why the "outers" cant win.....

[Beefy is a legend 224]

[quote user="City1st"][quote user="Beefy is a legend"]True enough Purple. I happen to believe that our Club doesn''t deserve it right now, given that we are in the most successful era we''ve had for 20 years.

Of course, we all have our opinions. It''s just that some are based more on reason and evidence. Others are based on emotional reaction and instinct. I know which provides a more solid pathway to truth.[/quote]

perhaps you could point out where these attacks on the club are coming from - other than your fervent imagination .............. or lying as it is otherwise known

[/quote]

Purple - I''ll take your point there. A healthy scepticism is to be commended, I have no problem with that.

City1st - there have been plenty of attacks forthcoming, certainly on this message board with reference to the manager being clueless, threads such as ''McNally for the axe'' and disgraceful criticism of Delia and MWJ. I''ll also include in evidence the ''Hughton Out'' banner that greeted the players and management at Fulham.

[Beefy is a legend 224]

[quote user="The gut"]For me the best part about being a football fan is basing everything on emotional reaction and instinct.

If I enjoyed watching maths lessons I''d do that instead of going to football.

I think this is one of the reasons fans disagree so much - somewhere along the line football has bred a generation of stat lovers. I can see why these type of fans would favour our Chris.[/quote]

Gut - I have no problem with what you say. It''s an emotional game, I can''t tell you how mental I went in the Barclay when Benno stuck that one away on Saturday. I''d never want to take that away.

My point is that, if you are then going to take a view such as ''Hughton must be sacked'', you need to take a more considered, dispassionate, business like view of the situation - if you didn''t you''d end up with the type of decisions that are afflicting Hull City and Cardiff City right now - emotional owners acting instinctively and throwing their weight around.

I''ve no problem with anyone being emotional in the midst of a game, but if you are going to come on here giving it the big''un about sacking the manager and the board, you better have some solid arguments to back up your position or you are going to meet resistance, not least of all because those kind of negative opinions do translate into poor atmospheres inside the ground - I''d much prefer a more positive fan reaction, like we got against Hull - the fans stayed with the team even though it wasn''t a great game, and that helped us to a crucial win.

[Bill 1,788]

oh dearthey are still not attacks upon the club - but individuals within the clubeven then I should not take some of the more bizarre as any serious reflection of what the majority of fans thinkI have seen NO '' disgraceful criticism of Delia and MWJ.'' - perhaps you just made that upone banner, that all

now Beefy you must stop making up things as folk will think you are LDC

[Beefy is a legend 224]

Oh dear, City1st, oh dearie me.

http://services.pinkun.com/forums/pinkun/cs/forums/3050851/ShowPost.aspx

Maybe refer to this thread, entitled ''Delia and MWJ must resign''...

[Bill 1,788]

Hardly ''disgraceful criticism''just as the post below is not either -[quote user="lake district canary"]Its just like I said yesterday.   If

the players aren''t up to it, the manager isn''t up to it, McNally isn''t

up to it, the board isn''t up to it, the owners aren''t up to it and imo

some of the fans aren''t up to it.  

[/quote] Calling for the owners to speak up is not disgracefulYou are as bad as your mate

[Beefy is a legend 224]

Respectfully I''d suggest that the suggestion that Delia and MWJ should resign simply because they a) haven''t spoken up or b) haven''t sacked the manager, is a disgraceful attack.

They are majority shareholders. They are not the mouthpiece of the Club and certainly Delia has taken more of a backseat these days which has insulated her from the kind of regular criticism she received in years gone by. Why should they speak up now any more than last season, or the season before?

The title of the thread is sufficient to constitute a disgraceful attack in my view.

Or do you think they should resign?

[nutty nigel 7,534]

This thread has taken an interesting turn since I was last here. I personally can''t see where anyone can have a problem with posters who have opposite views. The Gut holds different views to me but we don''t have a personal problem with eachother. However I do have problems with posters like Reggie who lie and make stuff up to support their views. And it seems it''s not just the club he lies about. Who are these other usernames that Beefy has? Disgraceful tactics from a gobshyte who was losing his argument.

