Morph

BBB, with you all the way on that one. Be brave now and at least get relegated with some semblance of dignity. I''d rather City went down knowing they had tried their best rather than disappearing with a wimper (like we are doing). The status quo does not cut it!!! ...

[quote]IN BUT unlike the posters who think he can''t do any wrong, I would see what he does in terms of team selection (and results / performances) until the end of this season. If this slide continues he n...[/quote] I''m with Yellow Rider on this one .......... IN. The Board needs to mark Worthy''s report card on this season and sit down at season''s end to discuss what he thinks should change to make things better. If we''re sitting mid-table of the fizzy league come Christmas next season, if I was a board member I would question his ability for the task. ...

[quote]All - we have no reason to moan because the boards''s strategy is being acted out exactly - no more, no less. What is happening was expected to happen. Therefore, theres no call at all for worthy''s hea...[/quote] Ayrton, do you think the club has moved forward this season under Worthy? Has Worthy moved forward from where he was as a manager a year ago? Personally I am concerned in his ability to learn this season and to notice that performances on the training pitch may not be translated to performances on the actual pitch. Personally I''m also disappointed, not by the lack of ambition, but by the general attitude that we are where we expected to be at the start of the season. I''d like to think the club had given it it''s best shot, within it''s prudent financial constraints. I remain unconvinced. More so given the poor state of the bottom half of the Premiership this season. That 17th place doesn''t seem like it was too hard a task given the correct mindset from players and staff alike. ...

[quote]How can anyone criticise worthy? he got us promoted. And as for the boring football that we play - i thought lobbing it up to hux and watching him rip apart defences was the best ive seen at Norwich i...[/quote] Sorry Northern I''m going to take issue with your comments. And it''s nothing to do with you personally. I''ve seen so many comments over the past few days in response to several posters who have come out and criticised Worthy, to the effect that they should go and support Chelsea or Man U if what they''re seeing at Norwich isn''t good enough. No! No! No! No! There''s loads of City supporters here who are complaining about what they''ve seen. Many of those pay good money to go and be entertained. They''re not being entertained with what''s on show at present. So rather than walking and going and supporting Chelsea or Man U they come on here and complain. You''d say they weren''t true City fans if they walked. Every one of us as a City supporter should expect our team to get better. If you can''t think you can improve at anything then you''ll continue to be stuck where you are. Burying our heads in the sand and thinking this is what I expected isn''t good enough!! We were top of the fizzy league last season by a fair margin when the dust finally settled. A few significant signings in the off-season (Helveg, Jonson, Charlton) had many of us believing that a credible finish above the relegation zone was possible. And don''t say we didn''t cos many of us did. The first half of the season a good few of us would have continued to believe that was realistic. Perhaps we were even convinced that Worthy had learned a thing or two to take the team forward. But since Christmas the team have seemingly rolled over and died. THAT isn''t good enough! If you pull on a yellow shirt you should do so with pride. Several of the current team don''t seem to share that belief. And the man who has to instil that belief is Worthy. Between now and the end of the season Worthy has to show us that he has the balls to turn things around and win over the team again. If he doesn''t then I sincerely hope the board sit down with him over the summer and tells him to sort it out. Yes, continuity is a good thing as long as you''re going in the right direction. Standing still isn''t good enough. Of all the teams in the bottom four only City haven''t improved. Both West Brom and Southampton have improved in their organisation and willingness to fight for the cause. Palace had that from earlier in the season. City had it until Christmas but it appears to have gone, a present taken back by Santa perchance? I want to see them get it back from now until season''s end. Not because I think they can survive, but because it will prove that they can pick themselves up and learn a hard lesson. If not then I fear for them automatically bouncing back next season. ...

