads to a certain type of play. Outside this 11 the players just haven''t performed so would you risk bringing them in ? A chap next too me today was shouting for Jackson to come on and play 2 up front - but when he came on he slagged him off for 2 lazy offsides and one terrible piece of control when we were attacking ! Point is Jackson just sadly isn''t good enough to start. Judge CH when he brings a few more of the players he wants. We will then really start to see the style of play and formation he prefers until that time he has to work with what is at his disposal. It''s going to be nip and tuck until the end of the season. Hopefully we will do enough to stay up - then next season is the time to really judge him.

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]There seems to be a pattern emerging with our results when Bassong doesn''t play...[/quote] It''s not just Bassong it''s Whittaker and Ruddy as well unfortunately

If true this is good news for me. Proven goal scorer at this level, and would suit our style well. He also seems to put a good shift in when I''ve seen him play. Appreciate £5m may seem quite a high figure, but that is generally pretty cheap for a premiership striker. Shows we mean business. Much better option in my view than CMS or Hooper who are both unproven at the level we now operate.

Arr - Ginger we cross swords again. You are clearly Russell Martins love child... No doubting Martin''s desire but that doesn''t make him a good player by default.. If I went on the pitch I would run my socks off (not very fast or for very long I must say..) but you couldn''t say I didn''t have the desire. .. A1 we agreed on Holt defending from the front the other day and as said above you can''t knock Russell''s desire and you are right that he has popped up with a few goals in the last few games - but those last ditch challenges you refer to in you OP are generally because he is totally out of position (ie looking to bomb forward to get those goals rather taking a good defensive position) and those ''leadership'' qualities are generally him shouting / pointing at other players (primarily Snodgrass as the player in front of him) to cover him because he is out of position or doesn''t want to take responsibility for tackling and stopping crosses coming in from his side of the pitch. Appreciate this is sounding like a character assassination of Russell which isn''t intended to be the case as like you said in your original post you can''t fault his desire for the Norwich cause but just because he has scored a couple of goals doesn''t mean he deserves to be in the side - We are a better defensive unit with Whittaker in the side so as soon as he is fit he has to come in to the starting 11 straight away.

I agree with a lot of what you say here A1. With Holt in the side we defend from the front pushing the opposing teams defenders back, meaning our midfield can push up, followed by our defence. It takes so much pressure off our defence when he is in the side. Hoolahan is excellent at this as well. This is the main reason when Morrison is in the side we don''t look as effective or threatening. It is vital if we continue to play one up front that that striker runs his socks off - which is what Holt does every time he plays and others don''t.

OK ginger - we will obviously agree to disagree. At least we both agreed about The impact of the loss of Ruddy. Happy New Year

You really think he is better defensively - now that is hilarious!

I agree that defenders scoring goals is a nice bonus (just look at the goals Bassong has got for us) however for me first and foremost defenders need to defend. I assume you have been to the home games as I have. Stats and results tell you one thing actually seeing what has gone on the pitch is also revealing and we are a much more solid and confident defensive unit when Whittaker is in the side than when Russell is. However Whittaker is injured so we just have to get on with it but I would actually rather see Elliott Bennett given a go at RB rather than Russell because (as you can probably guess) I don''t think he is up to at this level. It will be interesting to see what CH thinks when Whittaker is fit again bearing in mind Russell has chipped in with the goals recently.

I believe he went off injured in the West Brom game - since then we haven''t won a game. Appreciate 2 of those games have been Chelsea and Man City but if you look at the start of the season when he was injured as well and RM was in the team - the results and scorelines are there for everyone to see. Our defence is much stronger with Whittaker in it and the back up isn''t good enough.

It''s no coincidence that since Whittaker has been injured we have started to leak goals which inevitably has led to us losing games. I appreciate Russell Martin has chipped in with a couple of goals in the last two games but he is in the side to defend and I''m sorry but he simply isn''t up to it. Losing Ruddy to to injury clearly hasn''t helped either but if you look at the stats for the season so far our unbeaten run came when Whittaker was in the side. I was surprised at CH''s decision to drop Garrido today and not replace him with our other left back - Tierney. Instead he moves Russell to LB where he is just as weak as RB ! The sooner Whittaker is back the better or if its a long term injury we should be looking to strengthen in that position in the window - loan for Naughton ?

and he is right in front of me for the other 45 mins and I stand totally by what I say. As as for your conclusion - good we don''t all think the same thing isn''t it....as life would be boring and (as according to you) you are obviously right I''m surprised you are actually sitting in the stands and not in the dug out at some premier league club because you clearly know more about football than most ... especially thick old me...(oh and most of the people that sit around me aswell...oh and those I work with....oh and those I play football with..) Watch this space - he will be replaced in january or the summer.

