Passive vs Active footballers

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

There have been many threads on here comparing and contrasting Hughton with Lambert, their styles of management, character, approach to games and eye for a player.

A quote from the Tierney article today highlighted a distinct difference with the implication inherent in the approx phrase "I need someone to get me going". The inference was clearly that Lambert got Tierney "going" and Hughton didn''t.

The messianic qualities of Lambert have long been discussed on here, and it of course plays well with passionate fans, but as a professional should players really require this to perform? Can it be deduced that lower league players can be "wound up" to perform at a higher level, but that players with real class have an inherent ability and perhaps a "self-starting" quality that allows them to perform to a consistent and repeated level? Can it also be observed that Hughton expects such an attitude - and only selects or favours such players - allowing for the club to avoid the "boom and bust" of hyped players in favour of a solid, managed squad of self-starters. This of course means he may appear unspectacular or less passionate in comparison, but is it not the case that not only is this more sophisticated long term management (in the truest sense), but that also the players themselves develop a self-reliance and a deep-core belief in their own abilities, rather than passively waiting for a messiah to give it to them....

[nu_matik 184]

Anyone else think maybe Lambert could be the man who gets the team going and instills passion and Culverhouse is the tactician..? Where as Hughton is a more direct tactician and well, im not sure what them other two do?!!

[chicken 0]

I wouldn''t read too much into it if I am honest.

Lambert and Culverhouse knew that they would have to fire up the team to stand a chance in the first season up, mainly because I think we had surpassed even Lamberts expectations and achieved automatic promotion. Some of the players we signed we pretty risky in terms of whether they would cut it and we needed that sort of pressure on the team to achieve non-stop.

However, whether that is viable/sustainable longer term is another argument. Lambert doesn''t seem to be doing that as much at Villa. They certainly haven''t appeared as fired up. I think it''s why he does prefer younger players - it''s because you can ''squeeze'' them that bit more.

Hughton is a calmer hand. I think he wants a steady and even ship. And to do that you need calm and composed players for the most part. I think what frustrated him last season was when we got panicky.

Premier league teams that panic tend to lose. That''s when the other teams start to pick you apart.

The real key is to be able to be calm, measured and composed and know when to be able to switch on the fire. Look at how the top teams like Man Utd, Arsenal and some of the others, step it up a gear for periods of the game - and can dictate and control the pace.

The problem with how we played in the first season up under Lambert is that whilst we pushed the pace we were never really in control of it, our defence couldn''t handle it for starters.

[lake district canary 4,831]

"Parma Ham''s gone mouldy - There have been many threads on here comparing and contrasting Hughton with Lambert, their styles of management, character, approach to games and eye for a player.

A quote from the Tierney article today highlighted a distinct difference with the implication inherent in the approx phrase "I need someone to get me going". The inference was clearly that Lambert got Tierney "going" and Hughton didn''t.

The messianic qualities of Lambert have long been discussed on here, and it of course plays well with passionate fans, but as a professional should players really require this to perform? Can it be deduced that lower league players can be "wound up" to perform at a higher level, but that players with real class have an inherent ability and perhaps a "self-starting" quality that allows them to perform to a consistent and repeated level? Can it also be observed that Hughton expects such an attitude - and only selects or favours such players - allowing for the club to avoid the "boom and bust" of hyped players in favour of a solid, managed squad of self-starters. This of course means he may appear unspectacular or less passionate in comparison, but is it not the case that not only is this more sophisticated long term management (in the truest sense), but that also the players themselves develop a self-reliance and a deep-core belief in their own abilities, rather than passively waiting for a messiah to give it to them...."

Good post, phgm.  Totally agree with this.   Comparing Lambert and Hughton is interesting, both very good managers in their own way,but completely different.   I was always impressed by the competitiveness shown by a Lambert team, never give in, winning  against the odds,always coming through. He was always going to get players who would respond to this kind of management - a kind of fiery, almost manic approach to get players playing at their maximum.   Hughton is such a contrast and  expects the players to take more of the responsibility.  Those that haven''t been able to adapt to that have gone or will go.  Its part of the development we will see under Hughton - he has got us through the first, most difficult stage in the transition and its going to be fascinating seeing how we develop from here. 