Wasn''t sure whether to start a new topic on this or try to tack it on the back of one of the existing ones, but here goes...... Worthy is being somewhat panned in certain circles on this board, and possibly with some justification, but what I want to know is has the manager and coaching staff really changed in the years that he has been in charge? I got panned on another message board last season with a post about "Huff, Puff and no guile" after a poor 0-0 draw with West Brom where the team, coaches included, showed a lack of guile when it came to breaking down a stubborn opposition. It appeared at the time to be more about hard work and graft than real "cutting edge" football. So after the weekend Bolton debarcle (can''t describe it as anything else) it raises the question in my mind, has it been any different under Worthy in the years that he''s been in charge? It seems poignant to ask as everybody seems to think Worthy is the man to take us back when the inevitable occurs. I have to say that I don''t think he is UNLESS he sits down over the summer break with the board, staff and players alike and sorts out what they''ve done so badly wrong this season. From my perspective finishing 20th is a very poor showing in the top division. I firmly believed they were capable of scrapping out an above the relegation finish, but performances of late have been less than distinguished from staff and players alike. So has Worthy showed tactical awareness in the past? An understanding of the game and how to break down the opposition? An understanding of how to stop other teams "gutting" us? An understanding of how to get his team to perform with something other than the huff and puff? You tell me.....

[quote]I don''t think there have been that many actual calls for him to go unless I''m mistaken. However there has been some genuine debate about whether he has made the right decisions, got the right players ...[/quote] Tumbleweed, I think you''ve hit the nail on the head. I don''t think too many of the Worthy detractors are saying that the club should sack him. However, I think he still has so much to prove in the eyes of many of the posters here, me included. Yes, he got City back to the promised land. Yes, it was his first season in the highest level league in this country. But, and this is a HUGE but (for me anyway) he has not learned as quickly as he needs to to help the club survive in the Premiership. He appears to put personal feelings/friendships with players before player form, to the detriment of the team. Sure friendships with players and having players respect counts but when it comes down to it, the only thing that really matters as a manager are results. From my perspective, he couldn''t honestly be able to stand up and say "I got the results I think we deserved" (maybe he can). He''s persisted with off-form players and poor tactics to the detriment of the team. Clearly he doesn''t see what many posters here do otherwise he would have changed things. I hope for his sake and, more importantly, for the sake of the club that he does learn quicker and if (again big if) he does keep us here or bring us back he has learnt lessons that mean we will stay in the Premiership. ...

Apologies if this has already been discussed in another note but..... With Bolton''s performance against Arsenal at the weekend happened by El Hadj Daft, it did prove one thing - they are going to be throwing balls into the box like crazy (same applies to Southampton). So to negate that now is the time for Worthy to be brave and make changes to a back four in preparation for the run-in and next season. I think he has to go with: GK: Green RB: Helveg (if fit) CB: Doherty CB: Shackell LB: Charlton or Drury RM: Jonson CM: Safri/Stuart CM: Francis LM: Huckerby ST: Ashton ST: McKenzie Bench: Gallacher, Drury, Brennan/Stuart, Holt, McVeigh He needs to guys at the core of the defensive four that can deal with high balls with more conviction than we''ve had so far this season - Fleming isn''t it. If Charlton plays give him the captains armband. However, knowing Worthy we''ll get the same back four and suffer on set pieces all afternoon. ...

[quote]i dont see how any manager that hasnt done the job over at least a two year period could even be considered.Dave Stringer and Ken Brown both done fine jobs and i would pick one of those two.ken gettin...[/quote] Steve, you also have to remember that a the time it was City''s route into Europe as well had the Heysel Stadium incident not occurred. I remember driving down to Bournemouth listening to the announcement on Radio 5 how all English teams had been banned from Europe - that after being amongst the Canary faithful on that day at Wembley in ''85 when the Milk Cup was won. As for my opinion on who City''s best manager has been it has to be a toss up between Ken Brown, Dave Stringer and Mike Walker. Many have noted that Walker inherited the excellent foundations laid by Stringer and his predecessor Brown. However, I take my hat off to Walker for his tactical awareness in the games that City had in Europe, but I still think Stringer is the man who deserves my vote having taken City to two FA Cup Semis and that fourth placing in the top division. I was fortunate enough as a kid to meet all the ''72 squad of which Stringer was such an integral part. They used to do pre-season training in the grounds of a private school in Scratby where I was living at the time. Kick myself even now for turning down the offer of a game of cricket with those players. ...