 

Part of me agrees there''s no need for this type of thread. But part of me notices that these threads were fair game last week. Not just calling out a group of people in general but actually naming individuals on the thread title. It''s funny how standards change after we win a game...

 

 

[Beefy is a legend 224]

Nige, I salute you sir.

I''m off to stick my head in the freezer for an hour...goodnight.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="City1st"]oh dearthey are still not attacks upon the club - but individuals within the clubeven then I should not take some of the more bizarre as any serious reflection of what the majority of fans thinkI have seen NO '' disgraceful criticism of Delia and MWJ.'' - perhaps you just made that upone banner, that all

now Beefy you must stop making up things as folk will think you are LDC

[/quote]Good morning chaps. As usual the instigators of this little spat have lit the blue touch paper and watched the fireworks. Classic tactics.Of course C1st is correct. There is nothing intrinsically wrong in criticising the club or individuals in it. Particularly if that criticism is well founded. Are the Cardiff fans wrong to criticise Tan ? Were the Hull fans wrong to have a pop at the people running their club on Sat afternoon ? I''m not equating our situation to them, but merely using it as illustration.But of course the hard-liners in the no change camp still have this patrician/ever so ''umble outlook where no-one in authority should be qustioned. Thus is formed thir narrow agenda. And of course, as illustrated throughout this thread when Nige, Lakey and, now (if he really is a separate person!), Beefy  , cover up this flaw in their story by  dishing out ludicrously outrageous insults at large groups of fans, stating claims without evidence,making stuff up , or lying. (Oh the irony of Nige accusing me of that !)As regards the initial Beefy rant that annoyed me (''trying to hound the manager out'')...well I suppose it all depends on your definition of ''hounding out''. But I''d suggest that the generally accepted meaning involves protest groups, demonstrations, booing at matches, lots of banners, chants calling for the manager''s removal, poison pen letters, and that sort of thing. Of course there haven''t been any of those (one, yes ONE banner was noted at the Fulham game apparently), but of course that doesn''t fit into Beefy''s agenda , does it ?So what does he do? follow the lead of his mentor, NN, and invent a cause to get all uppity about,and dream up some ''facts''.Anyway , as the basis of this whole spat is a problem that has been invented in the darker recesses of someone''s head, I plan to bow out of this particular one, as doubtless the day will bring much more important and, above all real, topics to discuss. Though I''m pretty confident that the usual suspects will dream up some more false incinuations and lies to derail those threads as well.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="City1st"]oh dearthey are still not attacks upon the club - but individuals within the clubeven then I should not take some of the more bizarre as any serious reflection of what the majority of fans thinkI have seen NO '' disgraceful criticism of Delia and MWJ.'' - perhaps you just made that upone banner, that allnow Beefy you must stop making up things as folk will think you are LDC[/quote]Good morning chaps. As usual the instigators of this little spat have lit the blue touch paper and watched the fireworks. Classic tactics.Of course C1st is correct. There is nothing intrinsically wrong in criticising the club or individuals in it. Particularly if that criticism is well founded. Are the Cardiff fans wrong to criticise Tan ? Were the Hull fans wrong to have a pop at the people running their club on Sat afternoon ? I''m not equating our situation to them, but merely using it as illustration.But of course the hard-liners in the no change camp still have this patrician/ever so ''umble outlook where no-one in authority should be qustioned. Thus is formed thir narrow agenda. And of course, as illustrated throughout this thread when Nige, Lakey and, now (if he really is a separate person!), Beefy  , cover up this flaw in their story by  dishing out ludicrously outrageous insults at large groups of fans, stating claims without evidence,making stuff up , or lying. (Oh the irony of Nige accusing me of that !)As regards the initial Beefy rant that annoyed me (''trying to hound the manager out'')...well I suppose it all depends on your definition of ''hounding out''. But I''d suggest that the generally accepted meaning involves protest groups, demonstrations, booing at matches, lots of banners, chants calling for the manager''s removal, poison pen letters, and that sort of thing. Of course there haven''t been any of those (one, yes ONE banner was noted at the Fulham game apparently), but of course that doesn''t fit into Beefy''s agenda , does it ?So what does he do? follow the lead of his mentor, NN, and invent a cause to get all uppity about,and dream up some ''facts''.Anyway , as the basis of this whole spat is a problem that has been invented in the darker recesses of someone''s head, I plan to bow out of this particular one, as doubtless the day will bring much more important and, above all real, topics to discuss. Though I''m pretty confident that the usual suspects will dream up some more false incinuations and lies to derail those threads as well.[/quote]