I have to agree with the original poster on this one - Russell Martin is a very weak link in our defense and in my view one of the main reasons we concede so many goals. With Drury out both our full backs are weak leaving the 2 centre backs with a heck of a lot to do - good job Barnett and Ward are playing so well.For those of you who think Martin is a good defender (and i''m not saying he is a bad one just not championship standard) - next time you go to a match watch how many tackles or clearing headers he makes, and more importantly how many crosses he stops coming into the box. I think you will be shocked - I''m sorry but he might as well not be there most of the time. Agreed Gradel is a very tricky player and Mcnamee provides no support what ever when he plays in front of him - but it wasn''t just his performance yesterday that has me concerned he is like this every week and opposing teams look to exploit him.I think a number of you have got carried away with his attacking play over the past few weeks, which I agree has been good, but primarily he is played to defend and he just isn''t up to scratch. Lambert stated earlier in the season we got 8 of the 9 players we were after in the summer - I firmly believe the 9th (especially after Spillane was sold) was the Coventry right back we were linked with and I fully expect that Lambert will look to get a first choice replacement in that position in January if not then definately in the summer.

[quote user="Iwan is God"]I think you''re all missing one small point. He doesn''t want to play for us! We don''t need uncommitted players on the pitch, especially in this league![/quote] I can''t remember him ever saying this. Happy to be proved wrong. The thing is - if he isn''t going anywhere we have to play him. He is better than most of the others we have in midfield and the fact is we are paying him alot of money to do nothing at the moment. I personally think he should have played from the start of the season unless there was a definate bid in for him. We can''t afford to be paying him and not playing him.  

[quote user="John"]I ''feel'' like we''ve made some positive activity in the market under Gunn. However i must admit that when i look at our line up of players, no matter how much i try and convince myself otherwise, i can''t help but feel that deep down it''s nowhere near being a promotion side of any sort. I can''t say i have much confidence in the available quality we have at our disposal, and neither am i confident that the team will have properly gelled together by any point during this season, and believe that it may unfortunately take atleast a couple of years for us to of repaired the damage that has been dealt over the past few years, and then develop a proper footballing side. And thats not to mention my utter lack of confidence in the managers managing ability (of which i''m convinced will fail us at almost every turn before his eventual sacking, and have been given ''no'' indication to think otherwise as of yet in this respect), and the low esteem of which i hold our board in. We''re going to be stuck down here for many a year, and believe me when i say there is going to be many periods of changing and adjusting before we can mount any solid promotion challenge. The problems are far too deep rooted, and the assets we currently have on the pitch are far too thin on the ground to realisically hold any immediate hopes of positivity. (I think contemplating this has made me more of a pessimist than i was expecting to be if i''m being honest.... I was actually an ''optimist'' a few days ago, but then i started seeing reason [:(].....) [/quote] Well said that man... I keep trying to look for positives but unfortunately can''t see any at the moment or any hope of any whilst the current majority share holders are in charge of the club. If you think we are fishing in a very average pond at the moment wait until next season when we have got absolutely no half decent players to sell to bolster the pathetic transfer kitty... Lets just hope Mr Harris comes up trumps very shortly, or Delia actually finally leaps into the real world and sells her majority shareholding for a realistic price. As I said in a previous post - if we weren''t talking to that guy from Switzerland who bought Southampton last week - WHY NOT !! Gunn as manager is a joke unfortunately - I might feel slightly more optimistic for the future if we had someone in place with experience and talent but unfortunately he has neither of these things - lets hope Crook and Butterworth do the business... Its sad - but the anger of the situation we are in still gets to me - as you can probably tell !!! and until those responsible have gone I can''t see a positive future on the pitch for the team.  

[quote user="*Superflash*"]I say good on Wotte for choosing to try and stay on and get the poorly run club out of the mess it was in. Say what you will about Delia, but Southampton was ran by an even worse bunch of muppets and that''s what contributed to their downfall. And for those saying Southampton will be better than us next year, do me a favour and put a sock in it. They''ve already lost some of their best players and will still struggle to bring people in. You have no idea who the new manager is going to be either. If it is Keegan as was rumoured a while ago then we''ll still be ahead of them. Southampton in recent years have been complete garbage and it''s a pity because their fans are a passionate and commited bunch. Gunn could easily be given his marching orders if a new consortium/owner came in. But at least like Wotte he had the guts to take the job on. Southampton at this rate will be lucky to finish anywhere close to the top half of the table and already our squad looks better on paper than their own. I do fear you will be eating your words next season or 2 seasons time if we still have Delia & MWJ in charge here. Yes Southampton have lost there better players - but look at the money they got for them - have we got anyone in our squad worth the transfer fees they recieved (even before they have recieved there new cash injection). I also think you should wait and see if we still have Clingan and Hoolihan at the start of the season before you start making statements like that. Interesting that you think they will struggle to bring people in - why is that ? Footballers are a bunch of mercenaries so will go where they can get paid the most. I also wouldn''t mind having a small wager with you that they will be getting a half decent manager in aswell, some one with that amount of money isn''t going to invest significant amounts of his £2bn plus personal fortune unless he believes in puts someone in charge of the team that can deliver success for them. I am fed up with people saying at least Gunn / Wotte had the guts to take managers jobs on when the team was in the mire - absolute rubbish. If someone offered you or me or anyone the NCFC Manager job, most people would give it a go - doesn''t mean we would be any good and more importantly certainly doesn ''t mean we should have been offered the job in the first place. You say Southampton have been garbage the last few years - you obviously haven''t been down to Carrow Road much then have you....as stated above if Delia and MWJ are still in charge in a couple of years I would wager a significant amount of money they will be in a better position than NCFC. The question for me is bearing in mind we are supposedly looking for investment, I wonder whether we were talking to this guy ?? IF NOT WHY THE HELL NOT...