Cap''n Jack will invariably jump in and complain about this note but I don''t care. The thread of discussion about Worthy and his defensive inadequacies made me ponder on the topic of who is the best City manager to date. Clearly the best manager is the one we have now ;-) Sorry, but I''m not sure on that one but I''ll support Nigel as he is who we have at the helm at present although at times I doubt his ability to adjust and learn quick enough. He will of course be remembered as the manager who got City back to the promised land after nine years in the wilderness, but does he have anything else up his sleeve? Anyway I tried to do some digging to find out records of the various managers that City have had. So here''s some data in no particular order: Ron Ashman (01/12/1962 to 31/05/1966) Record (W-D-L): 60-41-64 Ron Saunders (01/07/1969 to 16-11/1973) Record (W-D-L): 65-58-64 Second Division Winners 1971/72. League Cup Runners-Up 1973. John Bond (27/11/1973 to 31-10-1980) Record (W-D-L): 91-105-110 League Cup Runners-Up 1975. Ken Brown (01/11/1980 to 09/11/1987) Record (W-D-L): 131-85-114 Milk Cup Winners 1985, Second Division Winners 1985/86 David Stringer (09/11/1987 to 01/05/1992) Record (W-D-L): 85-56-75 Two FA Cup Semi-Finals and fourth place in the old Division One. Mike Walker (01/06/1992 to 06/01/1994) and (01/08/1996 to 30/04/1998) Record (W-D-L): 36-20-24 and 32-26-40 Most famous for City''s highest ever Premier League placing and the resulting European adventure with the great win in Munich. However, also remembered for his acrimonious exit to Everton and his unsuccessful second spell in charge. John Deehan (12/01/1994 to 31/07/1995) Record (W-D-L): 17-25-30 Most notably remembered as the man who had the reins when City got relegated from the Premiership. Gary Megson (21/12/1995 to 31/07/1996) Record (W-D-L): 5-9-13 Probably not worthy to even be listed here given his lack of games in charge. Bruce Rioch (01/07/1998 to 13/03/2000) Record (W-D-L): 30-31-32 Nigel Worthington (4/12/2000 to present) Record (W-D-L): 85-51-73 First Division Winners 2003/04. ...

Don''t want to say it Cap''n, but people remember you for what you did most recently not for what you did last year or years before that. If City go down Worthy will be on everyone''s mind as being the man who took them down - ignoring the fact he got them there in the first place. I''m not saying I agree with any of this thread just trying to point out one of life''s eternal inconsistencies.

[quote]The first part of your post is a fair point. In response to the knee-jerk question. I would say that it is exactly what I expected, but that doesn''t mean I agree with it. I don''t think that knee-jerk...[/quote] WN, my argument against that would be that waiting until next season would have been too late. It is probably too late already, but the defense has not been performing well at all. With every passing game the chances of escape are reduced. Worthy finally made changes to a back four that had been woeful over the recent games, something that many of the posters had already commented on. He had few options that he could use for the change, but as many posters have noted previously, Shackell had shown in previous outings that he was capable of something - his performance against Newcastle in the cup. It''s a real shame that Worthy has been so immovable in his team selection thinking that it''s got to the point where City are all but down before he tries to fix it. Shackell has shown us enough, irrespective of his age or first team experience, that he can handle the stage and should be allowed to stay in there til season end - just give the guy a partner who is capable of playing at the same level as him with the same committment and understanding. Is that asking too much of Worthy? ...

[quote]DD -- you''re absolutely right. Greeno should have claimed that cross despite the ball-watching from the defenders. Shackell (who performed superbly) was not aware that Kezman was where he was for his ...[/quote] ny, can''t disagree with you or DDiM for the comment about Green. However, there''s clearly a confidence problem in the heart of the defense as witnessed by that third goal. Too many people are looking at other people for help rather than going and sorting it themselves. Fleming was just as guilty for not attacking the ball and then compounded it by looking to Green for help. Green probably has little confidence in his back four and the back four have reduced confidence in Green. Worthy needed to sort it months ago but he should now sort it for the end of season run-in so they at least go out with a good solid effort to stand them in good stead for whatever next season brings.