[Mr Brownstone 0]

[quote user="nu_matik"]

Anyone else think maybe Lambert could be the man who gets the team going and instills passion and Culverhouse is the tactician..? Where as Hughton is a more direct tactician and well, im not sure what them other two do?!!

[/quote]

 

That is exactly as I undestand it. Culverhouse used to take the training during the week with Lambert about the place but not directly involved, he''d then get inolved the day before the game, put an arm round the players and give them all a lift so to speak. Hughton is much more hands on.

[Norfolk Mustard 106]

When any manager (football or otherwise) NEEDS to ''motivate'' his team each week, the question is ''what do you do to get a performance from them the following week?'' Because next week they''ll need even more of the very same stuff - even MORE motivation!

 

If YOUR motivational style is the main fuel those team members rely on it''s a real problem! What if you''re not there? What if you''re off sick? What if you''re on hols? Your team performance may well nosedive in your absence. That''s why SELF motivation of team members is the by far the best way.

 

Needy team members/players are simply harder work aren''t they?

 

Paul McVeigh has a book coming out soon (4^th July) entitled ‘The Stupid Footballer is Dead’. It covers this very subject. See http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/news-and-comment/read-all-about-it-the-stupid-footballer-is-dead-8660557.html

 

A football manager can’t do their thinking for them when they’re on the field of play either can he?

 

How we each respond to an event in life varies enormously - take a set-back in football for example; our team gives away a penalty. Would you rather the team use their energy to argue with the Ref (Snodgrass style)? or maintain their focus and deal with the goal against should it be scored? Whichever action is taken, in the Premier League the margins are minimal and could be worth £ millions. It is the difference between success or otherwise and it really matters.

 

My observations:

• Lambert obtained higher-than-expected performance from decent technical & average mentality players
• Hughton appears more interested in top technical and highly self-motivated players

 

Supportive Evidence:

The NCFC Youth team have just won the FA Youth Cup partly as a result of receiving years of proper psychology training of the type I am referring to. See http://think-pro.co.uk/performance-proof/ 

 

[lake district canary 4,831]

[quote user="Norfolk Mustard"] How we each respond to an event in life varies enormously - take a set-back in football for example; our team gives away a penalty. Would you rather the team use their energy to argue with the Ref (Snodgrass style)? or maintain their focus and deal with the goal against should it be scored? Whichever action is taken, in the Premier League the margins are minimal and could be worth £ millions. It is the difference between success or otherwise and it really matters. [/quote]

I always think back to Brian Clough.   Achieved the results he did because he got the players to focus and relax.   No arguing with refs, no losing their tempers and losing focus, no tantrums, no trying to get free kicks, no nonsense.   Just 100% focus - on playing the ball.    The relax part  comes from knowing you are completely focused and will as a result play better. 

Ok, Brian Clough is in the past, but the principles hold true and are universal.   There is a series of books called the "Inner Game" (Inner game of - tennis - ski-ing - music etc) .   These point to the same principles of relaxed concentration as being a way of getting the best out of any activity you are trying to do.  ps - perhaps someone could point Snoddy in the direction of one of these books!

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

Can it also be observed that the "boom and bust" style of messianic foot all management is in synchronisation with the relatively short lifespan of managers at (almost) any given club? The paradox being that one ultimately reinforces the other and correspondingly ensures the bust? In this context a "club builder" like Hughton is not only more desirable for a wise chief exec, but is likely to also be demonstrably less "theatrical" (ergo "attractive"?) with players and fans. Whilst this may produce a lukewarm start and welcome , does this not show a bravery, a strength of character and a long term commitment to a project? References to constructive involvement in youth teams (see above / Kyle McFadden quotes) would lend weight to this. As I posted in eye of the negative Hughton storm, the indications have been there for some time that both the Club - and Hughton - view this as a long term appointment.