Utterly, utterly ridiculous.   You would hope that as time goes on the people on this board would develop a little respect and STOP making things up.    One word changed or added when decrying what someone has said can change the meaning totally.  Its twisting, purposely mis-understanding what a poster is saying and misleading others.    Reggie and City 1st are making an art of it - but they are doing it badly.  It must be so obvious to most people. For instance - I say A FEW outers are too extreme in their views and back come City 1st or Reggie saying that ldc is saying EVERY outer is too extreme, thus escalating the debate to a new level, dragging in others who think that I have said something more controversial than what I actually intended. It is the kind of thing that drives sensible people away  because they can see that people are not arguing honestly.  Start discussing things sensibly and these little "spats" wouldn''t happen so often.

[Reggie Strayshun 0]

[quote user="lake district canary"] City 1st or Reggie saying that ldc is saying EVERY outer is too extreme,

[/quote]There we go..as if by magic. Lakey makes something up about me that I never said.I defy you to find anywhere where I''ve said that your opinion is that every Outer is too extreme .I was truly hoping Lakey that you were not going to go down the histrionic NN path of making false accusations and name calling, as you are basically a very good poster, but it does seem you are falling into the trap....

[Guest]

Hi Reggie,

Out of interest, who are these "hard-liners" within the "no change" camp, who are so humble they suggest no one in authority should ever be questioned?

[Tumbleweed 106]

I don''t really favour commenting on board focussed threads but I''ll make an exception.

The issue I have with the title is that in these debates there are not really any "winners" or "losers". There are simply those with varying strengths of different opinions and different ways of expressing them. And very few actual facts.

We are all united in our love of NCFC and our desire for things to get as good as they possibly could. How that happens sparks all these threads and pub debate throughout the land.

I''m still one who believes that CH is not the right long term manager and that as someone has said does not seem to be making any progress. But if he stays and we go on to push higher up the league in future years, I haven''t lost anything just as if we get relegated and CH gets sacked I haven''t won anything. In those scenarios we could have done even better with another manager or we could have done even worse with a new one. We will never know and there is no way of ever knowing. So how can you "win" or "lose"?

I base my opinions on what I see and read and hear and what I think will happen in the future. Sometimes it occurs and sometimes it doesn''t and most often it is somewhere in the middle. Some will agree and some won''t. But that is one of the great things about following this game, we can debate anything at any time and probably forever, but it is isn''t about winning, it is about exchanging views.

And the banner? Well those who criticise "keyboard warriors" should be happy that someone is putting their views in the open. And a first team player shouldn''t be too surprised either- did he really think that the many many message boards were full of people not expressing that view? Is he really so sensitive to get so upset? And why does it take a banner to get the team playing a bit better some days later? Why did it not galvanise them that evening? Questions, questions, questions.........

[BigFish 1,986]

Ultimately this is a rather sterile debate if you take the words of the posters on face value. The idea that we all want City to do well (in the short term) would appear to be false when the very visible disappointment at beating Hull amongst a small minority is taken into account. Even Tumbleweed''s comments show that long term there are a number of supporters who feel whatever Hughton achieves he is not the man to take Norwich "forward"

What does take the club forward even mean? Win the Champions League, just qualify, Europe, 10th. This continuously gets parrotted by posters without any real understanding of what they are saying.

Truth is this is what the Prem is like for a club like Norwich and there is no manager, not Hughton, Lambert or the Wizard of Oz who is able to change that. It is just about scratching out the points to finish between 8th and 17th. To pretend otherwise is nonsense.

And before anyone talks about becoming an "established Prem club" just have in mind that every year, usually at least one of these gets relegated.