[quote]So, basically we agree that it was a risk to throw him in and gamble with a loss of confidence, but so far, it has been a succesful gamble? Although, it is too early to judge completely... as we both ...[/quote] WN, how has playing him now been a gamble with regard to a blow to his confidence? What must the performances of the previous back four and Shacks inability to convince Worthy to play him, have done to his confidence? As a player I would have been wondering what I have to do to convince the manager that what I had to offer was superior to what was already on show. How do you think he feels when he sees one defender kept in the team (Fleming) when one his colleagues is benched/dropped for less poor performances (Doherty)? Going back to your earlier comments about knee-jerk reactions to Shackells two performances, I can''t see why people would behave otherwise. What has been on show has been poor beyond belief from a number of the previous back four. All Shackell had to do was come in to the side and perform better than those we already had there. I think he''s done that and more so it''s no wonder he''s getting rave reviews on this message board. He''s shown more leadership qualities in his two performances than you''ve had all season from Fleming. An ability to organise the back four well beyond his tender years. ZLF, you comment that you don''t think he''s been a success at keeping his opponents at bay in his two performance so far. He is one of four at the back there and he''s shown more than two of the others at keeping his opponents at bay. Does that make him a failure? No. Is the defense still a failure? Yes. But he''s only one of four/five. Worthy has to be brave between now and the end of the season and leave Shackell in and use the remaining games to find the right partner for Shackell to give City a decent backbone. Whilst we''re not down I can''t see us staying up, the other teams around us have got organised a lot quicker than City have - if you can say that we''ve got organised. ...

Can''t disagree with either of you there. Fleming had the old deer in the headlights look. I was always taught at school that when the ball coming in from a corner comes near you, you go and attack it. It was very much a case of "ooops I can''t get this" followed by "oh damn I hope Holty can".Sorry but I think Doherty needs a go in there along side Shackell. I thought Shackell was brilliant. A Captain in the making there....

If you''ve got Winamp on your PC you can use the following link:http://66.246.218.107:3563/;stream.nsvWorks for me anyway...

Actually ZLF I''d be harsher on Worthy than that. He appears to have let personal relationships with players affect his judgement over whether those players should play. With any other Premiership manager at the helm would Fleming still be on the teamsheet? Would Francis if he continues to disappear from games? He appears to have let a few that have kept on his good side dominate the team line-up irrespective of their performances. Where''s Safri been? What about McVeigh? Why has it taken so long for Shackell to get in the team? And why Shackell at the expense of Doherty? A player should be based on his ability not on whether he buys you a pint in the pub after the match, or whether he wears the captain''s armband. ...

We''re shipping goals like they''re going out of fashion so why not try for the old boring 0-0 over the next few games. Shame all the squad aren''t fit but in that vein try this...... GK: Green LB: Charlton LCB: Shackell RCB: Doherty RB: Edworthy LM: Brennan LCM: Safri RCM: Stuart RM: Helveg ST: Ashton ST: McKenzie/Huckerby/Jonson With the fullbacks playing in the wide midfield areas as well they have a chance to interchange with the players behind them. With Safri and Stuart in the middle of the park you have two holding midfield players prepared to grind out the defensive work. Who cares about scoring anyway we only go and concede too many at the other end. ...

Wiz, you didn''t mention the other proposal that had been knocking around and that was Premier League 2. Move the "stratospheric" teams into a top tier and the lesser teams into a lower level Premier League. That would put City in the lower level Premier League, but put Arsenal, Chelsea (a team I DID NOT liken us to if you bothered to actually read my text), Man U, Liverpool plus ?Personally I''d be happier if it stayed as it is. Bring on the Arsenals, Chelseas and so forth. City might get a cuffing but at least the punters get to see the Premier League top stars.The thing I think you would also find with a Euro-Super League is that much more of the TV money would go there instead of the nation''s top league.Aren''t the punters getting an effective European League at the moment anyway with the changes that were made to the group stages of the Champions League (a competition now devalued in my opinion due to the presence of non-champions) PLUS the group stage changes that were made to the UEFA Cup. Maybe you''ll see a new Euro-cup competition called the "Real Champions League" with only champions present with the Champions League relegated to being the "Lesser Champions League" and the UEFA Cup staying the same....