[Norfolk Mustard 106]

Every action we make comes as a result of our personal thinking style - ''It''s an inside job!''

I agree; Cloughie''s standards (no arguing) led to fantastic success for his teams didn''t it?

Here''s a useful message for this subject:

SUMO

It stands for ‘Shut Up & Move On’ and Paul McGee does it better than most:

http://www.thesumoguy.com/sumo-guy-in-action.aspx

(Under ‘See the SUMO Guy in Action’ click the middle link entitled ‘see Paul speaking at an International Conference’ - he’s entertaining!)

 

[flying high up in the sky! 1]

The easiest way to compare the managers is look at our prem placing under both managers. Lambert 12th hughton 11th tells you all you need really.

[Syteanric 1]

anyone who cant motivate themselves to play in front of 35,000 fans at some grounds, earning thousands of pounds a week, with their pick of the women needs to have a serious and long look at themselves....

[Orford65 0]

[quote user="jas the barclay king"]anyone who cant motivate themselves to play in front of 35,000 fans at some grounds, earning thousands of pounds a week, with their pick of the women needs to have a serious and long look at themselves....

[/quote].........and ask themselves whether they are in the right job! They should be flexible enough to be able to kick their own arse when required.But, then it maybe boils down to whether too much money and an easy lifestyle leads some players unable to put their foot on the gas without someone constantly on their back.

[Mr Brownstone 0]

"The easiest way to compare the managers is look at our prem placing under both managers. Lambert 12th hughton 11th tells you all you need really."

However Lambert''s side scored more points, more goals and won more games, so what does that tell you?

[Parma Ham's gone mouldy 2,462]

It can also be suggested that clubs with limited resources - less able to financially support the inevitably high turnover of footballers (that different managers "don''t fancy") that tends to follow the "boom and bust" messianic approach? In club building a squad of self- starters a good manager / club is laying the foundations for a long-lasting project. Higher quality players will arrive via progress/ success/ more finance in a relatively linear fashion and in a cultural way that would (arguably) mean that any good "club builder" manager could seamlessly assume the role and follow on from the inherent culture. It can be observed that - despite their huge wealth - Manchester United have chosen this path with Moyes over Mourinho (despite - no doubt - an initial superficial preference for Portuguese glamour from Manchester fan twitterati). The club cannot be beholden to the messianic verve of any manager and the team / squad must have an ongoing core of self- reliance regardless who the manager is.

[lake district canary 4,831]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]"The easiest way to compare the managers is look at our prem placing under both managers. Lambert 12th hughton 11th tells you all you need really."

However Lambert''s side scored more points, more goals and won more games, so what does that tell you?[/quote]

The records of both managers in terms of stats are not that different.  We drew three more matches than the previous year and lost one less than the previous year.    That penalty miss by Holt would just about have made things the same.   Small margins indeed.   The goal difference was only 3 between the two seasons.    The only real difference is thew the goals for and the goals against.   More goals scored but more goals against under Lambert,  less goals scored but less goals conceded under Hughton.    Lambert had three years at Norwich to build into the 2011-12 season.   Hughton came in cold and had to achieve straight away.   The second and third years of  Hughtons tenure are going to prove whether Hughton can  improve the goals scored count, hopefully keeping the goals conceded down too. 

Comparisons are easy, drawing the right conclusions are difficult.   Both Lambert''s and Hughton''s style work - but for different reasons.   It remains to be seen who will prove to be the more effective manager at this level.  I have a feeling they will both do well   - Lambert, in his positivity and ability to motivate,  Hughton, in his getting the players to play to the best of their ability for themselves - as Parma Ham says - "self reliance".   Both approaches require different attributes from players.  Of the players that are still here from Lambert''s time, some will adapt, those that can''t will have to move on.  

[Mr Brownstone 0]

"Lambert had three years at Norwich to build into the 2011-12 season."