Sorry if this has been discussed already, but I''ve been away for a couple of days and am just catching up on all things Norwich. I''m surprised no one seems to have picked up on the statement made by MWJ regarding seeking investment for the club. Basically he states "The bottom line is its very attractive to take over a football club but it''s not that attractive to put your hand in your pocket and dish out a few million for the squad because that doesn''t fit any business model". Now I don''t know if this is a mis quote or not, but taking it on face value it is absolutely clear that dear old Delia and Micheal have no intention whatsoever in handing over the reigns to someone else - all they are looking for is some mug to dig them out of the hole they took us into by giving the club some money for team strenghtening - no wonder we aren''t getting any investment if this is what they are looking for people to do - just give them some money. Well at least it now clear that we aren''t going to see the back of Delia anytime soon - which unfortunately means we won''t be progressing up the leagues anytime soon either.... 

[quote user="Yelverton Yella"]LQ, whilst there must be, among the fanbase, people who would fit the criteria, I think we would steuggle to flush them out! It might be fun to put together the required attributes and see who is prepared to claim they possess them!!! Here''s a starter: Experience of sitting on a Company Board Business/ financial acumen Preferably experienced in football management/administration (no, not that sort!) Hide like a rhinocerous Silver tongued excellent communicator Dynamic and forceful Able to straddle fences with alacrity (painful [:''(] )....... Possess no skeletons in the cupboard Feel free to add to the list!!   [/quote] and NO Mr Doncaster there is no point in you applying ............................!!  

I totally agree with this statement. If he had the money the set aside to do this then as a Director of NCFC he should be prepared to put this into the budget anyway. This is assuming this offer wasn''t over and above an amount he had already commited solely to the playing budget...

[quote user="Soldier on"] “The three players are part of the budgeted sum we had in mind,” Does that mean these 3 have come out of the 720K or the pre existing budget and that the 720K remains untouched?? [/quote] I read this as they had a player budget figure in mind including a ''guessimate'' of how many people wouldn''t claim their rebates. The fact in the same article where he states that the people that left their money with the club was ''alittle disappointing'' means that the 3 players we have brought in already have taken up a larger proportion of the budget than they had hoped. Meaning this leaves less for Gunn to bring in the additional players we so desperately need.  

[quote user="Yelverton Yella"]Be very careful of what you wish for.... I really can''t believe that any true fan could possibly wish to see us go down the administration route. In fairness, there was a time, before points deductions etc. when a few clubs (some quite close to home) appeared to lose their debt burden for very little consequence- apart from the plethora of small local creditors sent to the wall or forced to hang on by their fingertips of course-. Funnily enough, the effect can be worse if you own your ground as you then have a realisable asset which could, in theory, be sold on for other purposes to maximise return for the creditors.  The consequences now, with deductions, transfer bans etc. are far worse and I believe it will not be long before we see at least one League club forced into liquidation. At the risk of attracting the usual insults, I don''t actually care who owns the club providing they understand that football has to be the main focus and everything else is peripheral. I think DS and MW-J have learned a painful lesson over the last few years but the signs now, with the CEO appointment and the noises coming out of CR are that they HAVE learnt it. If McNally is given the power to do what needs to be done and, if as promised, we get new directors and new investment then I for one will be reasonably optimistic that we can turn round our fortunes on the field. Yes, DS and MW-J and co. have made mistakes and need to take a back seat now but, despite all the encouragement, I find it difficult to hate them or wish to see them ground into the dirt for their sins which largely amount to being too amateurish for their own or the club''s good. PS No, I don''t work for the club, am not related to the shareholders or a binner. [/quote] Good post and I agree with most of what you say. However I personally would have felt much more confident that things are going to fundamentally change and DS and MWJ had learnt their lessons IF and only IF they hadn''t appointed Bryan Gunn the day after they asked Mumbles and Doomcaster to go. This single action in isolation shows they still want to call the main shots and make the main decisions. This is why I personally believe things will only change for the good when they take much much more of a back seat - now if they had let the new CEO make the managerial appointment then that would have been different - but they didn''t did they.....