Actually the extension to this would be to require that clubs limit their squad sizes. Then the salary cap would be applied across a defined number of players. That''s what they do in the NFL and if that hasn''t been driven by TV money in past years I don''t know what is. The team has a cap that it must get it''s total salaries down to. If a player can''t negotiate what he thinks is a fair contract with his current players in line with their team cap then he is free to seek employment elsewhere. Mind you in the NFL there is not really something like a transfer fee, although future draft picks may be included as part of trade negotiations between teams for players.I have to agree that I think something has to be done to stop the monied teams destroying the competitiveness of the national leagues throughout Europe. If a cap of some form is the way to make it work then have at it....

I''m sorry but I don''t buy this argument that says Shackell can''t play because he doesn''t have any Premiership experience. Why can''t he? Fleming doesn''t have any Premiership experience does he (somebody correct me if I''m wrong - joined from Oldham in 1997)? The only difference is that Fleming is 34 and Shackell is only 22 so he has 12 years more first team experience to draw on.Again this isn''t a good example, but how is it that other teams are prepared to blood their youngsters at this level and not us? Middlesbrough perhaps? Wasn''t Downing a 20 year old unknown until this season? What about Tony McMahon a full back at the same club? What''s the difference?It''s not as if we''re suggesting that he be thrown into a backline along with three other junior players is it. If he''s good enough then he''s old enough. Now it''s like we''re saying he''s not good enough, but how many have actually seen him play in his natural position? Is he good enough? Is he any worse than what we already have?...

This may already have been answered somewhere in the mists of time, but if there are any players who could help bolster the injury ridden squad that are out of contract with their current clubs can City still sign them? ...

ZLF, you have to wonder what effect Worthy''s approach has on the moral of players on the fringes of the first team. What must Shackell think at this moment in time knowing that on paper he was in for a first league start with Eddy and Helveg injured and Charlton fielded whilst holding a slight injury. The "Fleming is on the team sheet so he must play centre half" can''t cut it for much longer. Sure Fleming is club captain but he should still have to earn his place just like everybody else. Just doesn''t seem to be the case anymore. Like one of the earlier posters I had to listen to commentary from Roy and Neil and downright depressing listening it was too. ...

I have to say I''m surprised Worthy didn''t adjust the back four and put Charlton in the middle and push Fleming out to right back. He also had Shackell on the bench so re-organising the defense would not have caused too many problems. If Charlton''s comments are correct then he played with an injury which makes Shackells position on the bench even more farcical. Shackell in at centre back and Fleming out to right back. You have to despair with Worthy and the coaching staff when the defensive reorganisation is noted by so many supporters. ...

Wiz will no doubt pillary me for making this comment but... I watched a little of the Spurs v West Brom game on the live MOTD and the Albion were playing with an approach that appeared to be sadly lacking from City''s performance yesterday. Somebody had noted this in the long thread that had been spurred by YankeeCanary about defensive frailities last week. Each Albion player from the midfield back through the defence was quickly closing down the nearest opposition player when he received the ball yesterday. Many putting in the tackles needed to regain possession. How many times in City''s match did you see a midfielder or defender follow their man but a) NOT close down the space given to the player; and b) NOT make a tackle to prevent the player going forward? Although we''re slagging off the defense from yesterday''s performance there were three chances that City had themselves to make it a contest. Brennan''s 6 yard blunder. Huckerby''s swing my left boot and fall over. Ashton''s force Friedel into a good save. A little more clinical finishing and it could have been a completely different game. ...

[quote]Damn I''d forgot about him Tumbleweed!. I''m not sure he''ll go WHEN we stay up though, are you?. If, if we go down then yes, I would hope his transfer fee would be added to the pot, along with any othe...[/quote] Wiz, you''ve got to believe with the performances of both Almunia and Lehmann at Arsenal this season that Green must be a candidate for a place there. You might even argue that both Howard and Carroll haven''t been exemplary at Manure either. So there''s another club who might want a keeper. I''d like to see him stay with the club as he''s clearly an integral part of building a solid defense, but if you put yourself in his shoes and you were offered a position at a club plying it''s trade in the Champions League wouldn''t you take it? Wouldn''t hurt his international claims either.....