Only he didn''t have the opportunity to build at all. Each of his 3 seasons at the club were spent in a different division, meaning both of the 2 summers he was here were spent carrying out major surgery on the squad that had just been promoted from the previous level, rather than building.

I''m not attempting to stir the Lambert vs Hughton debate and I''m not taking any swipes at Hughton but it just bugs me when people try and cheapen Lambert''s achievements here because they are still bitter about his departure.

He''ll go down in the history books as one of our greatest ever managers, hopefully one day we can all be in a position where we can appreciate his remarkable achievements without the bitterness and resentment. Maybe when the truth eventually comes out eh.

[YankeeCanary 0]

"Both approaches require different attributes from players.  Of the players that are still here from Lambert''s time, some will adapt, those that can''t will have to move on."  

LDC, try not to get your shorts in a twist because it''s me that''s responding but your input says "something" without saying anything. Try to finish your thought please so that there something of substance to debate. What different attributes do you  think is required from the players under the current manager versus the previous and, given that we have had a whole season to digest those different attributes required then who, in your opinion, have failed to live up to those different requirements?

[lake district canary 4,831]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]"Lambert had three years at Norwich to build into the 2011-12 season."

Only he didn''t have the opportunity to build at all. Each of his 3 seasons at the club were spent in a different division, meaning both of the 2 summers he was here were spent carrying out major surgery on the squad that had just been promoted from the previous level, rather than building.

I''m not attempting to stir the Lambert vs Hughton debate and I''m not taking any swipes at Hughton but it just bugs me when people try and cheapen Lambert''s achievements here because they are still bitter about his departure.

He''ll go down in the history books as one of our greatest ever managers, hopefully one day we can all be in a position where we can appreciate his remarkable achievements without the bitterness and resentment. Maybe when the truth eventually comes out eh.[/quote]

Who is trying to  belittle Lambert''s achievements on this thread?  Comparing different manager''s styles or discussing what motivates players is all that is being done as far as I can see.    I think most of us recognise that the two managers have different approaches, without necessarily putting one over he other.     The 11th and 12th position point someone made just shows how similar they have been in the final outcome.

The point you picked me up on - you can''t dispute that Lambert was here for three years and that his influence would then be greater than Hughton who has only had one year?    Lambert had two years to instill his philosophy/motivation technique - or whatever you want to call it -  to the start of his season in the premiership with us and bring together a group of players capable of competing at the highest level.   If  that is not building a team/squad,  I don''t know what is. 

[Mr Brownstone 0]

You miss my point entirely LDC.

[lake district canary 4,831]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]You miss my point entirely LDC.[/quote]

Hmm... and I thought that it was you who had missed the point.  Oh well........

[YankeeCanary 0]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]You miss my point entirely LDC.[/quote]

 

You made an excellent point, Mr. Brownstone, and stated it well.

[Mr Brownstone 0]

I think my mistake was in attempting to engage you in conversation. Schoolboy error.

[lake district canary 4,831]

My error was thinking you wanted to discuss, when all it turns out is you wanted was to turn this thread into a Lambert versus Hughton argument.   When I tried to talk to you about it you shut up shop and started  with the put downs. Very big of you.   

[Norfolk Mustard 106]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]"Lambert had three years at Norwich to build into the 2011-12 season." Only he didn''t have the opportunity to build at all. Each of his 3 seasons at the club were spent in a different division, meaning both of the 2 summers he was here were spent carrying out major surgery on the squad that had just been promoted from the previous level, rather than building. I''m not attempting to stir the Lambert vs Hughton debate and I''m not taking any swipes at Hughton but it just bugs me when people try and cheapen Lambert''s achievements here because they are still bitter about his departure. He''ll go down in the history books as one of our greatest ever managers, hopefully one day we can all be in a position where we can appreciate his remarkable achievements without the bitterness and resentment. Maybe when the truth eventually comes out eh.[/quote]

 

I agree about Paul Lambert already being one of our greatest-ever managers - his amazing record speaks for itself!