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Reggie Strayshun"][quote user="lake district canary"] City 1st or Reggie saying that ldc is saying EVERY outer is too extreme, [/quote]There we go..as if by magic. Lakey makes something up about me that I never said.I defy you to find anywhere where I''ve said that your opinion is that every Outer is too extreme .I was truly hoping Lakey that you were not going to go down the histrionic NN path of making false accusations and name calling, as you are basically a very good poster, but it does seem you are falling into the trap....[/quote]

You have taken that part of a sentence out of its context to give it a totally different meaning!!!!!!!!!!!   Exactly what I am talking about!!!!!!!!!!   It was supposed to be an example of what is said.   I say  " a little " and someone changes it to "a lot" . 

Somwhere yesterday, not on this thread - I can''t find it now - I made a comment on how "some" posters are spoiling things for the club and it came back via yourself that I had said "a large number" of  posters are spoilng things for the club".     A slight exageration here, a slight exageration there changes and escalates the argument beyond what was intended.  I try not to twist what other people say. I may be opinionated, but I try to be open and clear about what I am saying.  Some other people either purposely or not, change what posters have said to bolster their argument.  Its not clever.   

[Tumbleweed 106]

BigFish- I may have an overly optimistic view of human nature but I''m assuming that even those wishing for a Hull victory on Saturday would have been doing so in the belief that it was in the club''s best long term interests. So I guess that while destructive in the short term they would still argue that is in the interests of that long term desire to see the club prosper, survive and develop.

FWIW while I do not believe in CH as a manager, I''m starting to incline to agree with what I believe LDC''s view to be that the time for his exit is May (barring another humiliation (for example a 0-3 or 0-4 in the next game)).

[lake district canary 4,531]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

FWIW while I do not believe in CH as a manager, I''m starting to incline to agree with what I believe LDC''s view to be that the time for his exit is May (barring another humiliation (for example a 0-3 or 0-4 in the next game)).[/quote]

Just to clarify - I think he will be here till May regardless, but don''t think he will exit then necessarily.  If successful in improving results over the next few weeks and keeping us up, I would see no reason for him to go, as he would have succeeded in his remit to keep us in the league and develop the squad. I still think that the third year is the year we will see the best out of the squad building process.    And if the third year is better and more successful, he could be here for sometime after that too.

[nutty nigel 7,534]

So Reggie bowed out only to return 29 minutes later to have another pop....

 

I see posters on here with different views to me. Tumbleweed and The Gut spring to mind. Seems I can rub along just fine with them. No spats just different opinions. But then you get dear old Reg. Not content to rub along with different opinions he just makes stuff up which makes him think his opinion is somewhat better than others. Instead of bowing out Reggie why don''t you tell us what Beefy''s other user names are?

 

Tumbleweed, I agree with you about the title of this thread that mostly there can be no winners or losers although I''d say that the fans who wanted City to lose on Saturday definitely were losers. But whatever happens neither you or I would be a winner or a loser just because our opinions are different. But I''ll say again what I said yesterday. last week this type of thread was just fine because it was aimed at people like me. In fact one such thread had my name in the title and that''s not the first time this season that''s happened to me after a defeat. It seems it''s only when we win a game that this type of thread becomes unnacceptable. Why do you reckon that is?

 

 

[rowdyman 0]

[quote user="lappinitup"][quote user="rowdyman"]first win in 9 about 10 in 40 plus dont make good reading for any manager.....[/quote]Last ten games.....W3  D3  L4.I guess it depends on what you''re reading ricky. [;)][/quote]

just the results section mate its on here bud

[BigFish 1,986]

[quote user="Tumbleweed"]

BigFish- I may have an overly optimistic view of human nature but I''m assuming that even those wishing for a Hull victory on Saturday would have been doing so in the belief that it was in the club''s best long term interests.

FWIW while I do not believe in CH as a manager, I''m starting to incline to agree with what I believe LDC''s view to be that the time for his exit is May (barring another humiliation (for example a 0-3 or 0-4 in the next game)).[/quote]

The first point is what those who hold that attitude would have us believe or even believe themselves. That does not make it true. They deeply deep[ly want to be right more than anything and by right they want Hughton gone, whatever the results. It seems this is close to where you now find yourself. Not now, but May, whatever. But should we finish 12th would you really expect the club to let Hughton go? And in this case would it even be the right decision?