Just wondering; what do you consider to be the difference between ''carrying out major surgery'' and ''building''? Irrespective of the division a team is in, doesn''t that amount to the much same thing?

[Mr Brownstone 0]

"My error was thinking you wanted to discuss, when all it turns out is you wanted was to turn this thread into a Lambert versus Hughton argument. When I tried to talk to you about it you shut up shop and started with the put downs. Very big of you."

You really don''t listen to a word anyone says to you do you? That''s exactly what I just said I wasn''t doing. Do you ever wonder why so many posters get so utterly frustrated when trying to talk to you? Think there might be a reason for that?

And it was you who changed the tone of the conversation with your attempt at a sarcastic comback, so don''t bother trying to lay that at my door.

[Mr Brownstone 0]

"Just wondering; what do you consider to be the difference between ''carrying out major surgery'' and ''building''? Irrespective of the division a team is in, doesn''t that amount to the much same thing?"

I''d consider what Hughton is going to do this summer as building. He''s now got a solid group of players with 50+ games at this level, he''ll no doubt add more quality to that and the objective will be to improve on last season.

Lambert never had the opportunity to build and improve on the previous season because he never competed at the same level twice, if you get what I mean?

[lake district canary 4,831]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]"My error was thinking you wanted to discuss, when all it turns out is you wanted was to turn this thread into a Lambert versus Hughton argument. When I tried to talk to you about it you shut up shop and started with the put downs. Very big of you."

You really don''t listen to a word anyone says to you do you? That''s exactly what I just said I wasn''t doing. Do you ever wonder why so many posters get so utterly frustrated when trying to talk to you? Think there might be a reason for that?

And it was you who changed the tone of the conversation with your attempt at a sarcastic comback, so don''t bother trying to lay that at my door.[/quote]

You are wrong.   There was no sarcastic comments when I first responded to your points.  If you look back you will see that.  Also, I asked you  why you put "it just bugs me when people try and

cheapen Lambert''s achievements here because they are still bitter about

his departure" if you didn''t think it was happening on this thread?

[Mr Brownstone 0]

"Hmm... and I thought that it was you who had missed the point. Oh well........"

That, is a sarcastic comment.

My other comment was not aimed in your direction, and I didn''t say or imply it was. It was directed at a comment on the first page which read:

"The easiest way to compare the managers is look at our prem placing under both managers. Lambert 12th hughton 11th tells you all you need really."

Lambert took a team that had just conceded 7 at home in League One, to 12th in the Premier League in 3 seasons, without the help of a wealthy backer. Trying to claim that Hughton''s achievement of finishing 1 place higher (albeit with less points, less wins and less goals) after significantly strengthening the squad he inherited from Lambert makes him a better manager is hugely disrespectful in my book.

[lake district canary 4,831]

[quote user="Mr Brownstone"]"Hmm... and I thought that it was you who had missed the point. Oh well........"

That, is a sarcastic comment.

My other comment was not aimed in your direction, and I didn''t say or imply it was. It was directed at a comment on the first page which read:

"The easiest way to compare the managers is look at our prem placing under both managers. Lambert 12th hughton 11th tells you all you need really."

Lambert took a team that had just conceded 7 at home in League One, to 12th in the Premier League in 3 seasons, without the help of a wealthy backer. Trying to claim that Hughton''s achievement of finishing 1 place higher (albeit with less points, less wins and less goals) after significantly strengthening the squad he inherited from Lambert makes him a better manager is hugely disrespectful in my book.[/quote]

Ok, look, I''m not wanting to argue, but you dismissed a comment I made with "You missed the point".   No explanation.  No clarification.  I had been responding to you with respect and then that.  You had questioned a line I had written and I answered you in good faith.  If that isn''t good enough for you, fine, but if you don''t want discussion - don''t answer my posts!!

[morty 0]

Give it up Browstone, its never LDC thats in the wrong.